Lina's back!!!!

[MaroonMandy]

Totally random, but Lina says they pre-tear their toilet paper in preparation for the Shabbat. Why? Sorry, if this make me seem totally ignorant, but I have only a limited knowledge of the Jewish faith.

[stonefruit]

Totally random, but Lina says they pre-tear their toilet paper in preparation for the Shabbat. Why? Sorry, if this make me seem totally ignorant, but I have only a limited knowledge of the Jewish faith.

Ah! This I know :) So tearing toilet paper is a form of melacha (work) that is impermissible on shabbat - taking something in one form and carefully dividing it up into another for some use, thus creating something anew. See, e.g., http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/thirtynine.htm#4

[oscar]

Sometimes I feel sorry for Lina. It often seems like she is trying on various identities because she does not know who she really is. In this matter, however, her words and actions have lent credence to the supposition that she was intentionally misrepresenting herself as something she knows she is not. Moreover, she has ignored or responded defensively to those who have told her why doing this is ill-considered.

One of my brother's friends was raised in a Christian home, but decided to "infiltrate" Chabad House at her university, because she thought it would be so rad to scam her way into a Birthright Israel trip. Through this process, she discovered that she was actually Jewish by descent, and is now seriously pursuing Orthodox conversion. She says she was pressed hard about how she had initially approached the Jewish community under false pretenses, and was spurred to difficult introspection regarding her motivations and personal character. Now, several years later, she feels like she is being treated like any other sincere conversion candidate.

It's entirely possible for someone to begin with bad intentions and end up on a sincere path to learning, enlightenment or formal conversion. Since she seems to read here and all, I'd suggest that Lina put a little less effort into pre-tearing her toilet paper and a little more thought into why she wants to do this in the first place.

[lizzy]

Lina can do whatever she wants, no one is going to rip a box of matzo out of her hot little hands. However, what she's doing is not independent of context. There's a long history of Christians killing Jews over religion. I completely understand how a Jewish person may have a problem with a Christian co-opting the identity that Jews have died for - and then claiming to be better at Judaism when they know hardly anything about it. It's offensive and just as Lina has a right to butcher a lot of Hebrew words, people have a right to be offended because she's doing it. Context matters.

Not to mention the sneaky, deceitful conversion attempts that are also part and parcel of the Fake Jew movement. It's like a straight person pretending to be gay and infiltrating a community of gay people, but all the while they intend to fool others into going to therapy meant to turn them straight. It's not illegal but it's sure as hell unethical and disgusting.

(I know Lina has said that they don't intend to try to convert but she's been so underhanded about this that frankly I don't believe her for a second.)

Keep in mind also that she is doing all of this in a very public forum. That makes her open to public criticism from Christians, Jews, and anybody else who reads her blog. If she wanted to play Jewish in the privacy of her own home and Messianic community, that is one thing. But, she has a public blog, she comments regularly on her interpretation of Jewish custom and tradition, and she does it without (until yesterday) fully disclosing her affiliation. That is deceitful and there is a good argument to be made that she is bearing false witness against her neighbor, a violation of the 10 commandments in both the Christian and Jewish religions.

[Deleted03]

Lina can do whatever she wants, no one is going to rip a box of matzo out of her hot little hands. However, what she's doing is not independent of context. There's a long history of Christians killing Jews over religion. I completely understand how a Jewish person may have a problem with a Christian co-opting the identity that Jews have died for - and then claiming to be better at Judaism when they know hardly anything about it. It's offensive and just as Lina has a right to butcher a lot of Hebrew words, people have a right to be offended because she's doing it. Context matters.

Not to mention the sneaky, deceitful conversion attempts that are also part and parcel of the Fake Jew movement. It's like a straight person pretending to be gay and infiltrating a community of gay people, but all the while they intend to fool others into going to therapy meant to turn them straight. It's not illegal but it's sure as hell unethical and disgusting.

(I know Lina has said that they don't intend to try to convert but she's been so underhanded about this that frankly I don't believe her for a second.)

I don't buy either persecution - Jewish/Christian/Muslim arguments. Converts are always either too eager, always questionned, etc and Judaism because it's not prozelyte has higher standards to identify with the religion.

Even if she tries to lie to a rabbi, she wrote on her blog those things - and it's never completely deleted right? Plus on the other blog she was talked about and most certainly someone contacted the "real" rabbis around where she lives to warn them. She won't go through the "real" process that most Jews recognize so to their eyes they won't be Jewish - does not mean she has no right to call herself Jewish.

If she wants to identify herself with this community and be more serious about respecting all the requirements (and the hassle of it) more than other Jew might even do, then I have no pb with it. If she tries to evangelize Jews, they are big enough to do like we do when people show up at our door and say no. I just don't see why I would give a special status to that religion.

My only problem was with her lying, I don't care at all if she deludes herself or wants to identify with a community even if the community or some people of that community don't accept them.

[pomology]

I think this is fascinating, and I had no idea there were such things as Lubavitcher Messianic Hasids. (One of those 'the more you learn, the more you know you don't know' situations.) For a brief OT sojourn: are other Hasidic groups all concerned with bringing the Messiah? Are they as large as the Lubavitchers, or does the Lubavitcher group (Messianic and non-Messianic) actually make up a very large number of America's Hasidic Jews?

Actually, wanting to bring the Messiah is very antithetical to the origins of Hasidism. I mean, yes, they wanted the Messiah to come, but they breached the subject very, very carefully. The Besht (the Baal Shem Tov--the founder of Hasidim) came not too long after the Shabbatai Tzvi fiasco (where basically the entire Jewish community accepted that he was the Messiah and people only realized they might be wrong when he converted to Islam). Because they wanted to avoid comparisons with Shabbatai Tzvi, they were very careful to not say that specific actions and the Hasidic way of life would lead to the Messiah coming. Although the Besht did have visions where he went up to chat with the Messiah and the Messiah said that tikkun would be achieve and theoretically the Messiah would come if people followed his teachings. I've learned in the past few weeks in my Eastern European Jewish history class> The Lubavitchers are by far the largest Hasidic group in America today. I think they're the biggest in the world, too, but I'm not entirely certain. Most Hasidic dynasties were destroyed during the Holocaust.

[Beeks]

I don't buy either persecution - Jewish/Christian/Muslim arguments. Converts are always either too eager, always questionned, etc and Judaism because it's not prozelyte has higher standards to identify with the religion.

Even if she tries to lie to a rabbi, she wrote on her blog those things - and it's never completely deleted right? Plus on the other blog she was talked about and most certainly someone contacted the "real" rabbis around where she lives to warn them. She won't go through the "real" process that most Jews recognize so to their eyes they won't be Jewish - does not mean she has no right to call herself Jewish.

If she wants to identify herself with this community and be more serious about respecting all the requirements (and the hassle of it) more than other Jew might even do, then I have no pb with it. If she tries to evangelize Jews, they are big enough to do like we do when people show up at our door and say no. I just don't see why I would give a special status to that religion.

My only problem was with her lying, I don't care at all if she deludes herself or wants to identify with a community even if the community or some people of that community don't accept them.

Nobody is asking you to care or be offended on their behalf. I do see your point, and I can understand 100% why a non-Jewish person wouldn't care or fully understand the implications of what Lina is doing.

However, I think other people, especially actual Jewish people, have every right to be upset with her. And last time I checked she hadn't actually apologized for all her lying and deceit so....yeah I'm still annoyed.

[pomology]

Ah! This I know :) So tearing toilet paper is a form of melacha (work) that is impermissible on shabbat - taking something in one form and carefully dividing it up into another for some use, thus creating something anew. See, e.g., http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/thirtynine.htm#4

Ha, I always feel awkward when I'm at my Ortho relatives' house (or when I'm at the house of anybody who's shomer shabbes) and I rip toilet paper. Like, I don't know if that's what they do and if it's not if the fact that I'm doing it at their house on shabbes will upset them or not. But obviously I do it, because I have never encountered pre-ripped toilet paper in the bathroom.

[Beeks]

Ha, I always feel awkward when I'm at my Ortho relatives' house (or when I'm at the house of anybody who's shomer shabbes) and I rip toilet paper. Like, I don't know if that's what they do and if it's not if the fact that I'm doing it at their house on shabbes will upset them or not. But obviously I do it, because I have never encountered pre-ripped toilet paper in the bathroom.

It's totally fine - if they followed that rule they'd probably have a basket of pre-ripped paper in the bathroom. =)

I always feel weird if orthodox folks invite me for shabbat dinner and I drive. Like...should I park around the corner and walk? But they know where I live so they KNOW I didn't walk and they still invited me so.....? I just feel awkward about it!

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't buy either persecution - Jewish/Christian/Muslim arguments.

Could you clarify this, please? I may be misunderstanding you, but it's a historical fact that Christians have killed and persecuted Jews who refused to convert in many countries and over hundreds of years.

[pomology]

It's totally fine - if they followed that rule they'd probably have a basket of pre-ripped paper in the bathroom. =)

I always feel weird if orthodox folks invite me for shabbat dinner and I drive. Like...should I park around the corner and walk? But they know where I live so they KNOW I didn't walk and they still invited me so.....? I just feel awkward about it!

We actually have cousins that live half and hour away from us (in a town where we know a lot of people, including some really, really close family friends of ours) and for years they refused to invite us over on shabbes because it basically meant they were endorsing the sin of our driving (even though we often drive anyway). But over the years they've relaxed.

We have good friends who moved to same town and got much more strict about their religion, but they'll still invite us over, albeit in a totally roundabout way.

[MaroonMandy]

Thanks for answering the toilet paper question stonefruit!

[Deleted03]

Could you clarify this, please? I may be misunderstanding you, but it's a historical fact that Christians have killed and persecuted Jews who refused to convert in many countries and over hundreds of years.

I think all the religions have oppressed and been oppressed by the other religions. What does it mean today that they are evangelized? Are they being killed today by Christians for being Jews? I know history is important in the Jewish faith, but just as the claims of persecution of christians by muslims in some muslim countries do not mean that some people can't consider themselves christians who believe in a third prophet, it's not because Jews have been persecuted by some christians that some people can't consider themselves as jews who believe that Jesus is the awaited messiah...

That a Jew does not consider Lina as a fellow Jew is different from her not having the right to claim that identity.

[FaustianSlip]

If she wants to identify herself with this community and be more serious about respecting all the requirements (and the hassle of it) more than other Jew might even do, then I have no pb with it.

Except she's not "respecting all the requirements... more than any other Jew might do." She's certainly not respecting the requirements of conversion before, y'know, claiming that she's Jewish, and even when it comes to her and her husband's observance of Shabbat and other mitzvot, she shows a fundamental misunderstanding of halacha, basic terminology and has been adopting really weird ways of observing various customs pretty much since her blog started. She says she's pre-tearing her toilet paper... but she and hubby there hopped in the sack right after a courthouse wedding. They "keep kosher," but a couple of months ago, they were eating at Olive Garden. I'm not someone who claims to be totally consistent about which mitzvot I'm anal about and which I'm not, but I'm also not keeping a public blog and self-righteously lecturing other people about how they should be doing things or claiming that I'm more zealous than "regular" Jews, either.

Also, not trying to be jerky, but for someone who keeps saying over and over that you don't care about Lina and have no problems with what she's doing, you sure seem to spend a lot of time on these threads. Just sayin'.

Lissar summed up the issues surrounding Lina very well.

Also, on the toilet paper front, it's also an issue because toilet paper is typically pre-perforated, and by tearing it, you're completing the tear. "Finishing" is another one of the malachot, so you're breaking two for the price of one! It's also an issue when you open new food items, like cereal, so some people try to do that ahead of time.

[Beeks]

I think all the religions have oppressed and been oppressed by the other religions. What does it mean today that they are evangelized? Are they being killed today by Christians for being Jews? I know history is important in the Jewish faith, but just as the claims of persecution of christians by muslims in some muslim countries do not mean that some people can't consider themselves christians who believe in a third prophet, it's not because Jews have been persecuted by some christians that some people can't consider themselves as jews who believe that Jesus is the awaited messiah...

That a Jew does not consider Lina as a fellow Jew is different from her not having the right to claim that identity.

Jews are killed every day for being Jews. Jews have been persecuted for being Jews for THOUSANDS of years. Yes, probably all religions have been persecuted at one time or another but I think Jews are somewhat unique in the level and frequency of persecution they have faced and continue to face. That is partly why it's so offensive for Lina to do what she's doing - Jews have been literally DYING to proclaim that Jesus is not our messiah. For Lina to waltz in and say "oh it's so easy you can do it both ways!" with no nod to that history is stupid at best.

Again, Lina can consider herself whatever she wants. I don't think anyone has said she can't call herself whatever she wants. Nobody is trying to get her blog taken down, etc. We are simply stating that saying something does not make it true. So go ahead and call yourself a Jew, Lina. And we Jews will go ahead and call you a Christian. And we will continue to alert those thinking of conversion or Jews retuning to a religious life from a secular one that your blog does not represent normative Judaism or Jewish practices. Free speech - it works both ways!

[Deleted03]

Except she's not "respecting all the requirements... more than any other Jew might do." She's certainly not respecting the requirements of conversion before, y'know, claiming that she's Jewish, and even when it comes to her and her husband's observance of Shabbat and other mitzvot, she shows a fundamental misunderstanding of halacha, basic terminology and has been adopting really weird ways of observing various customs pretty much since her blog started. She says she's pre-tearing her toilet paper... but she and hubby there hopped in the sack right after a courthouse wedding. They "keep kosher," but a couple of months ago, they were eating at Olive Garden. I'm not someone who claims to be totally consistent about which mitzvot I'm anal about and which I'm not, but I'm also not keeping a public blog and self-righteously lecturing other people about how they should be doing things or claiming that I'm more zealous than "regular" Jews, either.

Also, not trying to be jerky, but for someone who keeps saying over and over that you don't care about Lina and have no problems with what she's doing, you sure seem to spend a lot of time on these threads. Just sayin'.

Lissar summed up the issues surrounding Lina very well.

Also, on the toilet paper front, it's also an issue because toilet paper is typically pre-perforated, and by tearing it, you're completing the tear. "Finishing" is another one of the malachot, so you're breaking two for the price of one! It's also an issue when you open new food items, like cereal, so some people try to do that ahead of time.

I said I don't care once she explained her position ;)

Inversely christians could be outraged that she believes in Jesus and does not to call herself a Christian. I just feel like Judaism is being put on this special scale when we've had plenty of other arguments about no true scots...

I won't say anything else, because obviously the Jewish posters are very upset about that and maybe i'm just not understanding this issue because I'm not Jewish.

[Beeks]

Not sure if somebody has already posted this, but in the comments on her latest post Lina says they do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate - so that's a point in her favor. I am so, so curious how they can think Jesus fulfilled the requirements for the Jewish messiah. She links to places like Aish.com, which has a great article called "Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus" that lays out all the ways Jesus failed to fulfill the requirements for messiah....I would love to hear how they get around that.

Does anyone know how other messianic Jews reconcile this? I am so curious.

[Deleted03]

actually I have a question:

so you can use electricity during shabbat but can't make physical efforts to use it (turn on/off) so you could leave the TV on all along Shabbat? Coz I don'T understand the turning the hot plates on for all shabbat? you keep food warm and use electricity (so obviously people in the electrical plant are working) and yet she says she turns off electronic devices? I'm confused...

[Guest Anonymous]

actually I have a question:

so you can use electricity during shabbat but can't make physical efforts to use it (turn on/off) so you could leave the TV on all along Shabbat? Coz I don'T understand the turning the hot plates on for all shabbat? you keep food warm and use electricity (so obviously people in the electrical plant are working) and yet she says she turns off electronic devices? I'm confused...

Modern technology has given us delay cycles on dishwashers and washing machines. No need to turn the power on or off. My oven (GE) has a sabbath mode. I can slap food in there set the time and voila it takes care of business without me lighting an evil electric spark.

In my parents day, sabbath goys would turn lights on and off for Jews, now we have electric timers. Actually observing the sabbath today is a lot less problematic , than it was before electric power and Jews were banking fires for cooking and heat. I know affluent Jews who have two ovens, two stoves, and two dishwashers, and timers set on everything.

[Witsec1]

Inversely christians could be outraged that she believes in Jesus and does not to call herself a Christian. I just feel like Judaism is being put on this special scale when we've had plenty of other arguments about no true scots...

I won't say anything else, because obviously the Jewish posters are very upset about that and maybe i'm just not understanding this issue because I'm not Jewish.

I'm not Jewish, but I understand it. On the one hand, you have a group that has struggled to keep its identity in the face of persecution, and on the other hand, you have the religious majority that persecuted them and has used all kinds of pressure to get them to renounce their religious identity. It seems to me like that religious minority has the right to define themselves, and not be defined by members of the religious majority.

I have to say, though, all the discussion about tearing or not tearing toilet paper makes me glad to be atheist. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

I said I don't care once she explained her position ;)

Inversely christians could be outraged that she believes in Jesus and does not to call herself a Christian. I just feel like Judaism is being put on this special scale when we've had plenty of other arguments about no true scots...

I won't say anything else, because obviously the Jewish posters are very upset about that and maybe i'm just not understanding this issue because I'm not Jewish.

As a Christian I think she's being ridiculous as well - it's like she thinks Christianity isn't special enough for her on its own merits, and the fact that she wants to claim Jesus while denying that she's a Christian makes me wish that she would step on a lego.

It's the history and context of Judaism that makes her glomming onto it more objectionable. (In my opinion, I am not Jewish and in no way do I presume to speak for people who are.) Christians don't have the widespread fear of being forced to assimilate or else wiped out. Early Christians were persecuted but we've been the favored majority now for a really long time, and done the lion's (pun intended) share of the persecuting. There's something like 2 billion Christians in the world, and only about 14 million Jews. It's very difficult for a tiny minority to oppress a huge, privileged majority.

This is a very imperfect example but it's the best thing I could cobble together -

It's sort of like when feminists get together to have a conversation about womens' issues, and some dude starts bawling "what about the men?" and trying to make it about him. No. Straight guys have a whole lot of venues to do their thing, it's okay for there to be a space where they aren't in charge. Christianity is like the straight white guy of religions - we have a lot of power compared to others and sometimes we need to sit down and shut up and realize that not everything is ours for the taking.

ETA: What FloraPoste said. She got it down in a more succinct way while I was wrestling with my unwieldy post.

[Guest Anonymous]

I just got a chance to view the blog today, boy talk about the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Lina and her beloved are having a hard time responding to all of the comments.

I don't believe in magic deities anymore. I understand how personal belief shifts changes and can be fluid. Lina is too stoopid to cover her tracks and far to dishonest to admit she is not settled on a path. These head covering frauds piss me off because I had family die for their beliefs.

[Witsec1]

Also, what does the "no true scotsman" fallacy have to do with this? No True Scotsman does not mean "no definition is ever valid'. Even the fact that definitions change does not mean that no definition is ever valid. You either support the idea that faith groups have the right to define themselves, or you don't. Which does NOT mean that anyone wants to keep Lina from being whatever she is. Let your freak flag fly!

[formergothardite]

I'm totally confused about her belief in Jesus/Yeshua. Can you beleive he was the Messiah and still be an Orthodox Jew? She is acting like saying Jesus was the Messiah who just wasn't God incarnate makes it all okay and she is now a Orthodox Jew.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm totally confused about her belief in Jesus/Yeshua. Can you beleive he was the Messiah and still be an Orthodox Jew? She is acting like saying Jesus was the Messiah who just wasn't God incarnate makes it all okay and she is now a Orthodox Jew.

I think she just approved a load of comments because there were only three earlier and now there's twenty. And I don't know what the hell she's trying to say, but I think that's mostly because she doesn't know either.

It's lovely of her to lecture the Jewish people on why she's right and they're wrong, though. :roll:

@Denver Yid: My husband and I are acquainted with many believers in Yeshua who have successfully undergone Orthodox conversion with a non-Messianic beit din.

Our belief in Yeshua is not of the idolatrous kind.

As for the thousands upon thousands of Jews who have been killed rather than accept conversion, I am deeply grieved over that. But it is Christians who have done this, not Messianic believers practicing Orthodox Judaism. This issue is one of the many reasons why my husband and I have left Christianity.

Lina, were those converts lying liars? Because I have a feeling that they were.

You're not a Christian because you're a Messianic believer? What kind of weaselly bullshit are you trying to sell here?