Lina's back!!!!

[Guest Anonymous]

The most worrying thing to me about Lina, is that after wanting marriage and time alone with Anthony for so very long, she is here, practically still on honeymoon but choosing to spend time online writing essays about Judaism....

[Sola]

The most worrying thing to me about Lina, is that after wanting marriage and time alone with Anthony for so very long, she is here, practically still on honeymoon but choosing to spend time online writing essays about Judaism....

Well if TT is back at work then Lina is probably bored during the day. Keeping a small apartment clean and tidy isn't going to take long, laundry for two people will be minimal and cooking for two wont take up her whole day.

[Deleted03]

I have been fascinated by this thread and am very grateful for the education about Judaism.

I enjoyed reading Skylar's earlier posts, but have to say that I am somewhat lost reading this one... it reads to me like a lot of confused and almost paranoid rambling. Statistically significant conclusions from anecdotal evidence - what's that about?

yep. guess she did not take stats in college...

I must say I find it very funny that depressions have to be blamed on bad converts rather than on the rabbis who procede to make some people's life hell.

Also blaming the converts for the organized religion that un converts decades of a rabbi's converts. Wouldn't there be a better option... like contacting those people and re-evaluate them where they are?

I understand the point, I just find it incredibly short-sighted to put all the blame on the bad converts rather than on the organized religion. The blindness starts early I guess ;)

[FaustianSlip]

Much as I hate to say it (and I know this will sound like it's contradicting that other post I made where I said Judaism isn't anti-convert, but bear with me), Skylar's not being all that paranoid. Google the "conversion crisis," and you'll get an idea of what she's talking about. Basically, anyone who converts under any recognized denomination of Judaism can immigrate to Israel if they meet a couple of other criteria, mostly post-conversion time spent in the community in which they converted. They're entitled to Israeli citizenship and immigration programs, just like anyone else. Problem is, things like marriages and burials are not handled by the secular government in Israel. They're streamed according to your religion, and the Jewish court system is handled by an increasingly Haredi group of rabbis. So you might be an Israeli citizen, but if you want to get married (or if you're Jewish but want to marry someone who isn't) or get buried in a Jewish cemetery, you've got to deal with these guys, who are extremely right wing and increasingly paranoid about "insincere" converts slipping through the process and thus may or may not consider you Jewish enough to, say, marry another Jew or get buried in a Jewish cemetery. There are no civil options for these things (though Israel will recognize a marriage performed abroad, so a lot of people just go to Cyprus, get hitched and come back).

It used to be that this was only really an issue for Reform and Conservative converts; if you had an Orthodox conversion, you were almost certainly fine, regardless of who your rabbi was, unless they were someone completely nuts or something. But in 2006, the Israeli rabbinate retroactively rescinded the conversions of a bunch of people who had been converted by one particular rabbi. It was basically a political stunt; the rabbi in question was Modern Orthodox, as I recall, and significantly farther to the left than the Haredim running the Rabbinate. He was, so far as I'm aware, firmly Orthodox, but it didn't matter. So the Rabbinate revokes all of these conversions, which subsequently throws into question the status of any children the converts had, marriages into which the converts had entered, et cetera. Suddenly, a lot of Orthodox converts abruptly find themselves potentially in the same situation non-Orthodox converts face (and, in some ways, worse- Reform and Conservative converts bypass the Rabbinate entirely when applying for citizenship, going instead through the secular Interior Ministry, while Orthodox converts have to satisfy the Rabbinate that they meet the requirements for immigration). People were understandably freaking out. The Rabbinate has since issued a short list of rabbis and batei din that it considers "qualified" to administer conversions. If you go through a rabbi on that list, most of whom are more right-leaning, your conversion is good should you move to Israel (at least, it's good for the moment). Go off-list, and it becomes a case-by-case thing. This is an oversimplification of the situation, but I'm trying to explain what Skylar's talking about. I think she has a more detailed post about it on her blog. She may be a bit paranoid, but it's not without pretty good reason, frankly.

The problem is that Judaism doesn't have a central hierarchy like most Christian denominations. Historically, religious and legal decisions have been established by local communities, and that also applied to converts. But in this day and age, when we're not all living and marrying within isolated shtetls where everyone has the same modes of practice, things get messy. I'm also of the opinion that certain sectors in the Israeli religious establishment would like nothing better than to set themselves up as some kind of Jewish papacy equivalent, the arbiters of what is and is not "real" Judaism (and thus, who are and are not "real" Jews). It's a huge problem that I think is primarily political, where the converts are basically being used as pawns and have no real control over what's going on. I didn't get the impression that Skylar was blaming "bad converts" for these issues, only that her point is that when people like Lina crop up, given the current atmosphere, it not only reflects badly on the individual convert that isn't sincere, or even on that convert's rabbi, but can have a chain reaction that impacts a hell of a lot of other people. That's a point I've made to Lina myself in her comments (obviously, it didn't take). It's not really down to the converts or their rabbis, but legitimate conversion candidates have to think about these things, because if their rabbi is the one that Lina dupes into converting her and is found out, they could end up having their own conversions declared null and void.

All of these issues, incidentally, are one reason (amongst many) that I opted against pursuing an Orthodox conversion.

[TheJewAmongUs]

The most worrying thing to me about Lina, is that after wanting marriage and time alone with Anthony for so very long, she is here, practically still on honeymoon but choosing to spend time online writing essays about Judaism....

I'm sure they're writing the blog together at this point. Lina has the audience and AJ has the message. Plus they have 12 days per month when they can't touch, so might as well compose a blog post from across the room.

[pimpom]

This sketch of Goodness Graciuos Me seemed very fitting:

[HijabiLady]

I am very late in the game on this but I wanted to address a previous poster who said she/he knew people who said Jesus was the Messiah and also identified as Muslim. If they are identifying Jesus as divine/godhead/son of God then this is antithetical to being Muslim. The first thing a Muslim declares is the shahada, "There is no god except Allah. and Mohammed is His final messenger."

We do not assign partners to God, this is referred to as shirk and is the highest and most unforgivable sin in Islam. There is a well known cult called Nation of Islam, these folks are definitely misguided (by the terms of Islam) and often try to portray themselves as "real" Muslims. But the man who founded their cult claimed to be Prophet Mohammed reincarnated (something we absolutely do not believe in, reincarnation) and eventually said he was Allah in the flesh. If you ask a practitioner of NOI what they are they will tell you Muslim, but this is patently false. It is no different than say...a follower of David Koresh calling themselves a Christian because David Koresh claimed to be Christ come again.

Calling oneself a Jew but believing in Jesus as the Messiah reveals she is not versed in the Torah and Tanach but rather likes to use Hebrew and Yiddish as a proof to her "jewishness." But 99% of the Jewish scholars, who have been learning this the majority of their adult life, she is not Jewish in the ethnic nor spiritual sense. If she truly believe that Jesus is the messiah then I want to see her proof. I want to see the research as well as the sources of her research. And if that source is a "Messianic Jew" synagogue (*cough Christian church in disguise cough*) then she is full of it and has ulterior motives to be a Christian missionary incognito.

[ChunkyBarbie]

Reading some of the prior posts, made me wonder...I can totally see Lina and TT thinking it would be like totally awesome fer sure to live in Isreal!!! After all, it is the Holy Land and they are Jewstian doing it right. Weird thoughts like this, really scare me. They are that deluded IMO.

[ChunkyBarbie]

Thank you FaustianSlip and HijabiLady. Your explanations are very clear and educational. These have been the best threads we have had in a long time, IMO.

Edited for riffling.

[Guest Anonymous]

Reading some of the prior posts, made me wonder...I can totally see Lina and TT thinking it would be like totally awesome fer sure to live in Isreal!!! After all, it is the Holy Land and they are Jewstian doing it right. Weird thoughts like this, really scare me. They are that deluded IMO.

There is a movement among messianics to go to Israel and 'minister'. And cries from the messianics that the ultra orthodox are persecuting them.

[ChunkyBarbie]

There is a movement among messianics to go to Israel and 'minister'. And cries from the messianics that the ultra orthodox are persecuting them.

Why am I not surprised. I can't decide what they love more "ministering/soul winning" or feeling persecuted. Seriously, the movement described above is what people need to keep in mind, not how pretty, sweet in e-mails or naive Lina can be. If she is such a lovely person why would she allign herself with someone like TT. I know I desribed her before as emotionally lost, and I think she is, but that doesn't lesson the danger she can become to herself and others through cults and cult-like behavior and the blantant disregard and disrespect to an ancient and established religion. Judaism has survived by the grace of G-d and its true people with out Lina and TT and their ilk, they need to accept this and go the frick away! IMO.

[bionicmlle]

Lina and TT could be a case of folie à deux.

I found TT's most recent comment about "their blog" interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if his love of legalism drove this comment - "You won't find us referring to us being jewish in our blog" to him may mean "There hasn't been mention of us referring to ourselves as "Jews" since we've been married and it has been our blog. I take no responsibility over what she said when she remained under th headship of her father."

[ChunkyBarbie]

Lina and TT could be a case of folie à demux.

I found TT's most recent comment about "their blog" interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if his love of legalism drove this comment - "You won't find us referring to us being jewish in our blog" to him may mean "There hasn't been mention of us referring to ourselves as "Jews" since we've been married and it has been our blog. I take no responsibility over what she said when she remained under th headship of her father."

Interesting. I think Lina may find submitting to her headship less charming and more difficult than she bargained for, especially since she apparently did whatever the heck she wanted under her parents' roof.

[masagoroll]

Remember the good old days when Lina lived at her parents' house and did whatever she wanted and then bitched about them for letting her do whatever she wanted? Because she wanted them to MAKE her stay home and TELL her college was bad and CHOOSE a beau for her? That was so stupid that it was almost awesome. Except for her parents.

[ChunkyBarbie]

It was totally okay for her parents to tell her what to do as long as it was something she wanted to do...Lina Logic.

[Beeks]

The thing with Lina is that she actually seems to be SHOCKED that anyone might find her calling herself Jewish offensive. TT seems a little more aware - maybe because he's been raised some strain of Messianic? Who the hell knows. But this girl has had to be SERIOUSLY sheltered from the big wide world if she thinks putting on a headscarf and adopting some traditions without really understanding them is the same as converting to a religion....and that everyone is going to be just A-okay with that.

Come to think of it, I wonder if Lina has ever met an actual Jewish person in real life.

Are you kidding? Lina knows tons of Jewish people! Orthodox ones!!!! Who believe in Yeshua!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[onlyorganic]

If you ask a practitioner of NOI what they are they will tell you Muslim, but this is patently false. It is no different than say...a follower of David Koresh calling themselves a Christian because David Koresh claimed to be Christ come again.

Not to get off topic, but the Branch Davidians were using the Book of Revelation and David Koresh's interpretation that he was the "Sinful Messiah", Christ come again. In other words, they were deciphering the last book of The Bible to fit their own history. What Lina and Muslims who believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah are doing is going specifically against their religion and exhibiting faith in someone forbidden by the very basis of the religion they claim to be a part of.

[FaustianSlip]

I am very late in the game on this but I wanted to address a previous poster who said she/he knew people who said Jesus was the Messiah and also identified as Muslim. If they are identifying Jesus as divine/godhead/son of God then this is antithetical to being Muslim. The first thing a Muslim declares is the shahada, "There is no god except Allah. and Mohammed is His final messenger."

Yeah, the woman I was thinking of was an ordained, Episcopal priest. Looks like she was defrocked, but only after three years (!) of practicing both religions. Here is an article. I was as confused when I originally read about this lady as I usually am reading Lina's stuff. I mean, I know Episcopalianism is a big tent and all, but come on. She tries to justify her position in the article, but it doesn't make sense to me, and I feel about that the same way I would feel about someone like TT becoming a rabbi. If you're clergy, your job is to be a spiritual role model and adviser for your congregants. In order to do that, you need to fall within some range of accepted, normative practice for your movement, which includes not having totally off the wall beliefs or divided religious loyalties. That includes, uh, minor details like not converting to another religion, not believing that another religion's savior is your current religion's messiah, et cetera. If I had a rabbi who showed up one day and was all, "Oh, by the way, I totally converted to Islam yesterday. Cool, right?" I would freak out. Not because I have anything against Islam, but because I would be wondering what the heck my rabbi was doing, how he was making this all fit together in a Jewish context, et cetera. I can only imagine how this woman's parish felt when they found out. I'm kind of shocked that she was able to get away with practicing both for three years.

[Jewess]

Okay. First of all, just as a point of information, an eruv doesn't have anything at all to do with driving on Shabbos. If you're Orthodox, there is no allowance (heter, if you want to use the technical term) for driving on Shabbos. If you're Conservative, there was a ruling by the Conservative ruling body that allows for driving on Shabbat, but only to and from synagogue, and only in the event that you have no other way to access communal prayer. The ruling itself is still really controversial, and a lot of shomer Shabbos, Conservative Jews won't hold by it. The ruling applies regardless of the presence of an eruv, since what an eruv does is allow people within its borders to carry things in the public domain (namely, babies, prayer books, et cetera, although not umbrellas, for reasons I won't get into here). Just FYI.

Uh... umbrellas. If you're talking about conservative Judaism, perhaps. I don't know about the conservative laws. I do know that according to the orthodox interpretation of jewish law, opening an umbrella is inherently forbidden, as it is considered building/erecting (like you're putting up a mini tent), and even that is forbidden, no matter whether there is an eruv or not, or whether you're outside or in. And carrying an umbrella with no eruv is also forbidden by orthodox Jews.

[Jewess]

Defrauding, that's interesting because Beit Shalom identifies itself as "Messianic Jewish" on its website. It's strange that Lina is making a big deal about not fitting in to a messianic community if she attends a messianic congregation. Apparently the term is good enough for them, but not for her.

I just feel the need to say that just because someone attends a certain place of worship and is part of a community there doesn't mean that they actually identify and agree with every belief their place of worship espouses.

For example, my husband and I are not Hasidic, but were part of a Hasidic congregation for 3 years. Why? Because it was the better option for us than the other places of worship, and we liked certain aspects of the prayer service there, even if we didn't agree with many things or practice like they do.

Now we're part of a religious zionist congregation, and no, we're not religious zionists either, and much of how we practice our faith is very different than how nearly everyone else in our congregation practices.

Why do we pray in a place of worship that doesn't have the same values as we do? Because its the best option, and we want to be part of a community, even if we don't believe exactly the same things. And because there aren't synagogues for every different type of Jew, and my husband and I are a bit eclectic, we take what speaks to us from various parts of Orthodox Judaism.

And I've been called all sorts of negative things for that from various orthodox jews.

So in a way, I understand Lina and TT's frustration when they are just taking what speaks to them from various places, because honestly, I think many of us do the same.

The difference between them and me though is I don't claim to be something I'm not. I don't claim to be x type of orthodox Jew, I just say I'm a mishmash. If Lina and TT just said "We believe in Jesus, we also really like certain things about Orthodox Judaism and incorporate them into our lives" but didn't make claims like "We practice orthodox Judaism" or "You can convert to judaism and still believe in Jesus uh I mean Yah uh I mean Hashem uh I mean Yeshua"... they'd get quite a bit less criticism. Still some though, because no matter what they claim they are, they still are trying to proseletyze their made up religion to others through their blog, and claim to be experts on things they know nothing about

[Jewess]

Let me break Lina down for y’all --

Also, I’m pretty sure that halacha is basically cannot be pluralized as it doesn’t refer to specific laws but the entire body of Jewish law.

Actually, halacha is "Jewish law", but if you're referring to many specific laws, it certainly does get pluralized.

Some do, some don't. There's no religious requirement for that, but there are kaballistic reasons for it. My husband wears his kippah to bed, but just his regular one, and it falls off while he's sleeping and every morning involves a hunt for his kippah before he goes to work. A special sleep kippa that doesn't fall off and doesn't involve losing his kippah every night/morning would make our mornings that much less stressful.

[Jewess]

I think this is fascinating, and I had no idea there were such things as Lubavitcher Messianic Hasids. (One of those 'the more you learn, the more you know you don't know' situations.) For a brief OT sojourn: are other Hasidic groups all concerned with bringing the Messiah? Are they as large as the Lubavitchers, or does the Lubavitcher group (Messianic and non-Messianic) actually make up a very large number of America's Hasidic Jews?

Chabad/Lubavitch does a lot of outreach, and therefore their group has grown very large. I don't know their exact numbers but I know that in the US there are also huge numbers of Satmer Hasidic Jews, who are totally different than Lubavitchers, who practice a totally totally totally different type of chassidut. They're pretty much night and day apart from each other, while still both officially on the orthodox spectrum.

Satmer is what you'd call fundie Jewish.

In other parts of the world, the huuuuge chassidic groups are Gur and Breslov. Gur is even more extremist than Satmer, and its followers mostly live in Israel. Breslov is kind of a hippy feel good chassidut, they also do Jewish outreach, and they try to focus on bringing God into your life and being happy. Lina has actually quoted quote a few breslov rabbis on her blog as it speaks to her- it also speaks to me, but I wish Lina would know more about Judaism before she actually tried to "teach it". Breslov isn't fundie for the most part, but there are fundie/extreme ultra orthodox Jews who identify as breslov.

And no, no other Hasidic group other than Lubavitch have such a focus on the messiah. Thats something unique to Lubavitch.

[Jewess]

Here's a possably stupid question, but is there some sort of Jewish central registry or something that would identify who the real Jews are in the first place?

No, however, when someone wants to get married by an Orthodox rabbi, and often even to get accepted by an Orthodox Jewish day school, or want to make aliya to Israel, they need to prove their jewishness by showing a valid ketuba from their parents' wedding, or show their mom's parents' ketuba.

Alternatively, they need to show conversion documentation. So there isn't a huge database, but there are some ways to prove it.

Some people/groups don't have a way to prove their Jewishness, and than an Orthodox Jewish Beit Din often will make them do a "giyur lechumra", conversion for the sake of clarity, to remove all doubt.

[Jewess]

She wrote :

My husband and I are acquainted with many believers in Yeshua who have successfully undergone Orthodox conversion with a non-Messianic beit din.

To me that seems to say that they were believers in Jesus who somehow managed an Orthodix conversion, but I guess it could mean that they were converted first and then found the Jesus love. But I still think she is making it all up.

Oh, there certainly are some people who convert orthodox under false pretenses, and then missionize. Its huge scandals when these things get found out, but we had a family locally like that, who after they were revealed, pretty much got run out of town. They were found out because they had a website teaching others how to be undercover christians posing as jews to proseletyze.

[Jewess]

Last Saturday afternoon I was coming home from the store and drove by the local Chabad synagouge and down the street there was a man and boy wearing a kippah, a woman in long sleeves and a scarf and a hispanic nanny pushing the pram so the wife didn't have to work on Sabbath. I would imagine she does all the cooking on Saturday so the wife doesn't have to break shabbas.

Nope. Food cooked on the sabbath cannot be eaten on the sabbath, even if the person who cooked it was not jewish.