Peter Bradrick files for Divorce

[gustava]

Why would fundies engage in a pagan ritual like handfasting?

 

[Palimpsest]

14 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Does this mean there are single sex conservative Protestant schools out there? I've never heard of such a concept, since Protestants in general were opposed to private schools until the 1950s.

Opposed to?  Where do you get this idea?  Are you trying to say that Protestants were more likely to support public (state funded) education?  Would that it were so.

The vast majority of private schools in the UK were started by church foundations.  They were not all Catholic - post-Henry VIII.  In the US (and right off the top of my head) private schools founded by Protestants: Phillips (Andover) 1778, Lawrence Academy 1792, Emma Willard 1821, Carson Long Military Academy 1836, Sidwell Friends 1883, the Groton School 1884 ...  Most, if not all, of these are now co-ed.   Some would have been more evangelical and "Christian" than others.

There are quite a few single sex really Fundie schools out there but, like Christian Fundamentalism, they are more recent (starting early 20th century).  The notorious Hephzibah House was founded in 1971.  I hope they aren't all that bad.

[Lurky]

Very definitely, Protestants weren't against private schools.  In the UK, most private schools are at least nominally Church of England - it's much, much rarer to find a Catholic private school in the UK, for example. 

These schools aren't religious in nature, and the vast majority will take children of all religions or none, but they'll have prayers at assembly, and probably Chapel Services ever now and then.  And there are tons that were deliberately set up with some kind of religious idea (from eg a rich Elizabethan founding a school for poor boys an an insurance policy because they're worried about the after-life, that over the centuries morphs into a fee-paying school; or from one of the Non-Conformist men who made money in the Industrial Revolution setting up a school, because of his beliefs, that becomes fee-paying later)

[Howl]

Random speculation here, but currently in the US, the emphasis for really conservative Christians is on homeschooling, so no need for sex-segregated schools. 

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Opposed to?  Where do you get this idea?  Are you trying to say that Protestants were more likely to support public (state funded) education?  Would that it were so.

The vast majority of private schools in the UK were started by church foundations.  They were not all Catholic - post-Henry VIII.  In the US (and right off the top of my head) private schools founded by Protestants: Phillips (Andover) 1778, Lawrence Academy 1792, Emma Willard 1821, Carson Long Military Academy 1836, Sidwell Friends 1883, the Groton School 1884 ...  Most, if not all, of these are now co-ed.   Some would have been more evangelical and "Christian" than others.

There are quite a few single sex really Fundie schools out there but, like Christian Fundamentalism, they are more recent (starting early 20th century).  The notorious Hephzibah House was founded in 1971.  I hope they aren't all that bad.

I'm speaking specifically of conservative Protestants in the US, especially the South. I understand that the UK has a very different history in this regard. Until the 1950s, Protestant fundies in the US were generally opposed to private religious schools, because they associated such things with Catholics and thought Catholics were trying to avoid assimilation by segregating themselves (this charge is true in the sense that many public schools tried to convert Catholic chuldren by making them read from the KJV Bible and pray the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer; Google Philadelphia Bible Riots for how this led to sectarian violence). In many regions, especially the South, Protestant fundies ran the school boards, so they could use the public schools to reflect their values. This changed in the 1950s when Brown v. Board of education was handed down, and suddenly fundies began establishing "Christian schools" to get around orders to integrate public schools. Among these was Jerry Falwell, whose Liberty U first began as a "segregation academy." Fundies might say that the push for Christian schools and homeschooling started when prayer was taken out of schools, but it's really because they thought children of different races sitting together in school was a slippery slope to the gulag.

[refugee]

18 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Do none of these people see that this process doesn't work?  Don't they care?  Don't they care about the damage they've done to their daughters' lives?  Or are they so fixated on their nutty beliefs that they forge ahead with them whether or not they work, conveniently ignoring the damaged lives of wives and children and unhappy marriages?

I think it's self-deception and blind hubris. "They obviously didn't do it right. We are getting it right. We'll show the world how it's done."

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I'm speaking specifically of conservative Protestants in the US, especially the South.

Thanks for the clarification.  So your original sentence should have read: 

20 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I've never heard of such a concept, since [some] Protestant [Fundamentalists]  in general [the United States especially in the south]  were opposed to [Catholic] private schools until the 1950s.

Words matter.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

5 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I'm speaking specifically of conservative Protestants in the US, especially the South. I understand that the UK has a very different history in this regard. Until the 1950s, Protestant fundies in the US were generally opposed to private religious schools, because they associated such things with Catholics and thought Catholics were trying to avoid assimilation by segregating themselves (this charge is true in the sense that many public schools tried to convert Catholic chuldren by making them read from the KJV Bible and pray the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer; Google Philadelphia Bible Riots for how this led to sectarian violence). In many regions, especially the South, Protestant fundies ran the school boards, so they could use the public schools to reflect their values. This changed in the 1950s when Brown v. Board of education was handed down, and suddenly fundies began establishing "Christian schools" to get around orders to integrate public schools. Among these was Jerry Falwell, whose Liberty U first began as a "segregation academy." Fundies might say that the push for Christian schools and homeschooling started when prayer was taken out of schools, but it's really because they thought children of different races sitting together in school was a slippery slope to the gulag.

Thanks for mentioning the Philadelphia riots-- I need to read up. Somebody I know on facebook has been on a tear about putting prayer back in schools. I vaguely knew that "school prayer" has an anti-Catholic history but I have been holding my tongue because I didn't know much about the specifics.

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Thanks for the clarification.  So your original sentence should have read: 

Words matter.

I think you knew what she meant and certainly could have asked for clarification in a less combative way. We'll all had posts where we could have been more clear. I don't understand where your nastiness is coming from here. 

I'll be honest, I don't understand your approach to how you want discussions on FJ to go. You mock any poster who wants to discuss wedding dresses or mentions that they think So-and-so Bates has nice style.

But at the same time you seem to have a real issue with a poster like Cleopatra, who adds a lot of the substantive discussions and is diligent in pointing out the historical and social dangers of Fundamentalism. 

I'm probably overstepping here, but I just don't get what it is you want and a lot of your posts the past few months have left me scratching my head quite often. 

[CyborgKin]

On 27/01/2017 at 0:24 AM, hollyandivy said:

Another one with a sex scandal????? How many funds are there that are convicted sex offenders????? Somehow their whole modesty thing is not working, it creates monsters!

The celibate Roman Catholic clergy thing doesn't work so well either.

[Granwych]

14 hours ago, gustava said:

Why would fundies engage in a pagan ritual like handfasting?

 

Oh, they wouldn't engage in one.  They might attend one, if only for the opportunity to witness for Jeebus.   We had a few invited guests(not fundies, though, just Catholics) to wychling's handfasting moan and piss about not wanting to even observe the ceremony.  They all attended, didn't have to listen to a sermon, got a good dinner, danced the night away, and proclaimed it one of the best weddings they'd ever been to.

And 4 years later, wychling and her dh are still married.

[Fundiewonder]

Getting back to Bradrick, I admit that I'm not up to speed on his role in the whole Vision Forum fiasco. I know he called out Doug, but I didn't know that other fundies ostracized him for that. Do you know if that created a  rift with his in-laws? Maybe Scottie is all for the divorce and is trying to get Kelly and the kids to move back under his control.     

[MamaJunebug]

2 hours ago, Fundiewonder said:

Getting back to Bradrick, I admit that I'm not up to speed on his role in the whole Vision Forum fiasco. I know he called out Doug, but I didn't know that other fundies ostracized him for that. Do you know if that created a  rift with his in-laws? Maybe Scottie is all for the divorce and is trying to get Kelly and the kids to move back under his control.     

I'm a believer!

[Othello]

Completely extraneous comment, but with no prior knowledge of handfasting, when I read the term the first thing that came to mind was a fast or abstaining from, y'know, using your hand in creative ways...

[ophelia]

Kelly is in NC again. At least that is what I suspect. She put an IG story with her youngest in an indoor swing and the caption "Nana's house is fun." Looks like the barn to me and I somehow cannot see her being at her in-laws right now.

[Peas n carrots]

As much as we want to see Kelly break free, the most likely scenario is she moved back in with her parents, even on a temporary basis.

It makes me think Peter is going through some kind of crisis of faith. I have nothing substantial other than the dramatic ending of his relationship with Doug and move to WA, so it's really more of a hunch.

[MamaJunebug]

On 1/29/2017 at 8:06 AM, gustava said:

Why would fundies engage in a pagan ritual like handfasting?

 

I just think I remembered: in the Greek Orthodox Church wedding ceremony, the new couple's hands are wrapped together during one of the blessings. Saw this in either a documentary about Greek Orthodoxy, or wedding customs, or a Nia Vardalos movie. 

But some do use the same idea. Which I find charming! 

4 hours ago, ophelia said:

Kelly is in NC again. At least that is what I suspect. She put an IG story with her youngest in an indoor swing and the caption "Nana's house is fun." Looks like the barn to me and I somehow cannot see her being at her in-laws right now.

Oh yeah, there's a swing in The Brown Barn. 

Would a court let a parent move across the continent with the children of tender years? 

[Howl]

Ick. The thought of children transferred from the headship of Bradrick! to Scottie is awful.  

[WonderingInWA]

2 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

 

Would a court let a parent move across the continent with the children of tender years? 

It would require the other parent's consent, but yes. At least here in Washington state where the divorce has been filed.  They likely won't end up in court anyway if they can settle through mediation or collaboration.

10 minutes ago, Howl said:

Ick. The thought of children transferred from the headship of Bradrick! to Scottie is awful.  

Sadly though, where else can she go?  She has SIX kids and no edjukayshun so wouldn't find any kind of job even if she had time to work.  My guess is she will go to "work" for the NCFIC, like her brother David did.  Scottie will just put her on the "payroll".

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Here's some SAHD headship questions for any former fundie FJ-ers

The SAHD movement believes that the daughter is under the authority of her father until he formally transfers it to her husband at the wedding.

If a former SAHD gets divorced  (rare I know) does she automatically go back under the authority of her father? Does she have to live in his house because she's again single and has to resume her role as SAHD?

Does the ex- hubby retain authority over the woman even though they aren't married/living together? Do the ex-hubby's daughters remain under his authority even though they aren't living together?

If the authority reverts to the Dad, does the ex have to formally transfers it back to him?

If the Dad regains authority does he also then have authority over his grand daughters? 

And lets assume the woman becomes a widow -- does she go back under Dad's authority?  If Dad is dead does a brother assume headship?  If there are no brothers then some other male relative?

I mean heaven forbid a woman is in charge of her own self without some man to tell her what to do and make all her decisions for her

I'm 99.99999% sure that these SAHD proponents (looking at you Scottie, DPIAT, and Geoff Botkin) never thought this through. 

[Howl]

@Red Hair, Black Dress, Saudi Arabia's male guardian system likely has the answers you seek. 

[Maxwell]

3 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Here's some SAHD headship questions for any former fundie FJ-ers

The SAHD movement believes that the daughter is under the authority of her father until he formally transfers it to her husband at the wedding.

If a former SAHD gets divorced  (rare I know) does she automatically go back under the authority of her father? Does she have to live in his house because she's again single and has to resume her role as SAHD?

Does the ex- hubby retain authority over the woman even though they aren't married/living together? Do the ex-hubby's daughters remain under his authority even though they aren't living together?

If the authority reverts to the Dad, does the ex have to formally transfers it back to him?

If the Dad regains authority does he also then have authority over his grand daughters? 

And lets assume the woman becomes a widow -- does she go back under Dad's authority?  If Dad is dead does a brother assume headship?  If there are no brothers then some other male relative?

I mean heaven forbid a woman is in charge of her own self without some man to tell her what to do and make all her decisions for her

I'm 99.99999% sure that these SAHD proponents (looking at you Scottie, DPIAT, and Geoff Botkin) never thought this through. 

"Confused?  You won't be, after this weeks episode of SOAP."

(Sorry, I've been on a SOAP watching binge since posting a video clip in another thread.  This just sounded so much like the opening dialog -- I even read it in the voice of the announcer.  :-) )

[ladyamylynn]

4 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Here's some SAHD headship questions for any former fundie FJ-ers

The SAHD movement believes that the daughter is under the authority of her father until he formally transfers it to her husband at the wedding.

If a former SAHD gets divorced  (rare I know) does she automatically go back under the authority of her father? Does she have to live in his house because she's again single and has to resume her role as SAHD?

Does the ex- hubby retain authority over the woman even though they aren't married/living together? Do the ex-hubby's daughters remain under his authority even though they aren't living together?

If the authority reverts to the Dad, does the ex have to formally transfers it back to him?

If the Dad regains authority does he also then have authority over his grand daughters? 

And lets assume the woman becomes a widow -- does she go back under Dad's authority?  If Dad is dead does a brother assume headship?  If there are no brothers then some other male relative?

I mean heaven forbid a woman is in charge of her own self without some man to tell her what to do and make all her decisions for her

I'm 99.99999% sure that these SAHD proponents (looking at you Scottie, DPIAT, and Geoff Botkin) never thought this through. 

I have a feeling that there's not a formalized doctrine about this.  Planning for such a scenario would be seen as admitting it might happen which would probably be interpreted as a lack of faith or whatever.

[quiversR4hunting]

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Othello said:

Completely extraneous comment, but with no prior knowledge of handfasting, when I read the term the first thing that came to mind was a fast or abstaining from, y'know, using your hand in creative ways...

I thought the same thing and then when people were saying they did during a ceremony in front of guests, all I pictured was Josh and Anna hand sex!

[AnywhereButHere]

5 hours ago, Maxwell said:

"Confused?  You won't be, after this weeks episode of SOAP."

(Sorry, I've been on a SOAP watching binge since posting a video clip in another thread.  This just sounded so much like the opening dialog -- I even read it in the voice of the announcer.  :-) )

Tangent... I loved Soap! One of my favorite shows as a kid!