The Invisible Jinger (and Her Preacher Man Jeremy)

[SweetFellowshipper]

I guess I just don't get why we go round and round hoping every Duggar couple will abstain, try NFP, maybe even use condoms (which they also think are tantamount to abortion), etc etc. She's marrying a fundie preacher who agreed to be on the show. He agreed to be part of a religion whose main, absolute tenet is no birth control and absolutely no limiting family size. If he had any desire whatsoever to not have a gazillion kids immediately upon marrying, he'd have picked somebody else. That IS their faith. And what evidence do we have that they'd want to, at all, or even feel free to express that incredibly sinful/equivalent to baby killing desire at this point? His family size? Derick's family was tiny and he chose a Duggar to have a different family life. 

[srosieb827]

18 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I guess I just don't get why we go round and round hoping every Duggar couple will abstain, try NFP, maybe even use condoms (which they also think are tantamount to abortion), etc etc. She's marrying a fundie preacher who agreed to be on the show. He agreed to be part of a religion whose main, absolute tenet is no birth control and absolutely no limiting family size. If he had any desire whatsoever to not have a gazillion kids immediately upon marrying, he'd have picked somebody else. That IS their faith.

Perhaps that's true - but I didn't speculate about Ben or Derick. They never appeared to disagree with Jim-Bob publicly.  Jeremy has. On multiple occasions.  I do genuinely believe Jeremy is much more of an adult and much more a pragmatist.  I think he loves Jinger, and I think there's a lot we don't see or know.  I don't think it's completely unreasonable to assume they had some time to discuss their compatibility without a third party involved. If she doesn't have an instagram or fb yet, it's reasonable to assume she is less interested in the spotlight than her sisters.  Yes, from a practical standpoint, the show provides a nice salary for them. Why would they walk away from that right now? But their participation doesn't necessarily mean they plan to live the same life as her sisters or parents. 

While it could be argued that Ben and Derick married into the religion in the end, ultimately, it is the men who call the shots in this world. Jeremy (or Ben or Derick) would be under no obligation to follow the church of Jim-Bob. Ben does seem to have subtle departures, and I think Jeremy has large differences of opinion with his father in law.  The tension between them is palpable. Yes, some of his views are still abhorrent, but I do think they differ.  

[BackseatMom]

I agree with @sweetfellowshiper, and I'd like to add: its just too early to know anything. I think Jeremy probably knows what he bought into (and what he bough). Some of you are hopeful he might be a more lenient master. Its just too early to know one way or another.

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I guess I just don't get why we go round and round hoping every Duggar couple will abstain, try NFP, maybe even use condoms (which they also think are tantamount to abortion), etc etc. She's marrying a fundie preacher who agreed to be on the show. He agreed to be part of a religion whose main, absolute tenet is no birth control and absolutely no limiting family size. If he had any desire whatsoever to not have a gazillion kids immediately upon marrying, he'd have picked somebody else. That IS their faith. And what evidence do we have that they'd want to, at all, or even feel free to express that incredibly sinful/equivalent to baby killing desire at this point? His family size? Derick's family was tiny and he chose a Duggar to have a different family life. 

I guess I hope that as time goes on and real life happens, that many of the second generation fundies do limit their family size. I have a friend who is catholic and decided not to use any birth control after marriage. Then life happened. Pregnancies very close together, a child with special needs, job loss, and more. Needless to say they decided to use BC and have no more. 

I think it's easy to say "we are leaving it up to god" when you have 0, 1, 2, or 3 kids only. Shit gets real when you have 5 small children (2 or 3 in diapers) while dealing with morning sickness from your newest blessing, and trying to live off of one income. 

[SweetFellowshipper]

Maybe they differ, but it might be on things like pants and a bit of alcohol. The birth control thing? For Jinger, that would mean turning her back on her lifelong devout belief that birth control is no better than murder. I don't think any amount of love between them or pragmatism will make either of them not believe that. Like I said, if he wanted someone who didn't believe birth control was truly the essence of evil, or didn't believe that wholeheartedly himself, I don't believe he'd have married Jinger. Yes, anything is possible, but being a realistic, more reasonable person than the Duggars is not evidence that he and Jinger will turn their backs on the most sacred, non negotiable part of their religion. 

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

I guess I hope that as time goes on and real life happens, that many of the second generation fundies do limit their family size. I have a friend who is catholic and decided not to use any birth control after marriage. Then life happened. Pregnancies very close together, a child with special needs, job loss, and more. Needless to say they decided to use BC and have no more. 

I think it's easy to say "we are leaving it up to god" when you have 0, 1, 2, or 3 kids only. Shit gets real when you have 5 small children (2 or 3 in diapers) while dealing with morning sickness from your newest blessing, and trying to live off of one income. 

Yes, but Catholics don't believe that birth control is nearly as evil...In Catholic school, we were always taught that natural family planning was A-OK. That charting ovulation was perfectly fine. The Duggars are taught from birth that anything akin to that, even saying no to sex when you feel sick, is on the spectrum of abortion and is preventing God's will directly, and makes you a selfish abortion loving feminist. They literally believe that condoms and the pill cause existing babies to die.

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 hours ago, Scribber said:

Me too! In June? The husband and I will have been together 21 years, married 14.

I was 14 when we started "going out" (he is 4 years older than me... and may have been lead to believe I was much closer to his age...) but? We grew up together. We never intended to get married - but life happened. And it's been one hell of a journey!

But I cannot imagine if that had been our sole purpose in even talking to one another.

Are you my sister? ;-)

She started dating her husband at 14, married when she was 20.5, and now married 16 years. 

They are lucky they were able to grow up together instead of apart.

4 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Maybe they differ, but it might be on things like pants and a bit of alcohol. The birth control thing? For Jinger, that would mean turning her back on her lifelong devout belief that birth control is no better than murder. I don't think any amount of love between them or pragmatism will make either of them not believe that. Like I said, if he wanted someone who didn't believe birth control was truly the essence of evil, or didn't believe that wholeheartedly himself, I don't believe he'd have married Jinger. Yes, anything is possible, but being a realistic, more reasonable person than the Duggars is not evidence that he and Jinger will turn their backs on the most sacred, non negotiable part of their religion. 

Yes, but Catholics don't believe that birth control is nearly as evil...In Catholic school, we were always taught that natural family planning was A-OK. That charting ovulation was perfectly fine. The Duggars are taught from birth that anything akin to that, even saying no to sex when you feel sick, is on the spectrum of abortion and is preventing God's will directly, and makes you a selfish abortion loving feminist. They literally believe that condoms and the pill cause existing babies to die.

I understand that and do keep that in mind. However I think that it's possible that when these headships are faced with losing their wife over yet another pregnancy, they may feel differently about natural family planning. 

[ClaraOswin]

Can someone point me in the direction of where the Duggars have said using condoms or abstaining from sex = abortion? I know they talked about  using the pill and how that caused the miscarriage of Caleb or something but that's all I can remember seeing.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

Can someone point me in the direction of where the Duggars have said using condoms or abstaining from sex = abortion? I know they talked about  using the pill and how that caused the miscarriage of Caleb or something but that's all I can remember seeing.

I've actually never heard them say that about abstaining. All I've ever heard about that topic is that the wife should always submit in the bedroom. However I think it's quite possible some fundie husbands may not be "in the mood" during the most fertile times of the month. Quite convenient really. As the headship is the one that seems to be expected to initiate sex in these people's minds. 

[grandmadugger]

It's truly to soon to know what any of the couples will do as far as kids go. It's unreasonable to think that none will limit family size. We've talked about how it is unrealistic to think that all 19 kids will follow in their mom and dad's religion.  We just don't know who that will be or when they will start limiting. 

[snickers34]

2 hours ago, srosieb827 said:

Chuck isn't influencing his siblings at all.  He very much hates the lime light, but he has spent time with his brother and his wife during the holidays.  I know this, because on my best friends works with him, and I've met him several times. The fact that they're still fairly close in spite of their difference I think suggests an open-mindedness at the minimum to accept his different world view. That is encouraging. 

All well and good. Several of Anna's siblings have denounced the cult and there's plenty of other connections to the real world if you look for them. My bigger point is that Jeremy was on the outside and CHOSE to come back to the hateful garbagey belief system that the Duggars follow. It's almost like someone having a gay friend who they love very much, yet still not wavering in their homophobia. I'll believe that Jinger & Jeremy are somehow different or going to become more worldly and liberal when I see it. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I guess I just don't get why we go round and round hoping every Duggar couple will abstain, try NFP, maybe even use condoms (which they also think are tantamount to abortion), etc etc. She's marrying a fundie preacher who agreed to be on the show. He agreed to be part of a religion whose main, absolute tenet is no birth control and absolutely no limiting family size. If he had any desire whatsoever to not have a gazillion kids immediately upon marrying, he'd have picked somebody else. That IS their faith. And what evidence do we have that they'd want to, at all, or even feel free to express that incredibly sinful/equivalent to baby killing desire at this point? His family size? Derick's family was tiny and he chose a Duggar to have a different family life. 

But not every fundy thinks BC is murder, most of them yes, but not all of them. I know several fundy families that have 4 kids or less, most of them only 2 kids, and those kids have 2 or 3 years between them.  Just because the girls were raised to be breeders doesn't mean they wants to be. Though i do think Jessa will have the most kids of the 5 oldest girls. 

[BeaSnarky]

18 hours ago, MayMay1123 said:

 

awww look at jinge having fun in church! that's a pretty secular song for her, too...

This looks like the organ room at Longwood Gardens.  Didn't someone post they were there recently?  My handbell choir used to play concerts in that room.

[SweetFellowshipper]

1 hour ago, ClaraOswin said:

Can someone point me in the direction of where the Duggars have said using condoms or abstaining from sex = abortion? I know they talked about  using the pill and how that caused the miscarriage of Caleb or something but that's all I can remember seeing.

IBLP teachings are that natural family planning is extremely wrong and abstinence in marriage is a sin. Here's a brief discussion of the differences between Catholic approaches to NFP and Quiverfull ones.

https://www.catholicmatch.com/institute/2011/11/20-kids-counting-for-the-duggars-quiverfull-vs-nfp/

14 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

But not every fundy thinks BC is murder, most of them yes, but not all of them. I know several fundy families that have 4 kids or less, most of them only 2 kids, and those kids have 2 or 3 years between them.  Just because the girls were raised to be breeders doesn't mean they wants to be. Though i do think Jessa will have the most kids of the 5 oldest girls. 

Yes, they don't. But Jinger? Absolutely. If not, I've never seen a shred of evidence to the contrary. Certainly some of the kids will have different beliefs, but I think it would require evidence to think they might believe differently. So far the only evidence we have about Jinger is that she is highly devout, uses Quiverfull coded language about her future pregnancies, and is with a deeply fundie man who chose a devout Quiverfull girl as a wife. 

[socalrules]

Jeremy hasn't done anything to show he will be any different than the Duggars. All I hear is he went to college, lived out in the world and gave a glare to Jim Bob. It's the same thing we were all saying about Derrick. Remember the whole belief that Derrick was spiriting Jill away from the Duggars because of Joshgate and how he was protecting his family? Well that didn't turn out the way anyone thought.

Jeremy gets the benefit of the doubt because he is better looking and lives in  different state. He may be college educated but he was raised fundy. He has been out in The world and chose to immerse himself with the Duggars. You don't go after a Duggar girl unless you are only looking for a subservient wife. You aren't looking for an educated, independent woman who will have no problem using birth control or sending her kids to school when you marry a Duggar. You are looking for a girl steeped in the Duggar belief system. 

Jeremy chose the Duggar lifestyle. He was allowed to married a Duggar daughter because he is of the same mindset as the Duggar. He didn't get over on Jim Bob, he is exactly what Jim Bob wants for his daughter. There is nothing about Jeremy that leads me to believe he isn't cut from the same Duggar cloth. He went to college, big deal. Jim Bob and Michelle went  high school, yet didn't send their kids. People get all up in arms about how the Bates are more dangerous because they present a prettier picture of fundamentalism. How is Jeremy any different? He is better looking, and well-spoken, so he is given the benefit of the doubt. 

[buggers]

3 minutes ago, socalrules said:

Jeremy chose the Duggar lifestyle. He was allowed to married a Duggar daughter because he is of the same mindset as the Duggar. He didn't get over on Jim Bob, he is exactly what Jim Bob wants for his daughter. There is nothing about Jeremy that leads me to believe he isn't cut from the same Duggar cloth. He went to college, big deal. Jim Bob and Michelle went  high school, yet didn't send their kids. People get all up in arms about how the Bates are more dangerous because they present a prettier picture of fundamentalism. How is Jeremy any different? He is better looking, and well-spoken, so he is given the benefit of the doubt. 

I agree that Jeremy knew what he was marrying into. However, I do think that influence in the real world, with real culture and non fundie people, is a positive thing - if only in a small way. That's why I always liked Derrick and Jeremy a smidge more for the girls than Bin and probably Joy's dude (whose name I haven't learned yet).  We'll see if that amounts to anything, but the small rebellions with Derrick's hair and Jinge wearing a sleeveless shirt and signing a secular song (oh my!) give me tiny amounts of hope.

[SweetFellowshipper]

I think Derick is turning out to be a much more conservative fundie husband than Ben. Jeremy comes across the same way to me. 

[trustworthy]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 11:49 PM, grandmadugger said:

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 6:42 PM, Kira said:

1 hour ago, BeaSnarky said:

This looks like the organ room at Longwood Gardens.  Didn't someone post they were there recently?  My handbell choir used to play concerts in that room.

On J's Facebook page someone posted that this is exactly where this is.  So it may be the same night they took the photo in front of the tree.

 

 

[anotherone]

11 hours ago, Adrienne83 said:

 

I actually married the one guy I really dated. Prior to him I had only went on a couple of dates with one other guy. I met my now husband when I was 24. Minus first date, he was/is my first everything. No real reason I didn't date.

 

 

Yeah, probably a real good reason you didn't date more.  You didn't like any of the other guys you met.  Probably as simple as that. 

I think those of you who got married to one of the first people you dated, if you really want to compare to the Duggars you still have to include all the other guys you didn't date when you think of it, all the weird nerdy guys you met in middle school, the "cool" guys in high school that may have snubbed you, the guys at the pool, older guys you had a crush on, guys in your study group, etc.  It's like you may have considered 107 people - 100 you ruled out immediately, 5 you would have liked but ended with 0 dates, 1 guy with 3 dates, and 1 ending with marriage.  Without the 106 previous loser guys you wouldn't have made such an informed choice about your husband.  The Duggar girls don't really get a chance to evaluate the losers until it's too late.

 

[ClaraOswin]

1 hour ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

IBLP teachings are that natural family planning is extremely wrong and abstinence in marriage is a sin. Here's a brief discussion of the differences between Catholic approaches to NFP and Quiverfull ones.

https://www.catholicmatch.com/institute/2011/11/20-kids-counting-for-the-duggars-quiverfull-vs-nfp/

Yes, they don't. But Jinger? Absolutely. If not, I've never seen a shred of evidence to the contrary. Certainly some of the kids will have different beliefs, but I think it would require evidence to think they might believe differently. So far the only evidence we have about Jinger is that she is highly devout, uses Quiverfull coded language about her future pregnancies, and is with a deeply fundie man who chose a devout Quiverfull girl as a wife. 

I get that they think using birth control or NFP is going against God's plan or however they want to word it. But I am still not seeing where they have said it is akin to abortion or "murder" or whatever.

[socalrules]

I agree with the posts above. You may have married your first boyfriend but you excluded a lot of guys to get there. You made choices without even dating people. 

I get the idea that with courtships, first courtships,  getting to know you, whatever you may call it, is the last one. If Daddy says this is the person you should court, then they will be your husband. There is no rejecting people you got to know or figuring out you aren't compatible. You automatically love this person and know they are your soul mate because Daddy thinks they are courtship material. It's why I think Derrick, Ben and Jeremy are interchangeable. Had Daddy Jim Bob said Ben or Jeremy as the one for Jill, she would have been in love with them an known God had sent him to her. Same with the others. It's why they always said Jim bob knew what they were looking for in a husband. I don't think it would ever occur to them that someone Jim Bob liked for them may not be the right person from them. 

[buggers]

2 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

I get that they think using birth control or NFP is going against God's plan or however they want to word it. But I am still not seeing where they have said it is akin to abortion or "murder" or whatever.

I really can't remember when, but didn't Michelle say at one point that her taking birth control led to a miscarriage later on and that's why they don't agree with birth control (besides the god's plan thing)? I think that comment maybe snowballed into people saying the duggars said that birth control is akin to murder.

[SamiKatz]

My sister and her husband met in grade nine, dated through high school, married at 18 (because my sister desperately wanted out of our family home), and have been married (very happily) for 40 years.

I think what helped them is that they didn't have kids for 10 years after marriage, and did a lot in those 10 years (moved from Ontario to Western Canada, lived in several provinces, had many different jobs and had a lot of adventures).

As far as Jeremy is concerned, only time will tell what will happen with him and Jinger regarding children, etc., but I was under the impression that he did not grow up in an ILBP fundie household, and his parents did only have three kids.  We can only hope for Jinger's sake, she is able to grow beyond the boundaries of what she was taught growing up.

 

[ClaraOswin]

7 minutes ago, buggers said:

I really can't remember when, but didn't Michelle say at one point that her taking birth control led to a miscarriage later on and that's why they don't agree with birth control (besides the god's plan thing)? I think that comment maybe snowballed into people saying the duggars said that birth control is akin to murder.

I believe she meant that the miscarriage was more like a punishment or something (not sure if that's the right word to use) for previously going against God's plan by using birth control. Not that the pill actually physically caused the miscarriage. But I could be wrong.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

I believe she meant that the miscarriage was more like a punishment or something (not sure if that's the right word to use) for previously going against God's plan by using birth control. Not that the pill actually physically caused the miscarriage. But I could be wrong.

If I remember correctly, some dr said that BC pills can cause miscarriage and the Duggars ran with it. Michelle got pregnant while on the pill and had a miscarriage. She's blamed the pill for the loss of Caleb ever since. That's when they stopped using any form of contraception. 

[Kittikatz]

All this Jeremy talk does feel a lot like the optimistic Derrick talk in the early days of his/Jill's courting/marriage, and time has demonstrated that Derrick was nothing more than a Great White Hype.

I hope that Jeremy is more liberal than JBoob. I hope that Jinger gets to experience more of the world than her sisters. I hope that Jinger is able to pursue her interests (whatever they may be), wear what she likes and do as she pleases in life. I hope Jinger isn't just used as a brood mare until she cracks in the laundry room one night. I hope they are happy together.

But...

Jeremy choose to pursue an unworldly QF woman when he could have had someone who doesn't have the emotional maturity of a twelve year old and zero real world experience. It's good that Jeremy has some more liberal family members, but so do Derrick, Anna and Kathy Bates, and they are still immersed kool-aid. I'm optimistic about Jinger maybe wearing sleeveless dresses, it's a nice baby step sign. It's great that Jinger is being taken to cultural events, but I seem to recall Jill and Jessa both going to Broadway plays, and it doesn't seem to have done them any good. It's nice to see that Jeremy was getting up JBoob's nose a bit, and that he and Jinger had different courtship practices, but Jeremy has, to my knowledge at least, never said or done anything substantive that would lead us to think that he doesn't toe the QF party line. Hell, this whole thing seems so deliberate, I'm half wondering if Jeremy's using Jinger as a springboard to some sort of fame, hoping to be a reality star, or big time TV preacher, or maybe planning to fill the 'void' left by Gothard, cause let's face it, Pecanthief and Brandon K aren't exactly charismatic preachers. 

It's just too early to tell what's going on here. With the lack of social media, Jeremy and Jinger are going to be especially hard to get any sort of read on. Which is an interesting strategy that makes me wonder what Jeremy is up to, but by keeping Jinger (officially) away from social media, he may be keeping his options open to go any number of different ways in the future. 

It will be interesting to see where they are in five or ten years, but right now we have little indication that they are anything different from any of the other Duggar couples.