The Boyer Sisters, Part 2

[nickelodeon]

Eh, the "sent the wife shopping" thing wasn't that egregious IMO, except for the fact that homegirl evidently was at the store for two days while Gabe got in internet slapfights. lol.

[hoipolloi]

Fundie Monday! 

So @Gabe, do you only get on FJ when your wife is not around? 

[snarkysally]

14 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Is it really all that shocking that someone a part of the fundie community (that LOVES them some patriarchy) is assumed that when he says his wife asked him if she could go shopping, then we assumed it's because he's the husband and not because they have one car. 

I feel like you're being purposely obtuse in your posts.

PS: I know that long ass first sentence is atrocious. 

And I feel like some are purposely misunderstanding. There are plenty of actual things to snark on without making poorly based assumptions and taking things out of context.

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, snarkysally said:

And to the pp who mentioned one size fits all as an argument against homeschooling, it really doesn't get more "one size fits all" than public school where every child is taught the exact same curriculum in the exact same way.

Except they aren't where my kids went and where my grandson will go next year.  Generalizing doesn't make truth.

As for Gabe pseudo-intellectualism leaves me cold.

[DaisyD]

Oh ffs. Of course he's not responsible for solving the world's problems. It's called discourse. He wants the government to stay out of homeschooling. He was asked what should be done if the government does as he wants. It's a conversation. That's how it works, especially where politics are concerned. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

And I feel like some are purposely misunderstanding. There are plenty of actual things to snark on without making poorly based assumptions and taking things out of context.

People made assumptions based on what they know about fundie beliefs. Sorry Gabe wasn't created in a vacuum. We have prior info of fundie beliefs that will color our perception of what he writes. Sorry that's called being human. He corrected the info. It's not that serious.

[snarkysally]

11 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Except they aren't where my kids went and where my grandson will go next year.  Generalizing doesn't make truth.

As for Gabe pseudo-intellectualism leaves me cold.

What exactly is the difference between your over generalizing about homeschool (which most on this site do), and my over generalizing about public school? I've always wondered about that.

If in fact your children/grandchildren go to a public school that is somehow well staffed enough for teachers to offer an individualized education to each and every child in their 20-30 child classroom, that's awesome. However, it is also the exception not the rule.

Public school can be good. It can also be very bad.

Homeschool can be good. It can also be very bad.

If you can't admit the truth of that, then you are the one guilty of over generalizing.

[charmedforsure]

2 hours ago, snarkysally said:

One could draw negative meanings from just about anything if one is determined to do so, and most here clearly are.

It's just a thing people say. Last spring, I sent my husband and son off on a boy scout camping trip, with lots of homemade snacks to boot. I assure you they were quite willing.

At some point the nitpicking just gets ridiculous.

And to the pp who mentioned one size fits all as an argument against homeschooling, it really doesn't get more "one size fits all" than public school where every child is taught the exact same curriculum in the exact same way.

Oh hell no. Public school curriculum is hardly one size fits all. Sure it's not one-on-one instruction day in, day out, but you're making the same asinine remark just like someone saying ALL homeschooling is terrible because many homeschooled students are subjected to  obvious religious overtones in their curriculum. 

IEPs, 504s, the umbrella of special education (and its mainstream buddy, inclusion), intervention instruction... All provided to hopefully level the playing field to give students the leg up they need if there are impairments in learning. Plus there are so many alternative school choices with the boom of public charter schools (which are both a blessing and a curse...).

I was lucky enough to be a part of an amazing Gifted & Talented program throughout elementary school and junior high that the school district I grew up in provided for students (who identified with G&T markers). I received pull-out instruction one day a week in elementary school (based on creative problem solving through STEAM subject matter), and advanced math, language arts, and social studies classes in junior high. On the flipside, I was also a kid with a 504 Plan thanks to having both ADHD and dysgraphia, and received accommodations after getting my diagnoses through the proper channels. 

Even if you tailor to each individual student, it doesn't guarantee success. There are so many variables at play in both homeschooling and mainstream education, that results will vary for any method of instruction. 

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

Regarding the hard questions... (or at least one of the ones you asked) I don't have a plan for preventing abuse of homeschooling simply because that is not something which I am focusing on in life. I have tailoring and fashion history and a day job to keep track of. I can develop an answer from Libertarian political theory and my Biblical beliefs regarding how I think it should be handled, but I would really rather not set myself up as an expert on something until I do my research on it.

What @Gabe is saying isn't out of left field. Researching into homeschool methodologies to prevent abuse just isn't on his radar. There isn't anything to defend/oppose on that topic for him, because he's not currently participating in the activity. The newly married Eversons have no children right now, and who knows when they will have kids? And if the domain of schooling their future children is left up to his wife (like most child-rearing activities are in patriarchal households), perhaps it's Brigid we should be questioning about her possible methodologies to prevent abuse... 

"I don't know at this time" is an acceptable answer, ONLY if it is actually given and not flippantly avoided.

 

 

[snarkysally]

4 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

People made assumptions based on what they know about fundie beliefs. Sorry Gabe wasn't created in a vacuum. We have prior info of fundie beliefs that will color our perception of what he writes. Sorry that's called being human. He corrected the info. It's not that serious.

I think it's interesting that if someone makes assumptions about the people on this site everyone gets up in arms, but when you do it to others it's excusable because _____ [fill in the blanks with that days reason]. Can you truly not see the double standard?

[formergothardite]

50 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

He did not say or imply either way. Things are left out for brevity and people chose to pick it apart and fill in the blanks as they desired.

Which is why people should be careful in how they say things on the internet. We can only go by what a person writes. He told us the style his parents used worked for him but not his siblings.

50 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

Do you feel that it's your responsibility to prevent abuse in not homeschooling families?

Absolutely! 

50 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

Tell me, what have you done to prevent child abuse in traditional families?

I have personally reported child abuse to CPS. For several years I taught a class at a church that educated people on how to spot child abuse and the facts about child abuse. I also serve on a committee that pushes better protection for special needs children in my local public school system. I have helped with a campaign to get NC to recognize and provide help to children with dyslexia since they are often overlooked and their education neglected. There are other things too, but I don't want to give out too much personal info. 

50 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

I was abused as a child. I went to public school. No one ever did a thing to help my sisters and me.

And that is a tragedy which is why I push for better training so that teachers can spot abuse(it isn't always obvious) and CPS doing more to intervene when abuse happens. The current local CPS system needs a lot of work so that children don't slip through the cracks. 

50 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

Child abuse is NOT solely a homeschooling or fundie problem.

At no point did I say it was. 

50 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

And it's not anyone's specific personal duty to try and solve all the ills of society.

But we can do our best. Ignoring laws that allow parents to abuse, neglect and murder children without anyone noticing doesn't make the world a better place. With Gabe he specifically said he was against any regulations that would protect homeschooling children, but yet had no suggestions on how these children can be protected. 

As a homeschooling parent, what are your thoughts on how to best prevent abuse and neglect in homeschooling? 

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

I think it's interesting that if someone makes assumptions about the people on this site everyone gets up in arms, but when you do it to others it's excusable because _____ [fill in the blanks with that days reason]. Can you truly not see the double standard?

Sigh...

its not a double standard when fundies put their beliefs out there for the world at large to see. What does anyone on here know about me? Next to nothing because I don't have a blog letting everyone know. So making assumptions based on what he and his wife have put out there is not shocking. 

[snarkysally]

3 minutes ago, charmedforsure said:

Oh hell no. Public school curriculum is hardly one size fits all. Sure it's not one-on-one instruction day in, day out, but you're making the same asinine remark just like someone saying ALL homeschooling is terrible because many homeschooled students are subjected to  obvious religious overtones in their curriculum. 

IEPs, 504s, the umbrella of special education (and its mainstream buddy, inclusion), intervention instruction... All provided to hopefully level the playing field to give students the leg up they need if there are impairments in learning. Plus there are so many alternative school choices with the boom of public charter schools (which are both a blessing and a curse...).

I was lucky enough to be a part of an amazing Gifted & Talented program throughout elementary school and junior high that the school district I grew up in provided for students (who identified with G&T markers). I received pull-out instruction one day a week in elementary school (based on creative problem solving through STEAM subject matter), and advanced math, language arts, and social studies classes in junior high. On the flipside, I was also a kid with a 504 Plan thanks to having both ADHD and dysgraphia, and received accommodations after getting my diagnoses through the proper channels. 

 

 

I'm glad you were able to get the help and attention you needed. Unfortunately that isn't always the case. And often the best of intentions are written out on paper but not followed.  I've worked in schools and seen first hand the number of children who are bored and lose all interest in school because they are advanced, and need to wait for the rest of the class to catch up. I've seen kids left behind who fall through the cracks because the class moves on. As I said above there are good and bad of each but public school is not a perfect system any more than homeschooling is.

[Grimalkin]

   I believe Gabe got a pretty good education and his siblings were offerd good educations and his parents did theit best to customize the curriculum to each child. 

     I personally have no issue with homeschooling. I have always been intrigued by it. I have looked into all sorts of styles and curriculums. I think it's a wonderful option, and can see so many cool upsides. It's not that strange where I live either. There two families on my block who homeschool. Last year an 11 year old boy in my community who was homeschooled was killed in a freak camping accident. The family was overwhelmed by the support and help they received by our town. As far as I am concearned I just want bare basics  required. Nothing massive. In my state you don't have to report to anybody if you homeschool. If you pull your kid out of school all you need to do is send a letter to the district and that's it. My expierience is mostly positive with homeschoolers, there are some oddballs. I want kids to know who to turn to if they need help. 

[snarkysally]

28 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

As a homeschooling parent, what are your thoughts on how to best prevent abuse and neglect in homeschooling? 

I have no idea how to prevent child abuse or neglect of any kind. The problem with more government reach is that our government is run by flawed and sometimes truly corrupt people, so more government involvement doesn't always mean better. It is truly a tragedy to hear of a child like Erica Parsons who slipped through the cracks. It's also a tragedy to hear of public schooled children murdered by their own parents, because the system did not work, despite multiple reports. It's a tragedy to hear of children being bullied to the point of suicide, or an autistic boy being set on fire by schoolyard bullies. It's in all aspects of life around us, not just homeschooling or fundies.

I don't have the answers to any of it. Good for you trying to make a difference. Some of us just feel too overwhelmed. Also, some people feel more strongly led to other areas. I've spent a lot of time volunteering and in education about domestic violence (partner abuse), working with food banks and homeless shelters and programs. There are so many tragic things going on everyday in our world no one could possibly fully devote themselves to all of them.

[Coconut Flan]

22 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

What exactly is the difference between your over generalizing about homeschool

Please point me to where I over generalized about home schooling?

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

BTW, I'm calling today Fundie Mondie ;-)

Why do Fundies always seem to visit when I'm busy?  

Well, my pet peeve snark certainly sent everyone down a false trail and not only @Gabe has misplaced his sense of humor.  Of course it's reasonable to discuss child care, errands, and use of the car with your nearest and dearest.  I still think "sending" someone is  a patronizing way to put it, but don't let that bother you all.

34 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

And I feel like some are purposely misunderstanding. There are plenty of actual things to snark on without making poorly based assumptions and taking things out of context.

Aren't you the little charmer?  To whom were you addressing this?

6 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

I have no idea how to prevent child abuse or neglect of any kind.

Then it is high time to educate yourself about child abuse prevention.

Back to Gabe:  So, @Gabe, not making any assumptions and just responding to a statement you made yourself:  You believe marriage should be complementarian.  Can you describe in your own words what this means and how you and Brigid intend to implement this thinking in your marriage.  How does this differ from Patriarchal marriage?  What happens if you disagree about issues?  How have you seen complementarian marriages work for other couples?

See, nice open-ended questions.  I won't even set a word limit.

[formergothardite]

29 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

The problem with more government reach is that our government is run by flawed and sometimes truly corrupt people, so more government involvement doesn't always mean better.

Well NC going with less government involvement has sure as hell not made homeschooling any safer. If you can use homeschooling to almost get away with murder, then we should all agree that the lack of regulations isn't working. If there had not been a step brother to turn 18 and report her missing, no one to this day would know they murdered her. 

It was harder to get away with educational neglect when NC had more regulations. People were less quick to say "I'm just going to homeschool" because it would have taken more work from the beginning.  I've watched the regulations fall in NC and watched as more and more parents who do not need to homeschool their kids start doing it because it is so easy and no one is going to check up on them. 

Are you against(and this if for @Gabe too) policies like these? 

https://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/policy-issues/policy-recommendations/

[DaisyD]

I homeschool one of my two children. I would have no issue with the state doing well checks on my homeschooled child periodically. Since we use k12 there's no issue with curriculum as it is a public school done from home. I don't see any reason that parents shouldn't be required to prove that they are at least making an effort to educate their children and aren't just letting them play video games in a meth lab all day. It really isn't that big of a deal.

[Palimpsest]

The problem is not, and never has been, with homeschooling.  Homeschooling is a legitimate way to educate children, but people who do it well unfailingly point out that it is hard work.  It is not as simple as sitting a child down in front of a curriculum and a computer screen and just assuming that they will learn.  Let alone learn well.

The problem is that a certain subset of parents use the lack of oversight of homeschooling to neglect their children's educational needs, and another even nastier subset takes advantage of the lack of oversight and regulation to hide medical neglect, child abuse, torture and murder.  And some of both these subsets are Fundamentalist Christians.

https://hsinvisiblechildren.org/interactive-map/

I also point my finger squarely at HSLDA and many Fundamentalist leaders for encouraging utter and unnecessary paranoia in many homeschooling families.  

People who are homeschooling well should not panic at the thought of increased government oversight.  At the very least they should cooperate with it even if they don't welcome it.  They should want to prevent child abuse as much as anyone.

[December]

10 minutes ago, DaisyD said:

I don't see any reason that parents shouldn't be required to prove that they are at least making an effort to educate their children and aren't just letting them play video games in a meth lab all day. It really isn't that big of a deal.

This. I had a friend growing up whose parents took them out of school to homeschool them and their siblings (really it was more like what people now are calling unschooling). Unfortunately, their idea of education consisted of giving the kids a few random workbooks and letting them do the exercises if they wanted. Otherwise they were just allowed to play and do whatever. As you might guess, this didn't work too well and the kids got super behind academically. Fortunately, because it was in an area with some sort of assessments on homeschooling, this problem was caught in a timely manner and the local school district convinced them to bring the kids back because their approach just wasn't benefiting the children.

I know there are plenty of families doing a great job homeschooling their kids, both from an educational and social interaction perspective. But I also think we need some way to check in on all children's educations, homeschooled or not, because children can't advocate for themselves and they all deserve the tools to function as adults in our society.

[MayMay1123]

1 hour ago, charmedforsure said:

I was lucky enough to be a part of an amazing Gifted & Talented program throughout elementary school and junior high that the school district I grew up in provided for students (who identified with G&T markers). I received pull-out instruction one day a week in elementary school (based on creative problem solving through STEAM subject matter), and advanced math, language arts, and social studies classes in junior high. On the flipside, I was also a kid with a 504 Plan thanks to having both ADHD and dysgraphia, and received accommodations after getting my diagnoses through the proper channels. 

 

 

 

would you mind if i messaged you? i'd love to find out some info on the adhd and disgraphia from someone who knows what they're talking about...

[ViolaSebastian]

5 hours ago, Gabe said:

Hello everyone. I have had a very busy few weeks, and so have you. The theories fly thick and fast and are as entertaining as always. I am afraid it shall have to be hello and goodbye for now. I don't think I will have much time over the holidays to be available for any interaction.

I had sent my darling wife away on a girls Christmas shopping trip last time I came for a visit, that is how I found the time to spend here. 

My "infamous" rules were aimed at time and expectation management. You can impute control motives into them all the live long day but it won't make it true. 

I salute those of you who were kind enough to assume the best. I shall continue to laugh at those who assume the worst.

And I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

Don't look for me until January and I will see if I can carve an afternoon out for some intellectual engagement and try not to descend too quickly into snark... 

I'm still waiting for a real apology--both for demanding that you, and you alone, would make the rules and for attempting to gaslight me. 

[snarkysally]

44 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Then it is high time to educate yourself about child abuse prevention.

According to the news, NO ONE knows how to prevent all forms of child abuse which is why horrendous, unspeakable things happen every single day (and most of it is actually not in fundie communities or among homschoolers). You don't know how to prevent all child abuse any more than I do.

47 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Well NC going with less government involvement has sure as hell not made homeschooling any safer. If you can use homeschooling to almost get away with murder, then we should all agree that the lack of regulations isn't working. If there had not been a step brother to turn 18 and report her missing, no one to this day would know they murdered her. 

It was harder to get away with educational neglect when NC had more regulations. People were less quick to say "I'm just going to homeschool" because it would have taken more work from the beginning.  I've watched the regulations fall in NC and watched as more and more parents who do not need to homeschool their kids start doing it because it is so easy and no one is going to check up on them. 

Are you against(and this if for @Gabe too) policies like these? 

https://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/policy-issues/policy-recommendations/

I'm not against common sense policies. Most of these things are things that my state already requires. I'm not a proponent of standardized testing so I would want more options and specifics about those types of requirements but overall, no I am not against that. 

[snarkysally]

 

14 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I'm still waiting for a real apology--both for demanding that you, and you alone, would make the rules and for attempting to gaslight me. 

Seriously? He was not controlling, just suggesting some common sense guidelines. People on this site say some truly atrocious things about the people you snark on and I've never seen an apology. Why would you expect one for a courteous, respectful suggestion? Even if you disagree with the need for it, he was not rude, disrespectful or unkind to owe anyone an apology. This is completely ridiculous.

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

I'm not against common sense policies.

That is what people are saying when we say there needs to be more regulations, because right now there are states with NO regulations. Responsible homeschooling is admitting that there should be something to hold parents accountable.

23 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I also point my finger squarely at HSLDA and many Fundamentalist leaders for encouraging utter and unnecessary paranoia in many homeschooling families.

HSLDA is from Satan. That is one evil organization who cares little about abused children. Their goal has always been to protect parents, not children. They have spread so many lies and fought laws that would protect children.