The Boyer Sisters, Part 2

[ViolaSebastian]

4 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

This is so interesting because the people here (most, not all!) Have proven themselves anything but open minded. It's hilarious to me because in so many instances you all are exactly like the fundie people you snark except a dogmatic "liberal" version of it...it's still just as closed minded, but you won't admit it (ha...another thing in common).

Wow, if there are ways to completely wipe out child abuse, then why is it still going on? It's absurd to say you know how to prevent all child abuse when it's obviously impossible. If you had to see a child returned to abusive parents who you KNEW had not changed at all and there was not a thing you could do about it, you might get a little jaded, too.

Where did I say "prevent all child abuse"? And FYI, I have returned a child to abusive parents, and I know exactly how you feel. But I disagree that not a thing can be done to lower rates or lessen the chances. I wouldn't be in my line of work if I thought that. 

[snarkysally]

Just now, ViolaSebastian said:

Where did I say "prevent all child abuse"?

That's what started this whole thing is that I said I have no idea how to prevent any/all forms of child abuse.

[ViolaSebastian]

Just now, snarkysally said:

That's what started this whole thing is that I said I have no idea how to prevent any/all forms of child abuse.

And I think that it's ridiculous that you'd assert that you have no idea how to prevent any forms of child abuse. There are programs and interventions that are proven to be successful. I never asserted that they had a 100 percent success rate, that would be ridiculous, but to say that you have no idea how to go about putting steps in place to prevent children from being abused, after being employed at CPS, is equally ridiculous. Now, if you said "but there's certainly not enough funding for those programs!," well, then we'd agree. 

[desertvixen]

@FlamingFundie, I think the commercial would be an excellent one!

[FormerlyFundyLite]

10 hours ago, charmedforsure said:

(based on creative problem solving through STEAM subject matter)

Sidebar (and I can't believe I missed @Gabe again--Hi!!!): Is STEAM a thing now? Science, technology, engineering, art, math? I saw it referenced in a HuffPo piece recently, which is the only reason I knew that a is for art. I seriously see the value of solid art education in terms of promoting creative thinking and just appreciating art for the sake of art, not to mention that there's some rather obscure ties between art and math (music theory, Fibonacci, golden spiral, etc). My art ed was, admittedly, meh at best--I was in band and learned (very poorly) about drawing in perspective and about pointilism. It just never occurred to me to put art in the same category as the others.

[Grimalkin]

45 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

This is so interesting because the people here (most, not all!) Have proven themselves anything but open minded. It's hilarious to me because in so many instances you all are exactly like the fundie people you snark except a dogmatic "liberal" version of it...it's still just as closed minded, but you won't admit it (ha...another thing in common).

Wow, if there are ways to completely wipe out child abuse, then why is it still going on? It's absurd to say you know how to prevent all child abuse when it's obviously impossible. If you had to see a child returned to abusive parents who you KNEW had not changed at all and there was not a thing you could do about it, you might get a little jaded, too.

   Why did you purposely use absolute words like completely, and all? Nobody said that and you know it. How is that an argument? I don't get your angle.

[snarkysally]

10 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

   Why did you purposely use absolute words like completely, and all? Nobody said that and you know it. How is that an argument? I don't get your angle.

Yes, some did say that, which is the whole point. Because when I pointed out the absurdity of it, I was basically called an idiot for admitting that I don't know how to end all child abuse and neither does anyone else. That was exactly my point, it's an absurd idea, yet you people are still arguing that I and others should somehow be able to do this. 

49 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

And I think that it's ridiculous that you'd assert that you have no idea how to prevent any forms of child abuse. There are programs and interventions that are proven to be successful. I never asserted that they had a 100 percent success rate, that would be ridiculous, but to say that you have no idea how to go about putting steps in place to prevent children from being abused, after being employed at CPS, is equally ridiculous. Now, if you said "but there's certainly not enough funding for those programs!," well, then we'd agree. 

I never said, "I have no idea how to go about putting steps I to place..." absolutely necessary never said that. I said I have no idea how to prevent any/all forms of child abuse and was lambasted for it even though none of you do either. 

The point is that it's ridiculous to expect a 20 year old newlywed to be able to do something that seasoned cps workers, psychologists, judges, politicians, etc cannot do.

[DaisyD]

13 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

Yes, some did say that, which is the whole point. Because when I pointed out the absurdity of it, I was basically called an idiot for admitting that I don't know how to end all child abuse and neither does anyone else. That was exactly my point, it's an absurd idea, yet you people are still arguing that I and others should somehow be able to do this. 

I never said, "I have no idea how to go about putting steps I to place..." absolutely necessary never said that. I said I have no idea how to prevent any/all forms of child abuse and was lambasted for it even though none of you do either. 

The point is that it's ridiculous to expect a 20 year old newlywed to be able to do something that seasoned cps workers, psychologists, judges, politicians, etc cannot do.

Again, you are the ONLY person who ever said ALL child abuse. If I'm wrong, prove it. Quote the person, other than yourself, who said that you have to come up with a way to stop ALL child abuse. The only thing anyone but you has been talking about is ways to help prevent. There is nothing absolute about it. 

No one suggested that Gabe come up with it either. People simply asked that he make suggestions for alternatives since he's so against government involvement.

I'm seriously starting to wonder who the fuck you actually are. You say you're fundie light but you argue like a downright bible thumper. That tactic isn't going to fly here. 

At any rate, I'm done repeating myself. Please, either learn reading comprehension or quit arguing points that haven't been made. If you want to actually discuss ways to prevent SOME child abuse, please do. If not, just leave it. You've backed yourself into a corner.

[Grimalkin]

1 hour ago, snarkysally said:

Yes, some did say that, which is the whole point. Because when I pointed out the absurdity of it, I was basically called an idiot for admitting that I don't know how to end all child abuse and neither does anyone else. That was exactly my point, it's an absurd idea, yet you people are still arguing that I and others should somehow be able to do this. 

I never said, "I have no idea how to go about putting steps I to place..." absolutely necessary never said that. I said I have no idea how to prevent any/all forms of child abuse and was lambasted for it even though none of you do either. 

The point is that it's ridiculous to expect a 20 year old newlywed to be able to do something that seasoned cps workers, psychologists, judges, politicians, etc cannot do.

  Okay, thanks for answering. I went and reread your posts. I see what you are saying.

      I think the child abuse question grew a life of its own. I don't expect him to have all the answers either. Not only is he young and childless, he seems to of grown up in a pretty well protected environment. Not to sound patronizing toward him, I wonder if he is a bit naive when it comes to things like that. He might truly be shocked if he were to find out someone he knew really well was abused, or how common it can be. People like to portray themselves as happy families. Especially on social media. A FB friend has a steady stream of posts portraying this happy family, and today my 10 year old came home and told me some things her friend confided in her at school ( her friend is from happy family) not abuse stuff, but things don't seem too well over there. It took me by surprise. Nobody wants others to see the bad stuff. Plus there is the whole competitive parenting aspect to deal with.

[charmedforsure]

22 minutes ago, FormerlyFundyLite said:

Sidebar (and I can't believe I missed @Gabe again--Hi!!!): Is STEAM a thing now? Science, technology, engineering, art, math? I saw it referenced in a HuffPo piece recently, which is the only reason I knew that a is for art. I seriously see the value of solid art education in terms of promoting creative thinking and just appreciating art for the sake of art, not to mention that there's some rather obscure ties between art and math (music theory, Fibonacci, golden spiral, etc). My art ed was, admittedly, meh at best--I was in band and learned (very poorly) about drawing in perspective and about pointilism. It just never occurred to me to put art in the same category as the others.

STEM is still the prevalence as the broad category. But with so many cuts to fine arts education in public schools now, there has been a movement towards calling it STEAM to really push the importance of the arts in education as a necessity for a well-rounded curriculum. 

During elementary school (outside of any art instruction I got in the G&T program), art class was 1 hour a week, music 1 hour a week (if you were in band/orchestra, you got another hour of music instruction weekly in grades 4-6), and our district provided a program for every school to have quarterly rotating fine art prints in every elementary classroom, where parent and community volunteers would come discuss the art with the class. Sadly, these "specials" are the first thing to go when testing scores aren't up to snuff and subsequent funding gets cut. And that's the opposite reaction of what needs to happen. (You can thank George W Bush for NCLB and the giant push of standardized testing for that... It's even more of a fustercluck now that Common Core is in play too.) Kids need/crave variety in what they are learning and participating in in order to keep them actively engaged in the core subjects (math, reading, writing). 

[Hummingbird]

Like @FleeJanaFree, ii'd like this discussion to get back to the lives of the Boyer Sisters. I understand Gabe is not wiling to discuss them as individuals, and I respect him for that. Still, I'd love to hear in general how he and Brigid negotiate various parts of their lives in relation to one another. I'd love to have insight into their relationship because I have never encountered one like it (given their backgrounds) in my personal life.

 

In general, what does the division of labor in the household look like so far?  Do you collaborate on sewing/costume/professional ideas? Do you hold public library cards and use them? Do you read to one another? Bounce ideas (professional, political, news of the day) off one another, or do you have other people in your lives to fill those roles?

 

I've said too much already and am too nosy, but seriously, I'd like to hear more from Gabe or any of the sisters so that I can better appreciate a lifestyle that, at first glance, seems so different from my own.

 

 

[ladyamylynn]

10 hours ago, snarkysally said:

Furthermore, i have seen first hand how broken the system is. I HAVE spent some time in CPS before I quickly got out because of the atrocities, and went to working in a school setting instead. I could also share hundreds of personal stories. 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

12 hours ago, snarkysally said:

I agree. I think a lot of children aren't even aware themselves as crazy as that may seem. It was all I knew. And I went to public school, so it's not that I wasn't around other kids or adults.

Well now try to imagine what would have happened if instead of being at school some hours every day you had been in your abusive family environment all.the.time. This is what happens to abused homeschooled children, they don't have those few hours when they know they are out of their abusers grasp. And thanks to some states laws there's not even hope that anyone would notice.

As an educator myself (even if I work with adults) I very much favor homeschooling and I can see the theorical educational benefits of well done unschooling too. But you can't deny that unsupervised and unregulated homeschooling can let abuse slip by completely unnoticed, as testified by well known and less known cases. It also increases the risk of sub par education (sorry I am a foreigner and this may impact my perspective, I consider bible-based curriculums a senseless relic of the middle ages, thinking that anyone considers creationism as a scientifically sound theory just blews my mind). SOTDRT is in many cases a sub par education. 

[nastyhobbitses]

5 hours ago, FormerlyFundyLite said:

Sidebar (and I can't believe I missed @Gabe again--Hi!!!): Is STEAM a thing now? Science, technology, engineering, art, math? I saw it referenced in a HuffPo piece recently, which is the only reason I knew that a is for art. I seriously see the value of solid art education in terms of promoting creative thinking and just appreciating art for the sake of art, not to mention that there's some rather obscure ties between art and math (music theory, Fibonacci, golden spiral, etc). My art ed was, admittedly, meh at best--I was in band and learned (very poorly) about drawing in perspective and about pointilism. It just never occurred to me to put art in the same category as the others.

Art is absolutely critical. Just as critical as STEM. I actually had a professor in grad school who made the case that the hyper-focus on STEM and only STEM (and within the context of standardized testing) has fueled radicalization around the world, because if you're pretty much only learning disciplines that have black-and-white, right-and-wrong answers at the expense of disciplines that teach you critical thinking, multiple perspectives, historical context, creativity, and nuance, your worldview will be horribly limited, and it will be easy for you to try to see the world as black-and-white, right-and-wrong, these people are good, these people are bad and it's OK for me to blow them up (with bombs I'm really good at making).

[formergothardite]

11 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Snarkysally, I'm confused at to what is bothering you. No one said abuse is only in homeschooling. No one said homeschooling is bad. The only thing said is that the lack of laws in many states make it very easy for homeschool children to be abused and neglected(physically, educationally) and that there needs to be more regulations to keep it from being so easy to use homeschooling to hide abuse and to keep children uneducated.  Is there anything in that statement that you disagree with? 

The issue with Gabe is that he claimed to not understand why people dislike SOTDR homeschooling since he had a great homeschool experience. He then got upset when I gave him real cases of abuse that happened because of the lack of homeschool laws. He then claimed that there was no need to regulate, tried to deflect the conversation, brought up a CPS story that doesn't sound real and he couldn't even keep straight, and then, since he is all gung-ho about stripping away any protection for homeschool kids via the government, was asked how he thought homeschool children should be protected. Do you truly think it is too much to ask that someone who is willing to remove government protection of children should have at least thought of another way to protect those children? 

Just because we can't stop all abuse doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop as much abuse as possible. Homeschooled children shouldn't have to wait for people to care about protecting them until all the public school problems are solved. Can you imagine if every time someone tried to discuss the problems in public school someone tried to deflect to talk about the problems with homeschooling? Why does that happen with homeschooling? 

Quoting myself because I have not been able to figure out what exactly got @snarkysally upset. You have also said twice that people said abuse was only a homeschooling problem, can you please quote for me where that happened? 

I personally think it sends a message to abused homeschooled children that they aren't important when every single time someone tries to discuss protecting them, a person swoops in to deflect to conversation to public school. 

The Boyer sisters, who we all know are reading here, seem to have given stuff away last week. I still want to know how they justify this vanity project of a blog as being modest. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 hours ago, snarkysally said:

1-Yes, some did say that, which is the whole point. Because when I pointed out the absurdity of it, I was basically called an idiot for admitting that I don't know how to end all child abuse and neither does anyone else. That was exactly my point, it's an absurd idea, yet you people are still arguing that I and others should somehow be able to do this. 

I never said, "I have no idea how to go about putting steps I to place..." absolutely necessary never said that. I said I have no idea how to prevent any/all forms of child abuse and was lambasted for it even though none of you do either. 

3-The point is that it's ridiculous to expect a 20 year old newlywed to be able to do something that seasoned cps workers, psychologists, judges, politicians, etc cannot do.

1- quote please, I've seen only you saying @formergothardite asked him to find a solution to ALL the child abuse. @formergothardite already repeatedly explained that wasn't the intended meaning of the question. 

2-please correct me if I'm wrong, you seemed to imply that since we seem unable to prevent ALL the child abuse ever then we should just stop trying and stop pressing for legislation aimed at making homeschooling parents accountable. I may very well have interpreted your words the wrong way though.

 3-if he is old enough to argument in favor of "less government" he is old enough to come up with an idea on who (and how) should protect vulnerable children since government shouldn't do it in his opinion. If he is old enough to vote he is old enough to teke responsibility for it and to defend his political ideas and to express an opinion on possible solutions to problems created by the policies he endorses. Signed someone who would like to thank some (not all, not even the majority) Americans for the Christmas present tagged ExxonMobil.

[formergothardite]

14 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

if he is old enough to argument in favor of "less government" he is old enough to come up with an idea on who (and how) should protect vulnerable children since government shouldn't do it in his opinion. If he is old enough to vote he is old enough to teke responsibility for it and to defend his political ideas and to express an opinion on possible solutions to problems created by the policies he endorses.

Exactly. I'm getting the impression that Gabe isn't a 20 year old, but even if he is, it is high time for him to start thinking about the realities of his beliefs. And the reality is that his anti-government beliefs leave homeschool children in a position where parents can murder them and it won't be noticed. And we know that because it has already happened. 

[Gabe]

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

Changing the subject a bit, I have lots of questions about daily life if @Gabe ever comes back.

Hi, project loading slowly at work today, so I have a few minutes to spare.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

gabe, you mentioned you differ a bit from your parent's stances on occasion. Could you expand on that? Religious difference? Education differences? Politically? I'm interested in your and Brigid's daily life, and how your upbringing and or religion plays a role in it.

This would require me not only to elucidate my own beliefs but also my parent's. I have minor differences in doctrine, differences in the sorts of books and media I consume and differences in how I want to raise my children and what educational subjects I will focus on. For example I favor the arts and storytelling where my engineering father emphasized math. This is a simplistic difference, the others are more personal.

I agree with them about 85-90%

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

do you live far from her family? She seems quite close to her family. Does she get to see her sisters frequently? If not, I imagine that's quite a culture shock for her. They appeared inseparable on their blog.

I think it's already pretty clear how far we live from her family. 3ish hours, we see them 1-2 times a month at least.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

would you oppose Brigid having a job if money needs didn't require it? (I.e. You COULD be the breadwinner, but Brigid wanted to work a regular 40 week job)

Not per se. My hope is that need does not require. I consider it less than ideal for the wife to work outside the home, but not a sinful calamity. Both of us are also pursuing work from home and our own entrepreneurial activities which I would love to see grow.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

would you oppose Brigid getting a bachelors degree?

Nope. I would be happy for her to get one as long as she doesn't get into debt.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

are you comfortable with Brigid's level of education to lead homeschool for any children you two have? Would you allow a child to choose public or private school?

I am comfortable with Brigid's education level. The second question is not one I have considered much. Public School is definitely off the table. If there is a need to integrate a sports program and work out a deal with a local school district I would consider allowing an athletic child to attend 1 or 2 classes in high school. Private school is a possibility but probably not until high school age.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

what would you do if a child was gay?

I don't believe in sexual orientation.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

what would you do if a child didn't share your religious beliefs? Or even went as far so say they were an atheist?

I would be sad.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

What would you do if a child came to you saying a family member molested them?

I would investigate it fully and take appropriate action. (Such action would be to immediately remove the child from access to that family member, and if necessary get a restraining order and/or file criminal charges.)

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

what would you do If you suspected a neighbor was being abused?

I would go to them first and offer to help. If I had actual evidence of crime I would report it to the proper authorities.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

do you believe there's a time and a place for blanket training, physical punishments, etc?

Yes.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

Do you believe a woman should always have sex with her husband if he wants it?

No.

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

do you regulate in any way Wordly influences? For example, the duggars have accountability partners when they leave the home, and Very limited internet. Such as can you both look at whatever you want on the internet, read whatever you want from the library, hang out with 'non modest' dressers? Example: Would you or Brigid read a book by a former IFBC cult member Jocelyn Zichterman? Is that considered 'dangerous', or would you snark on it the way I presume fundies snark on Fj? (And the way  we in turn snark on blogs such as the Boyers) Would you have a serious discussion about it, or downplay the dangers it exposes. (Don't be put off by the title! Lots of good discussion can be promoted by this book)

I will definitely monitor what my children read and watch to some degree. I also plan to follow the path my parents did, which was to tell me when I turned 18 that they would no longer try to control what I read or watched but that they trusted me to make my own decisions. I would also claim the right to restrict things I consider inappropriate within the jurisdiction of my home, if necessary.

Regarding Brigid, I have never restricted her "worldly influences" and can't imagine needing to,. (Or actually doing so.)

11 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

have there been any issues with disagreements between you and her former headship? How do you handle them, or how would you if it happens in the future?

This is an inappropriate question for a public forum.

Quote

Back to Gabe:  So, @Gabe, not making any assumptions and just responding to a statement you made yourself:  You believe marriage should be complementarian.  Can you describe in your own words what this means and how you and Brigid intend to implement this thinking in your marriage.  How does this differ from Patriarchal marriage?  What happens if you disagree about issues?  How have you seen complementarian marriages work for other couples?

These questions take time and writing to answer. I will have to file them away and see if I can address them when I have more time.

[formergothardite]

27 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I don't believe in sexual orientation.

Non-answer. So if your adult child said, I'm gay and I'm getting married. Would you accept that, attend the wedding and be non judgmental? If your teen son said "I"m gay" would you try to convince him he isn't? Would you say that it is a sin to be gay? 

Do you think the government should interfere with women making personal medical decisions or do you think the government should stay out of it? 

Do you think businesses should be able to ban black people because of the religious beliefs of the owner? 

 

[Gabe]

20 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

 

Ma'am it seems to me, you are just asking inflammatory questions in an attempt to delegitimize anything I say.

If you really care to know what I think, open up a Bible and read it through carefully. I believe what it says regarding these issues.

[formergothardite]

10 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Non-question. To answer it I must accept your premise. Which I will not do.

So if your child said, "I'm gay" what would you say? "I won't accept that?" if your child said "I'm gay and getting married." your response will be "I won't accept that."? If they sent you and invitation to the wedding and wanted you in it, would you go? 

Do you believe that the act of being gay is a sin?

 

[Grimalkin]

6 hours ago, charmedforsure said:

STEM is still the prevalence as the broad category. But with so many cuts to fine arts education in public schools now, there has been a movement towards calling it STEAM to really push the importance of the arts in education as a necessity for a well-rounded curriculum. 

During elementary school (outside of any art instruction I got in the G&T program), art class was 1 hour a week, music 1 hour a week (if you were in band/orchestra, you got another hour of music instruction weekly in grades 4-6), and our district provided a program for every school to have quarterly rotating fine art prints in every elementary classroom, where parent and community volunteers would come discuss the art with the class. Sadly, these "specials" are the first thing to go when testing scores aren't up to snuff and subsequent funding gets cut. And that's the opposite reaction of what needs to happen. (You can thank George W Bush for NCLB and the giant push of standardized testing for that... It's even more of a fustercluck now that Common Core is in play too.) Kids need/crave variety in what they are learning and participating in in order to keep them actively engaged in the core subjects (math, reading, writing). 

   Ours got cut because the board over spent for years. They are slowly being bought back. I think we did a good job as parents bringing art and gym to our schools.

      Cutting Art meant cutting teachers. It was still taught. Kids got an extra recess to make up gym. Yes, variety is needed, teachers can be creative on accomplishing that.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

4 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

So if your child said, "I'm gay" what would you say? "I won't accept that?" if your child said "I'm gay and getting married." your response will be "I won't accept that."? If they sent you and invitation to the wedding and wanted you in it, would you go? 

 

No he would tell him that sexual orientation doesn't exist. We are all unsexed amoebae. 

[formergothardite]

14 minutes ago, Gabe said:

 

Ma'am it seems to me, you are just asking inflammatory questions in an attempt to delegitimize anything I say.

If you really care to know what I think, open up a Bible and read it through carefully. I believe what it says regarding these issues.

Dude, I'm memorized huge parts of the Bible. I know the Bible pretty well.  One thing I can say is that the Bible doesn't actually speak against gay marriage as we know it now. 

So, what was said when your friends and family discussed abuse in homeschooling? Anyone come up with a plan to protect homeschool children from their parents? 

Gay teens are more likely to kill themselves. This is not being inflammatory, this is dealing with what happens to gay people when they are told they don't even exist. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I see we are already back to the good old "'cause bible says so".