The Boyer Sisters, Part 2

[nausicaa]

4 hours ago, snarkysally said:

And to the pp who mentioned one size fits all as an argument against homeschooling, it really doesn't get more "one size fits all" than public school where every child is taught the exact same curriculum in the exact same way.

Except for IEPs, special needs attendants, gifted and talented programs, IB and AP courses, guidance counselors, et cetera. 

I certainly don't think public school is perfect, but that's a flat out untrue statement. 

You seem to be defensive as a homeschooling parent. I would say  the vast majority of people on this site would say that there is good and bad homeschooling just as there is good and bad public schooling. (And as I've said in other posts, homeschooling is something I will seriously consider if I have children.) The issues most posters have are with the SOTDRT approach that some Fundie homeschooling parents take, and the complete lack of regulation in some states that can allow for abuse and neglect to go unchecked.

[ViolaSebastian]

1 minute ago, snarkysally said:

Seriously? He was not controlling, just suggesting some common sense guidelines. People on this site say some truly atrocious things about the people you snark on and I've never seen an apology. Why would you expect one for a courteous, respectful suggestion? Even if you disagree with the need for it, he was not rude, disrespectful or unkind to owe anyone an apology. This is completely ridiculous.

Well, @snarkysally, just as you suggest that Gabe is not responsible for the ills of homeschooling, I am not responsible for any words on this forum but my own. In the past, I have apologized for some of the comments I've made on this site. 

And yes, seriously, I want a real apology. Gabe did not *suggest* common sense guidelines, he stated that he would be responsible for dictating those guidelines. That is unacceptable. I would have been willing to draw up some guidelines with him and agree to a set of formalized rules, but I did not accept his attempt to be the singular controller of those rules. That is where the issue lies. That is not, by the way, a courteous or respectful suggestion. It was a unilateral demand that was extremely disrespectful.

Secondly, the man attempted to gaslight me by suggesting that he "implied" that he did not make such demands. He clearly did, as evidenced by the text he wrote. This is a common tactic of psychological abusers and manipulators. I will not accept attempts to do either.

[Palimpsest]

21 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

According to the news, NO ONE knows how to prevent all forms of child abuse which is why horrendous, unspeakable things happen every single day (and most of it is actually not in fundie communities or among homschoolers). You don't know how to prevent all child abuse any more than I do.

Note to self: this person also lacks reading comprehension and the FSM knows what news sources she's reading.

All child abuse, no. It is also hard to measure prevention.  However, I'd wager that my 20+ years working and teaching in the field of domestic violence prevention and adult protective services gives me a leg up on you.  I never worked for CPS but there is a hell of a lot of overlap.  It all has to do with families.  

I really don't have time to wipe the floor with you now, but I suggest you do some more reading about the importance of early identification and intervention, family support, and the crying need for adequate services before you mouth off at me again.

[Grimalkin]

    I already mentioned this but @snarkysally in my state I could just keep a kid home and never send them to school no questions asked free to do whatever. The only way I need to say anything is if I pull them out of public school. I just send a letter to the district. 

      It's true any kid can be abused. A kid in school can  at least see that maybe what's going on is not normal. Maybe get a break from home, see that there are other ways to do things. Maybe there is a kind teacher whose encouragement helps them keep going. They know at 18 they can get the heck out and have tools on how to function in the real world. 

     I think Alecia Pennington's story is remarkable. Take a minute to listen to her story on Radio Lab.

       I also think that there are lots of different ideas on what abuse is. Lisa Pennington got praised for spanking her baby until he said "good morning Mommy" and I'm not exaggerating this. She scrubbed it from her blog. It's somewhere on the Interwebz.

[snarkysally]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Except for IEPs, special needs attendants, gifted and talented programs, IB and AP courses, guidance counselors, et cetera. 

I certainly don't think public school is perfect, but that's a flat out untrue statement.

As someone who has dealt with public schools on many levels (as a student, as a parent, and as a faculty member), it absolutely is true for many public schools. These things may be on paper, but rarely in practice. The point was just to say, as I've said many times in this thread, that there are good and bad in both.

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Note to self: this person also lacks reading comprehension and the FSM knows what news sources she's reading.

All child abuse, no. It is also hard to measure prevention.  However, I'd wager that my 20+ years working and teaching in the field of domestic violence prevention and adult protective services gives me a leg up on you.  I never worked for CPS but there is a hell of a lot of overlap.  It all has to do with families.  

I really don't have time to wipe the floor with you now, but I suggest you do some more reading about the importance of early identification and intervention, family support, and the crying need for adequate services before you mouth off at me again.

I was referring to mainstream news sources, but it really isn't hard to find examples of unspeakable violence and abuse against children everywhere. Surely you arent implying that these instances are some kind of fake news?! 

Furthermore, i have seen first hand how broken the system is. I HAVE spent some time in CPS before I quickly got out because of the atrocities, and went to working in a school setting instead. I could also share hundreds of personal stories. The system is broken and there is truly nothing that fully works to protect children all the time. Read ANY news and you will read story after story of unspeakable abuse of chikdren. I have seen firsthand how those programs you speak of simply do not work to protect children, which is why I say honestly that i dont have an answer for the problem of child abuse. so do not lecture me about how I need to learn about child abuse prevention. I have lived it on many levels!

[DaisyD]

44 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

The system is broken and there is truly nothing that fully works to protect children all the time.

You're right. Clearly, since we aren't able to catch everything, we should just not bother to even try. Furthermore, any discussion of how to possibly make said system better in specific problem areas is a total waste of time. We should never even try to fix broken things. 

[snarkysally]

1 minute ago, DaisyD said:

You're right. Clearly, since we aren't able to catch everything, we should just not bother to even try. Furthermore, any discussion of how to possibly make said system better in specific problem areas is a total waste of time. We should never even try to fix broken things. 

I didn't say stop trying, but maybe don't attack someone who says they don't have all the answers when no one else does either.

[DaisyD]

6 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

I didn't say stop trying, but maybe don't attack someone who says they don't have all the answers when no one else does either.

You really are bad at reading comprehension. No one ever suggested that he have all of the answers. They asked him to propose alternative solutions since he's so against government intervention. 

[snarkysally]

Just now, DaisyD said:

You really are bad at reading comprehension. No one ever suggested that he have all of the answers. They asked him to propose alternative solutions since he's so against government intervention. 

No, i think you need the reading comprehension lesson. I said, I don't know how to prevent all child abuse and was told that I need to educate myself, and the conversation went on from there. Yes, I firmly admit I cannot prevent all child abuse, and any honest person would admit the same.

[FlamingFundie]

Perhaps a good start to aiding the prevention of abuse might be putting a hard limit on the actual definition? Because one can say a child was abused while the parent says he or she is simply "disciplining." Where exactly is the line? Leaving a mark? Bleeding? And what about mental/psychological/verbal abuse? How exactly to define and draw the line with that? As an abused child myself, I have avoided any involvement in such things as this because of triggers, but this discussion is showing me that I can be a part of the solution.

[DaisyD]

No one ever suggested that you try to prevent all child abuse. Every time abuse of homeschooled children comes up, you jump in with "Abuse everywhere!" (Paraphrasing). You said that no one can prevent it and tried to exert some kind of authority on the matter. You are deflecting from the actual conversation and getting pissy when challenged. No one but you is talking about all child abuse. You are the only one making those demands of yourself. 

[snarkysally]

3 minutes ago, FlamingFundie said:

Perhaps a good start to aiding the prevention of abuse might be putting a hard limit on the actual definition? Because one can say a child was abused while the parent says he or she is simply "disciplining." Where exactly is the line? Leaving a mark? Bleeding? And what about mental/psychological/verbal abuse? How exactly to define and draw the line with that? As an abused child myself, I have avoided any involvement in such things as this because of triggers, but this discussion is showing me that I can be a part of the solution.

I agree. I think a lot of children aren't even aware themselves as crazy as that may seem. It was all I knew. And I went to public school, so it's not that I wasn't around other kids or adults.

4 minutes ago, DaisyD said:

No one ever suggested that you try to prevent all child abuse. Every time abuse of homeschooled children comes up, you jump in with "Abuse everywhere!" (Paraphrasing). You said that no one can prevent it and tried to exert some kind of authority on the matter. You are deflecting from the actual conversation and getting pissy when challenged. No one but you is talking about all child abuse. You are the only one making those demands of yourself. 

Yes, I do say abuse everywhere because some here are trying to say it's only an issue with homeschooling and/or fundie families and that just isn't the case. I'm not deflecting. I admit I don't know how to prevent abuse of homeschool kids anymore than I do public school kids. There does not need to be a dichotomy at all. 

I did not assert authority. Someone else did that first in a very condescending way toward me, and I just said what I did because I'm not ignorant about the topic as that poster accused me of being.

I just don't understand why it's the responsibility of homeschool families to somehow make sure no child abuse ever happens within homeschooling when that same standard isn't required of the greater population. Child abuse is a bigger issue than just within homeschooling.

 

[FlamingFundie]

4 minutes ago, snarkysally said:

I agree. I think a lot of children aren't even aware themselves as crazy as that may seem. It was all I knew. And I went to public school, so it's not that I wasn't around other kids or adults.

Same here. I had no idea it wasn't the norm. I was in PS (and even the gifted program). I stayed at two separate friends' houses and a cousin's house growing up for sleepovers, and when each of them were beaten with a belt in front of me I just...tuned it out. I just froze.

Ive had, for a long time, an idea for some sort of social experiment/public service announcement floating in my head, but neither the money nor the connections to make it happen.

It would start with a man and woman somewhere public. She does something like spills her drink on the table or trips and runs into the man. He gets angry, yells, and slaps her. Then, separately, the same scenario but with an adult and a child. Imagine which one is illegal, and which one people would be most likely to jump to intervene? Why is it illegal to hit a spouse/another adult/an animal, but hitting a child is 'asserting authority,' 'teaching a lesson,' or 'showing child who is boss?' Why is spanking or belting a child even somewhat EXPECTED, as evident by the overheard conversations of my in-laws who have coached my SIL on how to spank/hit/beat her child?

[dairyfreelife]

8 minutes ago, FlamingFundie said:

Perhaps a good start to aiding the prevention of abuse might be putting a hard limit on the actual definition? Because one can say a child was abused while the parent says he or she is simply "disciplining." Where exactly is the line? Leaving a mark? Bleeding? And what about mental/psychological/verbal abuse? How exactly to define and draw the line with that? As an abused child myself, I have avoided any involvement in such things as this because of triggers, but this discussion is showing me that I can be a part of the solution.

As an educator, we were required to take mandatory reporter courses and they discuss how to recognize abuse beyond physical. Usually leaving marks is enough or any visible damage caused by the adult's "discipline". They go over mental/emotional and verbal abuse as well and discuss ways to recognize the abuse. They define physical, mental/emotional (which means psychological) and sexual abuse. The line is drawn related to serious fear or behavior that appears to come from tactics related to abusive methods. We have criteria for what represents abuse. Of course it can get fuzzy when people put perceptions in and assume things about someone and think it is abuse. A shy, nervous child is not necessarily being abused anymore than an outgoing, goofy child. Verbal and psychological abuse are much harder to deal with, for adults and the children subject to the abuse. It is much harder to prove since abusers have such control they manipulate their victims with the victims so psychologically damaged they think what is happening is the right way. Does it mean no children will ever fall through the cracks? Of course not. No matter what, things still get missed. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying and I think the greater populace ought to be aware of the tactics and as such would potential victims the awareness regarding what's happening before it gets too deep. 

[snarkysally]

11 minutes ago, FlamingFundie said:

It would start with a man and woman somewhere public. She does something like spills her drink on the table or trips and runs into the man. He gets angry, yells, and slaps her. Then, separately, the same scenario but with an adult and a child. Imagine which one is illegal, and which one people would be most likely to jump to intervene? Why is it illegal to hit a spouse/another adult/an animal, but hitting a child is 'asserting authority,' 'teaching a lesson,' or 'showing child who is boss?' Why is spanking or belting a child even somewhat EXPECTED, as evident by the overheard conversations of my in-laws who have coached my SIL on how to spank/hit/beat her child?

I agree. It's so prevalent in conservative circles (not even just fundie ones), and I'm conservative and probably even fundie lite in many ways, but I just cannot wrap my mind around the spanking thing it's truly appalling how prevalent and accepted it is. And people get so defensive about it when you call it what it is hitting. Whether it's classified as abuse  or not, spanking is by very definition, hitting a child. Why is this okay ever?

7 minutes ago, dairyfreelife said:

As an educator, we were required to take mandatory reporter courses and they discuss how to recognize abuse beyond physical. Usually leaving marks is enough or any visible damage caused by the adult's "discipline". They go over mental/emotional and verbal abuse as well and discuss ways to recognize the abuse. They define physical, mental/emotional (which means psychological) and sexual abuse. The line is drawn related to serious fear or behavior that appears to come from tactics related to abusive methods. We have criteria for what represents abuse. Of course it can get fuzzy when people put perceptions in and assume things about someone and think it is abuse. A shy, nervous child is not necessarily being abused anymore than an outgoing, goofy child. Verbal and psychological abuse are much harder to deal with, for adults and the children subject to the abuse. It is much harder to prove since abusers have such control they manipulate their victims with the victims so psychologically damaged they think what is happening is the right way. Does it mean no children will ever fall through the cracks? Of course not. No matter what, things still get missed. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying and I think the greater populace ought to be aware of the tactics and as such would potential victims the awareness regarding what's happening before it gets too deep. 

I definitely think we should keep trying! I never meant to imply otherwise, just a bit jaded I guess after seeing too many things even one child saved is worth all the classes and education. I guess that my assertion of not knowing how to prevent child abuse came from helplessness.

[formergothardite]

Snarkysally, I'm confused at to what is bothering you. No one said abuse is only in homeschooling. No one said homeschooling is bad. The only thing said is that the lack of laws in many states make it very easy for homeschool children to be abused and neglected(physically, educationally) and that there needs to be more regulations to keep it from being so easy to use homeschooling to hide abuse and to keep children uneducated.  Is there anything in that statement that you disagree with? 

The issue with Gabe is that he claimed to not understand why people dislike SOTDR homeschooling since he had a great homeschool experience. He then got upset when I gave him real cases of abuse that happened because of the lack of homeschool laws. He then claimed that there was no need to regulate, tried to deflect the conversation, brought up a CPS story that doesn't sound real and he couldn't even keep straight, and then, since he is all gung-ho about stripping away any protection for homeschool kids via the government, was asked how he thought homeschool children should be protected. Do you truly think it is too much to ask that someone who is willing to remove government protection of children should have at least thought of another way to protect those children? 

Just because we can't stop all abuse doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop as much abuse as possible. Homeschooled children shouldn't have to wait for people to care about protecting them until all the public school problems are solved. Can you imagine if every time someone tried to discuss the problems in public school someone tried to deflect to talk about the problems with homeschooling? Why does that happen with homeschooling? 

[anachronistic]

I am excited to ask @Gabe about his libertarian views and why he thinks a smaller government is better than a bigger one. And more specifically, which big government laws/Programs/policies have directly hurt or helped people he knows and / or hi,self? Not just losing money, but physical health wise?

my own example: I have government funded healthcare. Last spring I wrenched my back and now have an extruded disc that puts me in constant pain. Thanks to government healthcare, I can see doctors for this and get pain medications that enable me to live. The government also,pays for my psychiatric medication without which I would have killed myself long ago.

Another example. In places without laws protecting transgender people, some of my dear friends can't use the bathroom because they would have no legal recourse if they were harassed or assaulted. This results in them often not using the bathroom, drinking less, and getting UTIs, infections, etc.

so, seriously, Gabe, how is less government affecting your body or the bodies of your loved ones? Do you think I would be better off for having killed myself years ago? I'd really like to know.

[FleeJanaFree]

Changing the subject a bit, I have lots of questions about daily life if @Gabe ever comes back.

gabe, you mentioned you differ a bit from your parent's stances on occasion. Could you expand on that? Religious difference? Education differences? Politically? I'm interested in your and Brigid's daily life, and how your upbringing and or religion plays a role in it.

 

do you live far from her family? She seems quite close to her family. Does she get to see her sisters frequently? If not, I imagine that's quite a culture shock for her. They appeared inseparable on their blog.

 

would you oppose Brigid having a job if money needs didn't require it? (I.e. You COULD be the breadwinner, but Brigid wanted to work a regular 40 week job)

 

would you oppose Brigid getting a bachelors degree?

 

are you comfortable with Brigid's level of education to lead homeschool for any children you two have? Would you allow a child to choose public or private school?

 

what would you do if a child was gay?

 

what would you do if a child didn't share your religious beliefs? Or even went as far so say they were an atheist?

 

What would you do if a child came to you saying a family member molested them?

 

what would you do If you suspected a neighbor was being abused?

 

do you believe there's a time and a place for blanket training, physical punishments, etc?

 

Do you believe a woman should always have sex with her husband if he wants it?

 

do you regulate in any way Wordly influences? For example, the duggars have accountability partners when they leave the home, and Very limited internet. Such as can you both look at whatever you want on the internet, read whatever you want from the library, hang out with 'non modest' dressers? Example: Would you or Brigid read a book by a former IFBC cult member Jocelyn Zichterman? Is that considered 'dangerous', or would you snark on it the way I presume fundies snark on Fj? (And the way  we in turn snark on blogs such as the Boyers) Would you have a serious discussion about it, or downplay the dangers it exposes. (Don't be put off by the title! Lots of good discussion can be promoted by this book)

 

have there been any issues with disagreements between you and her former headship? How do you handle them, or how would you if it happens in the future?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, snarkysally said:

I agree. I think a lot of children aren't even aware themselves as crazy as that may seem. It was all I knew. And I went to public school, so it's not that I wasn't around other kids or adults.

Yes, I do say abuse everywhere because some here are trying to say it's only an issue with homeschooling and/or fundie families and that just isn't the case.   

 

As I said, you badly lack reading comprehension.  No-one has said on this thread that child abuse only occurs in homeschooling homes or is limited to Fundamentalist Christian families. 

Or you are attempting to gas light, just like Gabe.

I think you are completely full of it and are lying through your teeth about having ever worked for CPS, but you managed to take attention off Gabe quite nicely.  

BTW, why did you become a member of FJ if you think we are such horrible people?   You claimed to have been reading here since yuku so surely you knew what we do.

@dairyfreelife, well said.  Thank you.

[MargaretElliott]

13 minutes ago, FleeJanaFree said:

-snip- gabe, you mentioned you differ a bit from your parent's stances on occasion. Could you expand on that? Religious difference? Education differences? Politically? I'm interested in your and Brigid's daily life, and how your upbringing and or religion plays a role in it.

 

do you live far from her family? She seems quite close to her family. Does she get to see her sisters frequently? If not, I imagine that's quite a culture shock for her. They appeared inseparable on their blog.

 

would you oppose Brigid having a job if money needs didn't require it? (I.e. You COULD be the breadwinner, but Brigid wanted to work a regular 40 week job)

 

would you oppose Brigid getting a bachelors degree?

 

are you comfortable with Brigid's level of education to lead homeschool for any children you two have? Would you allow a child to choose public or private school?

 

what would you do if a child was gay?

 

what would you do if a child didn't share your religious beliefs? Or even went as far so say they were an atheist?

 

What would you do if a child came to you saying a family member molested them?

 

what would you do If you suspected a neighbor was being abused?

 

do you believe there's a time and a place for blanket training, physical punishments, etc?

 

Do you believe a woman should always have sex with her husband if he wants it?

 

do you regulate in any way Wordly influences? For example, the duggars have accountability partners when they leave the home, and Very limited internet. Such as can you both look at whatever you want on the internet, read whatever you want from the library, hang out with 'non modest' dressers? Example: Would you or Brigid read a book by a former IFBC cult member Jocelyn Zichterman? Is that considered 'dangerous', or would you snark on it the way I presume fundies snark on Fj? (And the way  we in turn snark on blogs such as the Boyers) Would you have a serious discussion about it, or downplay the dangers it exposes. (Don't be put off by the title! Lots of good discussion can be promoted by this book)

 

have there been any issues with disagreements between you and her former headship? How do you handle them, or how would you if it happens in the future?

First of all, Hi @Gabe  I, too, would be fascinated to know the answers to any questions you feel comfortable answering. All of these are wonderful questions. BUT, expect pushback if you respond! We're a snark website after all. Many of the posters are hard-working, career-driven, college-educated women (well, I am, at least). We're not going to pull any punches. Basically, if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. That being said, I am very interested in the answers to all the questions above, and would appreciate it if you took the time to respond to even a few.

[Grimalkin]

Speaking for myself, I am fine with @Gabe picking and choosing what questions he wants to answer. I'm happy he is here, I have no problems with him. I realize he will not agree with me on many things and probably never will. 

[DaisyD]

9 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

Speaking for myself, I am fine with @Gabe picking and choosing what questions he wants to answer. I'm happy he is here, I have no problems with him. I realize he will not agree with me on many things and probably never will. 

The only way to learn is to hear opinions different from your own. As long as people are respectful and at least a little open minded, it's all for the better.

[FleeJanaFree]

I realized I forgot the title of the book I mentioned- it's called I Fired God.

[ViolaSebastian]

Wait, wait, wait. You worked for CPS and for a school, and you have no idea how to begin to prevent child abuse? You think that both of those activities would give you some insight into some basic ideas to address the problem. In your time working for CPS, did it never occur to you to recommend drug treatment programs, parenting classes, in-home visits, scheduled respite care, mental health services, etc.? I mean, these are all proven to be effective in reducing the rates of child abuse.

[snarkysally]

2 hours ago, DaisyD said:

The only way to learn is to hear opinions different from your own. As long as people are respectful and at least a little open minded, it's all for the better.

This is so interesting because the people here (most, not all!) Have proven themselves anything but open minded. It's hilarious to me because in so many instances you all are exactly like the fundie people you snark except a dogmatic "liberal" version of it...it's still just as closed minded, but you won't admit it (ha...another thing in common).

25 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Wait, wait, wait. You worked for CPS and for a school, and you have no idea how to begin to prevent child abuse? You think that both of those activities would give you some insight into some basic ideas to address the problem. In your time working for CPS, did it never occur to you to recommend drug treatment programs, parenting classes, in-home visits, scheduled respite care, mental health services, etc.? I mean, these are all proven to be effective in reducing the rates of child abuse.

Wow, if there are ways to completely wipe out child abuse, then why is it still going on? It's absurd to say you know how to prevent all child abuse when it's obviously impossible. If you had to see a child returned to abusive parents who you KNEW had not changed at all and there was not a thing you could do about it, you might get a little jaded, too.