The Boyer Sisters, Part 2

[FormerlyFundyLite]

I missed it! Argh!

@Gabe, thanks so much for stopping by and, as others have said, being a good sport and willing to answer questions. My question is really rather silly, but if you ever stop by again, I am curious whether you chose the Sleeping at Last song for the wedding, or whether Brigid chose it. I've loved Sleeping at Last ever since I saw them at a concert at my State University in 2005 (yes, I'm "old" ), and I was thrilled that you guys chose to incorporate one of their songs into your lovely wedding (I truly did think it was quite nice--which might put me in a medium-large-sized minority around here).

Congratulations and Merry Christmas!

[FormerlyFundyLite]

Maybe I'm being too generous, but, for what it's worth, I didn't get the impression that he was demanding special treatment. I think that by suggesting we start a new thread for the proposed debate, he was honestly trying to be polite and not hi-jack this thread. As for the proposed rules--they look like normal debate rules to me (a non-debater). Debating is a pretty popular fundie and/or homeschool activity, so I don't think he was trying to come stomping in and insist that we do things his way--it would take a lot of time to pick and choose and then answer questions in a Q&A format (the man is a newlywed, after all!) Maybe he just thought debating in a separate thread would help keep things organized. It takes a while to learn FJ culture, so I'm willing to cut him some slack on this one--he probably just didn't understand that things don't work that way around here.

The non-apology, though @Gabe, they've got a point about that one. When you try to say sorry with an "If", it's not really an apology, and it's certainly not a strong apology.

[samurai_sarah]

33 minutes ago, FormerlyFundyLite said:

(snip)

As for the proposed rules--they look like normal debate rules to me (a non-debater). Debating is a pretty popular fundie and/or homeschool activity, so I don't think he was trying to come stomping in and insist that we do things his way--it would take a lot of time to pick and choose and then answer questions in a Q&A format (the man is a newlywed, after all!) Maybe he just thought debating in a separate thread would help keep things organized.

(snip)

I understand what you're saying, but we don't give anyone here preferential treatment. If you (general) come to FJ, you agree to abide by the rules. It is up to individual posters to answer or ignore posts. Gabe had that option, chose not to exercise it, and instead asked for special rules. What it comes down to is that he's an FJer now, and no one here is a speshul snowflake.

[FormerlyFundyLite]

12 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

no one here is a speshul snowflake.

My post count says otherwise

In all seriousness though, I agree that he has to follow the rules the same as you or I do. I'm just saying that, in reality, it takes a while to get the culture down (I lurked for years before mustering up the chutzpah to post!) and he might have just forgotten.

[formergothardite]

He might have misunderstood, but I think he very much wanted to control the conversation as much as possible. 

[samurai_sarah]

Just now, FormerlyFundyLite said:

My post count says otherwise

In all seriousness though, I agree that he has to follow the rules the same as you or I do. I'm just saying that, in reality, it takes a while to get the culture down (I lurked for years before mustering up the chutzpah to post!) and he might have just forgotten.

Totally understand what you're saying, and it's very compassionate of you. But "forgetting" is not a good enough excuse to ask for special treatment. We don't do preferential treatment on FJ.

[Palimpsest]

 

1 hour ago, FormerlyFundyLite said:

I didn't get the impression that he was demanding special treatment. I think that by suggesting we start a new thread for the proposed debate, he was honestly trying to be polite and not hi-jack this thread. As for the proposed rules--they look like normal debate rules to me (a non-debater). Debating is a pretty popular fundie and/or homeschool activity, so I don't think he was trying to come stomping in and insist that we do things his way--it would take a lot of time to pick and choose and then answer questions in a Q&A format (the man is a newlywed, after all!) Maybe he just thought debating in a separate thread would help keep things organized. It takes a while to learn FJ culture, so I'm willing to cut him some slack on this one--he probably just didn't understand that things don't work that way around here.

 

5 minutes ago, FormerlyFundyLite said:

My post count says otherwise

True.  Thanks for making me laugh!

Quote

In all seriousness though, I agree that he has to follow the rules the same as you or I do. I'm just saying that, in reality, it takes a while to get the culture down (I lurked for years before mustering up the chutzpah to post!) and he might have just forgotten.

Yes, he does have to follow the same rules.  What @samurai_sarah, said.  It would also set a terrible precedent if Fundies got special treatment.  Imagine Ken or Cabinetman given the privilege of special treatment.  Or the Gnostic Bishop.  

I advise people to lurk for a while anywhere, not just FJ, to get a sense of the culture.  Especially true when you are going into potentially hostile territory.

As @formergothardite, Gabe wanted to control the discussion from the beginning.  Gabe came bouncing in with a lot of misconceptions, claiming that he knew about FJ, and that the Boyer sisters giggled about our speculation.  

He set reasonable boundaries at first - he only wanted to discuss himself and his clothes.  He put the Boyer sisters off-limits straight out of the gate, and that was fine by me.  Then he panicked and got demanding.

Here's what Gabe actually said, BTW.  My bolding:

Quote

I want rules to limit the topic and scale of the debate. As I said, I don't have the time to answer 5-20 people posting unsubstantiated claims.

My rule suggestions are these.

A topic

There's only one of me so I would prefer to face only one of you.

Statistics and stories must be backed up with references to at least one news report verifying each assertion. 

The debate will last for less than 1 week. (I am suggesting 4 days)

Each day the debaters are responsible for a single post in favor of their point and a rebuttal which quotes and dissects their opponents assertions. No more, no less.

Additional rules could be agreed on if necessary but those are my suggestions, you can take them or leave them.

We left them. 

[formergothardite]

I doubt he ever really wanted an actual debate. He wanted control. He said he would answer questions about himself, then when I asked him how he would protect homeschooling children since he believed in no government oversight, he initially claimed that he wouldn't discuss his beliefs because this was a thread about the Boyer sisters. When he was informed that that wasn't an issue here, 

He then went with this:

Quote

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate. If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you

.This was all about him gaining control of the conversation. 

He also threw in this:

Quote

My presence here was to answer questions about myself not explain the misdeeds of people I never knew.

Which makes no sense since people were asking him questions about himself, but he was trying to imply they weren't. That was another attempt to take control by trying to change the narrative to make it seem like we were saying things we didn't say. 

[Palimpsest]

I still suspect he also wanted to sell his kilts.  But I'm feeling old and cynical right now and may be misjudging him.

[refugee]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Miss Racquel's little buddy?  Well done.

Why so he did - I can't remember if we decided he was just playing us.  Does Josiah still hang out with the orphan hugger?

I was thinking of someone else, who has come back a few times.  I remember now who it was, but the thanks were via PM.  He sounded sincere.

He was friends with her brother, I think, rather than the muchly tattooed pome-writing would-be novelist.

He was not playing FJ. He was as sincere in those Joseycat posts (some time after leaving churchianity) as he had been in the earlier patriarchal posts when he was still a staunch member of a cultish church. He has a completely different lifestyle now. 

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, refugee said:

He was not playing FJ. He was as sincere in those Joseycat posts (some time after leaving churchianity) as he had been in the earlier patriarchal posts when he was still a staunch member of a cultish church. He has a completely different lifestyle now. 

Thank you for the info.  Wow, well done, Josiah.  That is good to know.

[MargaretElliott]

Were we wondering whether the girls drove in the last thread? I feel like that was a thing. Anywho, the answer is yes, and Jessica learned how to drive a manual. Yes, I'm delving deep into this rabbit hole instead of doing the things I actually need to do, because I'm a responsible adult.

[PopRox]

@MargaretElliott Best of wishes with your writing process!

[Vex]

Not sure if @Gabe still reads here, but if he does:

The reason the secular film projects didn't credit you on imdb is because they expect you to credit yourself. It's not the job of anyone who works on the movie to dole out imdb credits. It's up to those who do the work themselves to keep track. You aren't owed credit on imdb just because you did professional work in the industry.

I am a former professional actor who has worked in theatre, radio, TV and film. Off the top of my head I've done one film, one television ad, about a dozen radio ads, half a dozen or more radio plays and done voice work on at least 3 cartoon series. I only have one credit, and that's for the film. The only reason I have that credit (which I did not write myself, nor did anyone from the production) was because the movie won a major Oscar and thus attracted a lot of attention. Indie film makers who DO have someone from production dole out imdb credits do it because they desperately need to get their name out there and visible on the resumes on as many members of the cast and crew as possible. Please don't paint a lack of crediting as being discourteous.

[FormerlyFundyLite]

I'm not expressing myself clearly. I got the impression that @Gabe wanted rules for the debate that he proposed--not overarching speshul snowflake FJ rules, more of a one time thing. Did he speak our language in proposing the debate? No. Was his "apology" anything but? Of course. Did he get defensive and flouncey? Yeah.

I just don't see the drama in proposing a format he felt comfortable with when he felt like he was in semi-hostile territory from the start. I'd probably have done the same thing if I were him (and had been brave enough to wade in so quickly! )

Again, I guess I come down more on the side of giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Even though I'm sure we all would disagree with him about some or many things (we disagree amongst ourselves all the time--keeps it fun), he is still a person. It would've been interesting to hear his take on things--regardless of the format. 

 

[nickelodeon]

Was there hostility that he needed rules to help filter though? He got a ton of responses that were just "Hi Gabe! Thanks for being a good sport, and might I add your kneesocks are fierce?" and a handful of serious questions and immediately he's going on about how the "mob" is "dogpiling" him.

[Lurky]

2 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

Was there hostility that he needed rules to help filter though? He got a ton of responses that were just "Hi Gabe! Thanks for being a good sport, and might I add your kneesocks are fierce?" and a handful of serious questions and immediately he's going on about how the "mob" is "dogpiling" him.

Yeah, this.  Plus people talking about how they thought he was attractive etc, after he'd joined the thread, and saying what a lovely wedding it was.  

Like @Palimpsest, I would have backed him forever in the whole "I can't talk about the Boyer blog", because that's absolutely fair enough (and completely admirable that a Fundy man is not talking for the women near him). Things took a turn for the snarky after he put up his need for a debate rather than a conversation, and truthfully, I'm not surprised. 

@FormerlyFundyLite  I went to a school where debating skills were important too (it's not just homeschooling that does this) and so I know that a debate is by nature competitive.  It's not a tool to help people understand each others' sides, and maybe change people's minds - it's specifically a competition where one side wins and the other loses, and the key thing I was taught about debating is that one doesn't have to believe in what one's arguing, it's just about winning (which is why sides are often drawn at random.  

The way Gabe put down his rules (only 1 citation, for example, which is completely weird to me, as a history graduate) made it clear that he was going for this competitive model - especially as he wanted to make the rules, and expected us to abide by them.

Had he said "Look, I'm a bit apprehensive because there's only one of me, and so many of you.  I feel like I might be dogpiled, and I especially want to have the space to give time to my answers - is there any way we can make it feel a bit more fair?", then people could have explained how the AMAs that go on work, or come up with ideas to help him out.  Again, I'd have felt sympathy for him here, too.   (Plus it would have been a clever tactic, too, admitting some vulnerability generally makes an audience friendlier  )   But he didn't, he went with the approach laid out upthread, and got the same responses anyone would have got had we done that (actually, kinder, because can you imagine if someone had done that in eg the Peanut  Butter Wars, or one of the other Dreaded Topics of Doom?)

I do have some sympathy, because this is one of those problems about some homeschooling approaches, that focus on debate etc, but don't give the kids the chance to learn about wider ways to communicate - when I think of debate-heavy homeschooling, I think of the Jeubs, and that's a classic case in point.   And of course it's not like public school helps all kids have the confidence to talk to groups of people who disagree with them, but having lessons with kids who have the completely opposite take on a character in a book, or an aspect of history, or whatever, can really help kids learn how to do conversation with people they disagree with.  

TL;DR I'll cut him some slack for being apprehensive, and not wanting to take on all of FJ at once, but not for his proposed solution, or the fact he made it clear he'd only engage on his own terms.

[catlady]

And there was no need for a formal debate. He already had (and still has,if he chooses to return) the ability to answer or avoid whatever he wanted. That was demonstrated early on when someone asked him about how many children he planned on having. He replied that this was a private subject; everyone here accepted his answer and moved on. So he has all the control he needs over what he says, and it's the same level of control we all have. 

I can see that he felt like he was dog-piled, but it was really that he wandered into a crowded room, identified himself, was overwhelmed by the sheer number of people who wanted to talk directly to him, and was further overwhelmed by the fact that some of the questions were on subjects he wasn't prepared to discuss. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

57 minutes ago, catlady said:

And there was no need for a formal debate. He already had (and still has,if he chooses to return) the ability to answer or avoid whatever he wanted. That was demonstrated early on when someone asked him about how many children he planned on having. He replied that this was a private subject; everyone here accepted his answer and moved on. So he has all the control he needs over what he says, and it's the same level of control we all have. 

I can see that he felt like he was dog-piled, but it was really that he wandered into a crowded room, identified himself, was overwhelmed by the sheer number of people who wanted to talk directly to him, and was further overwhelmed by the fact that some of the questions were on subjects he wasn't prepared to discuss. 

I was actually quite surprised at how slow the thread was. I thought that people might come running to the thread if they heard it was Fundie Friday. I was watching the thread and he seemed to have a decent amount of time to answer each question with some thought. But it's a new forum to him so it probably was a little overwhelming at first. And I totally agree with Lurky's assessment of how homeschooling pushes formal debate but not regular old conversation where you just talk about your differing opinions. I've seen that from a few fundie homeschooling families. 

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

Was there hostility that he needed rules to help filter though? He got a ton of responses that were just "Hi Gabe! Thanks for being a good sport, and might I add your kneesocks are fierce?" and a handful of serious questions and immediately he's going on about how the "mob" is "dogpiling" him.

Exactly. He seemed to get greatly offended by my reply to him about why some people aren't huge fans of homeschooling. I think the real problem is that despite his claims of "thinking for himself" his replies show he is heavily indoctrinated with right wing anti-government propaganda and even the most nicely worded questions threw him off because he has never been taught to see things in that way. 

I still think he just wanted control after realizing he was out of his league.  He was all happy to answer questions about himself and his beliefs without rules until he realized that he wasn't as prepared as he believed he was to discuss his belief system. 

[desertvixen]

I read all of it after it had happened, but yes - everyone was pretty polite and welcoming.  It seemed like after @formergothardite started asking questions that were basically "it's cool you had awesome homeschooling parents, but what about all the people who are suffering" - especially from someone who's lived the lifestyle - and then his shady reaction to her question started getting more people asking questions. 

Also, it would be a nice switch if people would stop coming over here assuming we're all godless atheist manhating bitches... not that there's anything wrong with that, but we do have more diversity than that!

[EmiGirl]

1 hour ago, desertvixen said:

Also, it would be a nice switch if people would stop coming over here assuming we're all godless atheist manhating bitches... not that there's anything wrong with that, but we do have more diversity than that!

THIS! I think that the fundies just cant grasp that a Christian could not adhere to the patriarchal lifestyle. Of course, let's remember that in their opinion I'm probably not a "real" christian because I believe in evolution and am in a more or less egalitarian marriage.

[Palimpsest]

16 hours ago, FormerlyFundyLite said:

Again, I guess I come down more on the side of giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Even though I'm sure we all would disagree with him about some or many things (we disagree amongst ourselves all the time--keeps it fun), he is still a person. It would've been interesting to hear his take on things--regardless of the format. 

I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt until they blot their copybooks.  Look, we treated Gabe as a person, please show me where we did not.

In fact we treated him rather nicely - until he started trying to set his own rules.  Then I laughed at him.

We have other people here who identify as Fundie, or Fundie in recovery.  Several, in fact.   Case in point, Kristina, who never demanded special treatment, and who has explained herself many times, just made a return visit.  I've gone hammer and nails after Kristina - but she gives as good as she gets.

Or does Gabe need special snowflake treatment because he is male?  I really don't think so.  

In the past I have objected to instant attacks on Fundies before they are warranted (IMO.) This was definitely not one of them.

 

[Gabe]

Hello everyone. I have had a very busy few weeks, and so have you. The theories fly thick and fast and are as entertaining as always. I am afraid it shall have to be hello and goodbye for now. I don't think I will have much time over the holidays to be available for any interaction.

I had sent my darling wife away on a girls Christmas shopping trip last time I came for a visit, that is how I found the time to spend here. 

My "infamous" rules were aimed at time and expectation management. You can impute control motives into them all the live long day but it won't make it true. 

I salute those of you who were kind enough to assume the best. I shall continue to laugh at those who assume the worst.

And I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

Don't look for me until January and I will see if I can carve an afternoon out for some intellectual engagement and try not to descend too quickly into snark... 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

What's wrong with snark? I love it.