Counting On Season Two- Part 4

[alba]

1 hour ago, VixenToast said:

I dislike the formality of woman/women. I generally don't use girl to refer to an adult. I usually just use lady/ladies. Also a millennial here.

I HAAAAAATTTEEEE 'Ladies'. It's far too classist/sexist for me. I think that might be a cultural thing, though; here "ladies and gentlemen" refers to a specific societal group, of which I am not a part, and "Lady" is actually a title, which is generally based on a woman's father or husband's standing.

Though I do agree I find woman/women often feels weird to me when talking about female individuals my age or younger (I'm a millennial, too), I suppose because for most of my life 'woman' referred to someone older than me. But context matters. I use 'girl' where I would use 'boy' for a male individual, like when I'm talking about my friends or my younger sister's friends, but I would never use 'girl' where I would use 'man' for a male individual, like when I'm talking about someone at the office. And IMO there's a huge difference between me saying something like, 'Remember the girl with the short brown hair?' when talking about a friend to Mr Alba, and having a male colleague say, 'She's the girl in the glasses' about me.

That said, I am making a concerted effort to start calling women my age 'women' because, well, we are.

[Illmarryyoujana]

Personally, I identify as a girl first and woman second. That's not to say I think of myself as immature or lesser. I just prefer girl. Woman is extremely formal, and for me personally, an extension of the word man. Girl however makes me feel feminine and powerful. Girl is completely separate from any masculine term. I understand though that depending on who it comes from and how it's said, it can take on an offensive tone. Everyone is different, but I honestly prefer not to be called a woman over girl.

[Mrs Ms]

I use girls in the same context as boys (girls night out = boys night out) and not when talking about individual adults. I use guys as a group word and really want to change that because it really isn't gender neutral and it reminds me of Jim Bob way to often! lol

These days I usually use lady/ladies as it was soooooo much easier to tell the difference when teaching the then toddler to talk and has stuck ever since.

As I wrote a number of years ago here, the ONLY time I refer to my partner as babysitting our child/children is if we are both invited somewhere and he stays home with said child/children instead of us getting a sitter - I use the same term then for myself if I stay home. 

[alba]

I use girls in the same context as boys (girls night out = boys night out) and not when talking about individual adults. I use guys as a group word and really want to change that because it really isn't gender neutral and it reminds me of Jim Bob way to often! lol

This actually brings up an interesting point. A couple of people have brought up the feeling that "woman" is formal, but for men there are informal alternatives that don't refer to children: guy, bloke, lad, etc. I can't think of a single equivalent term for a woman.

[Mrs Ms]

12 minutes ago, alba said:

 

This actually brings up an interesting point. A couple of people have brought up the feeling that "woman" is formal, but for men there are informal alternatives that don't refer to children: guy, bloke, lad, etc. I can't think of a single equivalent term for a woman.

 

Of those 3 terms, only "guy" would mean man to me. Lad would be in the same category as lass or gal - so an old-fashioned term for child or teen and here in New Zealand "bloke" is a certain type of man. The quiet, rugged, works with his hands, drinks beers, probably plays rugby and is pretty handy at fixing things type

[alba]

Of those 3 terms, only "guy" would mean man to me. Lad would be in the same category as lass or gal - so an old-fashioned term for child or teen and here in New Zealand "bloke" is a certain type of man. The quiet, rugged, works with his hands, drinks beers, probably plays rugby and is pretty handy at fixing things type

Must be regional, then! Lad is pretty common here for "man" in the same way women are often referred to as girls, eg. "lads' night out" or "going out with the lads". It can have negative connotations, though, as in "lads' mags".

I don't think either "lad" or "bloke" is common in the US, but "guy" at least is, and there's no equivalent female noun.

[Gillyweed]

50 minutes ago, alba said:

 

Must be regional, then! Lad is pretty common here for "man" in the same way women are often referred to as girls, eg. "lads' night out" or "going out with the lads". It can have negative connotations, though, as in "lads' mags".

I don't think either "lad" or "bloke" is common in the US, but "guy" at least is, and there's no equivalent female noun.

 

Where I live, sooo many people say "you guys" or "hey guys" when addressing a group, no matter what gender. I'm one of them. It's like our version of y'all. When I was a camp counselor I had to stop starting every sentence with "okay, guys..." Because the little girls didn't realize I was including them in that term. 

[montyollie]

I will add one more thing to the girl/woman conversation.

I refer to myself as female-bodied or "assigned female at birth" as although I might have female body parts, I have gender identity issues and do not identify as female.  I call myself genderqueer or genderfluid or gender variant.  I use the "they them their" pronouns and prefer to be called a person rather than a specific gender.

I wouldn't be on FJ if I didn't rail against patriarchal culture and gendered nonsense.  I despise how the Duggars and all fundies define you at birth by a cursory glance at your genitalia and from that moment on you are completely socialized one way or another.  Kids aren't allowed to come into their own at all.

Statistically, one or two of the Duggar kids should be LGBTQ.  My heart breaks for any kids who might be trans or fall along a gender variant spectrum in that culture.  I grew up fundie, and although roles for women and girls were VERY rigidly defined, I just naturally didn't abide by them and I was lucky in that my mom felt like she couldn't force it on me, so I got to be me.  Despite the fundie world we lived in.

[VelociRapture]

My thoughts?

- Use whatever term you feel comfortable with in a casual or social setting. In a professional setting, err on the side of caution and use "woman" or "man."

- If someone uses a term to describe you that makes you uncomfortable, ask them not to call you that in the future. Offer an alternative term if you want to or are asked.

- If someone asks you not to use that term to describe them, be polite and go along with it. If you don't know another term that would be appropriate, ask for one.

So.... basically, just don't be an inconsiderate asshole.

And as an aside - My Grandparents are 84. Grandpa is still ridiculously energetic and mentally together, so he's still working as an Engineer (independent contractor - he is very good at what he does). He laughs about it at times, but he does occasionally slip up and call women "girls" by mistake - because that was the norm when he was a child and younger man. He almost always realizes the mistake and corrects himself immediately though. 

Just wanted to share because it can be a tough habit to break and it's not always something someone does that is meant to be insulting or infantilizing. 

[Four is Enough]

Back in my hospital days, some doctors would call the nurses by their first names. However, unless I am extended the same privilege, I ask you to call me "Ms. Four."  and I would say, "You may call me Ms. Four".... After Mr. Four and I got married, I kept my maiden name, and so I even called my husband "Dr. Four" when we were in front of patients together. I guess I'm old fashioned but I expect respect, and so I give respect. So don't call me "hon, sweetie, girlie," or anything like that. I won't answer.

[Jana814]

My parents are still called Mr/Mrs last name by a few people.  A group of 5 woman (4 sisters plus a family friend) still do & they are all older then 45. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

Back in my hospital days, some doctors would call the nurses by their first names. However, unless I am extended the same privilege, I ask you to call me "Ms. Four."  and I would say, "You may call me Ms. Four".... After Mr. Four and I got married, I kept my maiden name, and so I even called my husband "Dr. Four" when we were in front of patients together. I guess I'm old fashioned but I expect respect, and so I give respect. So don't call me "hon, sweetie, girlie," or anything like that. I won't answer.

After years of working in Transportation I just come to expect names like this from some parts of the country. I used to get it a lot when calling down into the deep south, small city areas, you call and whom ever you talk too will either great you with Hey sweetie say goodbye with a "thanks sugar" as a young woman I HATED that, but learned that it was their show of respect. I don't get it nearly as much now that the folks I'm working with are younger than I am or my age, or just a little older. in 1996 when I was 25 and talking to people in their 50's and 60's from Arkansas or Mississippi, its just what I got.  I also worked with truck drivers and now manual day laborers  when working with certain sects of society, especially the dirty blue collar folks, you grow a thick skin and learn that 98% of what is said to you is said in a good spirit. I can't change everyone I work with so I've just learned to adapt. You know its going to be a rough work environment when in the interview they ask if you can handle foul language being called honey or things like that. I'm in unique situation, a liberal feminist who doesn't mind being called girl, honey, sugar or sweetie, simply because of the industries I've worked in.  But i do love working somewhere I can say fuck when ever I want too. 

42 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

My parents are still called Mr/Mrs last name by a few people.  A group of 5 woman (4 sisters plus a family friend) still do & they are all older then 45. 

I'm 46 and still call an old neighbor couple Mr & Mrs and so do my kids.  These two are in their early 90's now and lucky still live at home. Everyone in town calls them either Mr. Floyd or Mrs. Alice  Or Mr & Mrs  

[JenniferJuniper]

9 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

Oh 1000x times  a like on this one!  I was called "the new HR gal" by the school superintendent in a VERY public meeting two years ago... I responded to him with (after dying inside, for ten seconds, after 30 years in the field) .... "I am the new HR professional."  

Yeah, I don't work there anymore.

Back around 1990 I was tasked with running a two day training session for a large number of employees.  A few weeks later, some senior manager stopped me in the hallway and said, "Are you the little girl who ran that session?"   I was in my late 20's, but almost certainly would have lost my job for some fake reason if I pointed that out.  "So I nodded instead.  "Where did you get those sandwiches, I want my girl to order some for my next meeting".

It's 1000X better now, but just this week one of my reports told me she (yes, she) "just left a message for the girl in the office" when explaining what was happening with a case.   Me:  "Your kidding!  I had no idea they hired children there!"

[QuiverDance]

17 hours ago, Fascinated said:

Yikes. I call women in my real life girls. As in: I'm meeting the girls for lunch, or, we're going on a girls' weekend. Is that bad?  Telling my husband that I'm meeting the women for lunch sounds odd to me. However, if I were referring to, say, my daughter-in-law, I wouldn't say, 'this girl is awesome', I'd say, 'she's a spectacular woman'.  But, on the other hand, I would say, 'she's a great girl'!  Hmm. Do I suck?

 

No, you do not suck.

[JenniferJuniper]

8 hours ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

Personally, I identify as a girl first and woman second. That's not to say I think of myself as immature or lesser. I just prefer girl. Woman is extremely formal, and for me personally, an extension of the word man. Girl however makes me feel feminine and powerful. Girl is completely separate from any masculine term. I understand though that depending on who it comes from and how it's said, it can take on an offensive tone. Everyone is different, but I honestly prefer not to be called a woman over girl.

You can think of yourself any way that makes you feel comfortable.  Beware though.  Refer to a woman as a girl in the workplace and some Baby Boomer or even older GenXer might bite your head off.  It triggers memories of years of systemic sexual harassment and and discrimination in the workplace.  And we ain't having that again.  Even if the deblorables manage to get Donald Trump into office, someone who would like to do away with all manner of anti-discrimination laws.

[Arix]

6 hours ago, alba said:

 

This actually brings up an interesting point. A couple of people have brought up the feeling that "woman" is formal, but for men there are informal alternatives that don't refer to children: guy, bloke, lad, etc. I can't think of a single equivalent term for a woman.

 

Gals, dudettes, lasses? I use gals a fair bit.

[JMO]

14 hours ago, season of life said:

I call the Duggar daughters and Bates daughters "girls" because they are so dependent upon men and seem very young, plus sheltered. Women and men are functioning adults who can take care of theirselves, so when I think of them I simply see them as "girls".

This is how I feel about the married Duggar/Bates children.  That, and because they have been on TV since they were girls it's a hard habit to break.  I also felt personally that I didn't feel uncomfortable describing a woman my age as a girl until a few years ago.   And I was a teen when the eldest kids were born. 

[donnal]

I go with girl/boy in a casual conversation and woman/man in a more formal or professional setting.

"Some of the girls and I are doing happy hour later" vs "I have a meeting with the woman from Deloitte at 2PM."

Sometimes I'll use lady or gentleman, but I think that's generally reserved for people significantly older than me.

[Illmarryyoujana]

1 hour ago, JenniferJuniper said:

You can think of yourself any way that makes you feel comfortable.  Beware though.  Refer to a woman as a girl in the workplace and some Baby Boomer or even older GenXer might bite your head off.  It triggers memories of years of systemic sexual harassment and and discrimination in the workplace.  And we ain't having that again.  Even if the deblorables manage to get Donald Trump into office, someone who would like to do away with all manner of anti-discrimination laws.

I rarely find myself having to use either word in the workplace, but I definitely  wouldn't refer to a baby boomer as a girl in general, out of respect. That's because I know most baby boomers and older gen Xers identify as woman/women.  I'm 27 and grew up during the girl power craze and now the girl boss craze. I'm not speaking for all millennials by any means,  but I good number of us find a great deal of power and strength behind the word girl. Of course, if someone my age doesn't want to be called a girl,   I wouldn't.  

[Bad Wolf]

I just finally finished watching the football episode. Took a while I kept falling asleep. So that's it? One football camp to mentor at risk kids (who didn't seem to be at risk). If they're not going to do this on a regular basis, then it's useless. Just like SOS ministries. One time is all they need to show their servants' hearts. The recipients aren't important.

[Analytica49]

Two things that really annoy me about "Counting On":

First, the sneaky way that TLC is gradually edging Jim-Boob and  J'Uterus back in to the show. I DON'T want to see them, and I am not remotely interested in their uneducated opinions about anything.

Second, the impression this stupid show gives that fundy life is just so much fun, full of love, romance, great relationships, happy family life, etc. That's completely misleading. Like so many others, I will only be interested in this show if it reveals the reality of fundamentalist life: the restrictions on people's behavior, the bigotry, the ignorance and false beliefs, the practical implications of having next to no education, and the sheer drudgery (presumably falling on the daughters) that's required to take care of large numbers of children.

 

[foreign fundie]

I was recently called 'quite a clever little lady' in my face by a man two years my senior. Worst, it was meant as a compliment.

[Kate11]

This is a little off topic, but kinda goes with girl/ woman. I'm a teacher and when talking about my coworkers to students I call everyone Miss Last Name, I hardly ever use Mrs. Mostly because it's harder and takes longer to say. I was just wondering what the FJ consensus was on using Miss/Mrs./ and Ms!

[JenniferJuniper]

11 hours ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I'm 27 and grew up during the girl power craze and now the girl boss craze. I'm not speaking for all millennials by any means,  but I good number of us find a great deal of power and strength behind the word girl.  

Girl power rules!  And this is so important for girls.  But most English language speakers define "girl" as a female child.    

Women aren't children any more than men are.   As they age - as we all do -  those who prefer to be called "girls" run the risk of being pushed into a lesser standing if boys become men while they remain children.

Free to be, you and me. But words can both convey and diminish our power if we let them. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

30 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Girl power rules!  And this is so important for girls.  But most English language speakers define "girl" as a female child.    

Women aren't children any more than men are.   As they age - as we all do -  those who prefer to be called "girls" run the risk of being pushed into a lesser standing if boys become men while they remain children.

Free to be, you and me. But words can both convey and diminish our power if we let them. 

Its all about intent. If words are spoken maliciously they are wrong they are insulting, degrading... like when I call my friends whores or bitches, that is fine, by if someone I don't know calls one of them a whore there will be a problem.