Fore!!! Jinger courts the Jock

[VelociRapture]

2 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I specifically learned that this was not the church's teaching in Catholic school in the early 80s. There had been a suicide and a student asked our priest in our junior high classroom. It is not something that is a recent change of doctrine. A bit of websurfing shows that the teaching that mental despair negates any sin in a suicide was published in Catholic sources as early as 1913. 

Damn! Off by three years in my guess! 

(I'm actually kind of proud of myself for guessing the clarification was made within a hundred years though.)

I'm glad to see that the Church clarified this a while ago - relatively speaking, it is a fairly recent change when the Church has been around almost 2,000 years. 

However, it seems the Clergy need to do a better job informing people what the actual teaching is. Belief in it being a mortal sin is still kind of common unfortunately, especially among those of us who attended public school. And, as I said, no one who was responsible for preparing us for Confirmation ever clarified or corrected that man's claims to us. Not sure if they knew about that clarification or if they simply didn't care or what. If one of them had taken the time to do that it could have saved me close to fifteen years of unresolved anger and depression.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

4 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I specifically learned that this was not the church's teaching in Catholic school in the early 80s. There had been a suicide and a student asked our priest in our junior high classroom. It is not something that is a recent change of doctrine. A bit of websurfing shows that the teaching that mental despair negates any sin in a suicide was published in Catholic sources as early as 1913. 

It may not have been part of Catholic doctrine but it was believed by many Catholics, my family still believes this, even the younger members, who are still hard core Catholic. About 12 yeas ago when a friend killed herself my mom said it is so sad that she will never get to see heaven.  A while later a family gathering several others stated the same thing.  I was quiet shocked.  Perhaps it is just my family and their hard core cold as ice German blood but they don't take kindly to the idea of mental illness, they think it is just made up.  Was fun to see my mom react to one of my massive anxiety attacks that landed me in the hospital. 

[louisa05]

10 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

It may not have been part of Catholic doctrine but it was believed by many Catholics, my family still believes this, even the younger members, who are still hard core Catholic. About 12 yeas ago when a friend killed herself my mom said it is so sad that she will never get to see heaven.  A while later a family gathering several others stated the same thing.  I was quiet shocked.  Perhaps it is just my family and their hard core cold as ice German blood but they don't take kindly to the idea of mental illness, they think it is just made up.  Was fun to see my mom react to one of my massive anxiety attacks that landed me in the hospital. 

And my priest hates deep fried food. With a passion. He won't touch it.  But that doesn't make it a Catholic teaching. I mention this because a non-Catholic friend of mine found out that fact about him and responded, in utmost seriousness, "so you can't have fried chicken and be Catholic?". Clearly, every priest's personal opinion is equal to official Church doctrine. Fortunately, I can't really eat deep fried food; it bothers my stomach. 

We have a problem with poor catechesis in the Church. Many people believe things that the Church does not teach or that are blatantly contrary to what the Church teaches.  What I find disturbing about that is not that it happens but that when someone shows that whatever it is is not Church teaching, there are mountains of push back--as there has been here--that if some random Catholic said it or believed it, then it absolutely must be what the Church teaches, has taught or has always believed. 

If your confirmation teacher (or any other Catholic, including priests) told you something that sounded off or incorrect or disturbed you, go investigate it. Read the actual catechism. Confirmation teachers, in 95% of parishes, are untrained, minimally screened volunteers ( background checked to ensure no criminal record or history of child abuse--but knowledge of doctrine and theology? Whatever. There's a book to teach out of); I know this. I am a confirmation teacher in my parish. 

 

[VelociRapture]

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now - it's a subject that is obviously very sensitive for many people and I do not wish to offend or upset anyone further. Plus, I just announced my pregnancy on Facebook and I kind of want to just enjoy all the well wishes.

I understand that faith is extremely important for many people - and I fully understand why people (such as @louisa05) defend their faith as they do. That said, it does not change or diminish my experience or the experiences of others in regards to this very emotional subject. I am a firm believer in the Clergy needing to do better in explaining the Church's actual position on this subject and I am grateful that they seem to be becoming more vocal in that respect.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to point out the clarification in Church teaching. 

[violynn]

On 6/29/2016 at 7:47 PM, fundiefan said:

I have a question. If you repent of your sins and they're washed away as if they never happened and you're a new person in Christ and all that - why, exactly, does anyone need to be 'saved' before they're, say, 90 or otherwise on their death bed? Why can't we all just live as we choose and do whatever we want, then repent later since none of what we've done before matters?

Matthew 25:13
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Luke 21:34
But watch yourselves, or your hearts will be weighed down by dissipation, drunkenness, and the worries of life--and that day will spring upon you suddenly like a snare.

 

Sorry I'm late with it, but the "you could die at any time" school of thought wasn't what came to mind with your question.  Knowing not the hour, however, was a biggie in our church.  Also, "always consider what you are doing and whether you want to be caught doing it when Jesus is coming for you on the cloud"  - horribly paraphrased

[Marissap]

32 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now - it's a subject that is obviously very sensitive for many people and I do not wish to offend or upset anyone further. Plus, I just announced my pregnancy on Facebook and I kind of want to just enjoy all the well wishes.

I understand that faith is extremely important for many people - and I fully understand why people (such as @louisa05) defend their faith as they do. That said, it does not change or diminish my experience or the experiences of others in regards to this very emotional subject. I am a firm believer in the Clergy needing to do better in explaining the Church's actual position on this subject and I am grateful that they seem to be becoming more vocal in that respect.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to point out the clarification in Church teaching. 

Yes let's please move back to fan fiction, Harry Potter, or anything else that isn't so disturbing and potentially hurtful to some!

 

personally I'd love some more news or courtship relevations to be announced

[EmCatlyn]

21 hours ago, Analytica49 said:

I've been doing my level best to catch up on this topic, but it is moving so fast..

Just want to comment on one aspect of Jinger's suiter.

A number of people, at least when the news first broke, were placing some faith in Jeremy's education, which would supposedly make him a better spouse, more cosmopolitan, more open to the world, maybe not as limited in his views as Jim-Boob or Bin.

I think this is a pipe dream.

I have been associated for many years with colleges and universities, and in my experience, if someone wants to remain ignorant, they can do so, despite the education they are supposedly receiving. The book, Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses, by Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa, provides evidence of just how little some students learn while at college. It is very easy to limit one's exposure to new ideas, to take courses that will not be challenging, and to hang out with people who will not undermine one's fixed ideas.

I would not be at all surprised if that is what has happened to Mr. Vuolo. He does not strike me as someone who is open to ideas that will call his fundamentalist beliefs into question.

I have to agree that going to college does not guarantee that Jinger's suitor is going to be in any way enlightened or progressive.  Like you, I have considerable experience of students who refuse to have their minds "stretched" in directions they find disturbing or unpleasant.  To pick an easy example, students with creationist views will generally go through college without allowing their minds to touch on the possibility that evolution theory may have something useful to say. 

However, even the narrowminded might learn from experiences. Jeremy or anyone who has been to college and travelled a little may have figured out  things about life and key everyday values which a Duggar might not know.  Education is always of use.

[Gillyweed]

2 hours ago, Marissap said:

Yes let's please move back to fan fiction, Harry Potter, or anything else that isn't so disturbing and potentially hurtful to some!

 

personally I'd love some more news or courtship relevations to be announced

Did anyone read the Cursed Child plot? I'm pretty sure I've read a fanfiction exactly like it before...

[theinvisiblegirl]

1 hour ago, Gillyweed said:

Did anyone read the Cursed Child plot? I'm pretty sure I've read a fanfiction exactly like it before...

I haven't heard anything about it yet. I'm waiting for my copy to arrive in the mail at the end of the month so I can be surprised.

[OrchidBlossom]

Hello all if you spoil Cursed Child for me I will hunt you down and spoil every show, book, movie, or fanfiction you love for the rest of your natural life. You've been warned.

 

@VelociRapture congratulations!

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now - it's a subject that is obviously very sensitive for many people and I do not wish to offend or upset anyone further. Plus, I just announced my pregnancy on Facebook and I kind of want to just enjoy all the well wishes.

I understand that faith is extremely important for many people - and I fully understand why people (such as @louisa05) defend their faith as they do. That said, it does not change or diminish my experience or the experiences of others in regards to this very emotional subject. I am a firm believer in the Clergy needing to do better in explaining the Church's actual position on this subject and I am grateful that they seem to be becoming more vocal in that respect.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to point out the clarification in Church teaching. 

Congratulations, VelociRapture,  I've read in other threads that you have had fertility issues, and I hope you have a wonderful and easy pregnancy. 

Louisa05, as for the catholic church, being raised in it and the way my family teaches/believes is apparently very wrong,what my family believes/does has turned me completely off the Catholic church, I haven't attended one willingly in 30 years so I do admit I'm no expert which was why I try to preface my thoughts with the, my family does it this way, not sure if it is the norm.

[Analytica49]

Apologies for what may be a change of specific topic, but I want to say something about the photos of Jinger and JV side-hugging.

I've never understood the bizarre distinction the Duggars and their ilk make between side hugs and holding hands. Side hugs not allowed until after courtship starts, but are permissible even before engagement takes place. But holding hands is only a perk of being engaged.

Why??

In the photo of Jinger and JV side-hugging, it sure does look to me as if a LOT of their bodies are in contact. More power to them! I think physical closeness is extremely important to any romantic relationship.

But surely that kind of side-hugging is potentially way more defrauding than merely holding hands, where much less of the two people's bodies are in contact.

(Yes, I remember Anna and Smuggar's hand sex. But imo, holding hands BECAME hand sex for them just because it was defined as something V E R Y special that you could only do once you were engaged. In other words, whatever is forbidden acquires much more sexual power.)

But Jin and Jer's side-hugs still look pretty darn cozy to me.

[The limit does not exist]

2 hours ago, Analytica49 said:

Apologies for what may be a change of specific topic, but I want to say something about the photos of Jinger and JV side-hugging.

I've never understood the bizarre distinction the Duggars and their ilk make between side hugs and holding hands. Side hugs not allowed until after courtship starts, but are permissible even before engagement takes place. But holding hands is only a perk of being engaged.

Why??

In the photo of Jinger and JV side-hugging, it sure does look to me as if a LOT of their bodies are in contact. More power to them! I think physical closeness is extremely important to any romantic relationship.

But surely that kind of side-hugging is potentially way more defrauding than merely holding hands, where much less of the two people's bodies are in contact.

(Yes, I remember Anna and Smuggar's hand sex. But imo, holding hands BECAME hand sex for them just because it was defined as something V E R Y special that you could only do once you were engaged. In other words, whatever is forbidden acquires much more sexual power.)

But Jin and Jer's side-hugs still look pretty darn cozy to me.

I agree it's weird but I remember J'chelle talking about how quick side hugs are only for hello and goodbye. Holding hands is prolonged physical contact so it isn't allowed.

Not sure how side hugging for pictures fits in but since the kidults make their own rules about courting () maybe JinJer decided it's okay...

 

[raisingthebarre94]

Hello ! Whoever introduced My Immortal to me, thank you!!!!

Also, I've never known where to post this specific story, but it's about heart pieces so I thought a courting post would be appropriate. My youth pastor, when I was in middle school, did a series on relationships. He used a candy bar, and said that every time you give a piece of your candy bar away, you have less for your future spouse. I'm pretty sure this meant sex, but whatever. He ended the talk with "when I married, I wanna be able to say 'baby I saved my king size snickers all for you!'" The parents in the room were horrified and he didn't even know he made a dick joke.

Anyways. Jinger. Courting. Woo.

[CoveredInBees]

So.......... wandering back to the thread after a week or so off 'Brexit' hell.........

Apart from them announcing it and us dissecting his history etc, has anything else actually happened?

P.S. Don't spoil Cursed Child for me either  

[trisprefect]

13 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Hello all if you spoil Cursed Child for me I will hunt you down and spoil every show, book, movie, or fanfiction you love for the rest of your natural life. You've been warned.

 

@VelociRapture congratulations!

Saw it in London, it's super weird. Voldemort somehow manages to come back and Harry's son has to resurrect zombie Dumbledore to fight him.

(Just kidding. I have not seen it.)

[Exjw2015deed]

Goodness there are so many threads on this I'm trying to catch up. I just read his police report from intouch. It's funny how often when Duggar girls list characteristics for a potential husband they all say:

1. Godly man or man that loves the lord.

2. Someone who is slow to anger.

Reading that report he seemed quick to anger. I always say alcohol projects out our true selves and deepest insecurities. If I ever saw a man get that angry, even if he found Jesus and sworn to never hit or get belligerent again, I still wouldn't trust him. Especially, if they have 11 kids, which has to be insanely stressful and tiring. I would like to see how he is under pressure, or records of him playing soccer and losing his temper. 

[Bad Wolf]

@velocirapture. You told us first. I'm honored.

[Analytica49]

I'm wasting waaay too much time thinking about Jinger's situation. So here's another thing that bothers me.

First, some background: I was raised as a devout Christian, but am now a non-believer. From this perspective, I think about JV being a pastor and I just wonder what exactly qualifies him to play that role.

Maybe I missed something, but nothing I've read so far indicates that he has had formal training and education to be a religious leader. I certainly don't think his athletic experience, or his non-theological college education, qualify him.

So, if I were, for example, a middle-aged man, or an elderly woman, in his congregation, why would I trust him as a religious leader? What exactly does HE have to teach someone with twenty, thirty, or forty years' more life experience than he has? What makes him a religious expert? Why would anyone consider him to be especially godly?

And then that makes me wonder: What kind of towering conceit would a person have to have, to set himself up as a religious authority with so little background preparation?

 

[theinvisiblegirl]

15 hours ago, Analytica49 said:

Apologies for what may be a change of specific topic, but I want to say something about the photos of Jinger and JV side-hugging.

I've never understood the bizarre distinction the Duggars and their ilk make between side hugs and holding hands. Side hugs not allowed until after courtship starts, but are permissible even before engagement takes place. But holding hands is only a perk of being engaged.

Why??

In the photo of Jinger and JV side-hugging, it sure does look to me as if a LOT of their bodies are in contact. More power to them! I think physical closeness is extremely important to any romantic relationship.

But surely that kind of side-hugging is potentially way more defrauding than merely holding hands, where much less of the two people's bodies are in contact.

(Yes, I remember Anna and Smuggar's hand sex. But imo, holding hands BECAME hand sex for them just because it was defined as something V E R Y special that you could only do once you were engaged. In other words, whatever is forbidden acquires much more sexual power.)

But Jin and Jer's side-hugs still look pretty darn cozy to me.

To the first bold: Well, since they all seem to take a lot of pictures... Perks of Being a Side Hugger?

To the second bold: Perhaps it got to be that way because, for so long, Josh couldn't express what was obviously some form of sexual... frustration, for lack of a better word? And that was do to how forbidden anything regarding sex was had to be in that family. Granted, when he DID express this, he did the absolute worst thing a person could do, and I 100% don't condone what he did to his sisters and the fifth victim and find anyone saying "But he was just a kid who made mistakes!" to be off their rocker. With Anna, he might have just been so excited to finally be able to touch someone without getting into trouble (and without committing a crime) that the hand holding turned into hand sex.

[Bushes of Love]

6 hours ago, trisprefect said:

Saw it in London, it's super weird. Voldemort somehow manages to come back and Harry's son has to resurrect zombie Dumbledore to fight him.

(Just kidding. I have not seen it.)

That'd be an awesome fanfic.

I read a summary of HP & the cursed child and I wasn't impressed. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone but I feel there are plot holes that you could drive an oil tanker through.

[VelociRapture]

@Bad WolfI mentioned it here early on because I got so much support and love after my miscarriage in February. I figured, if it happened again, I would need to kind of support. Really relieved that didn't happen and it's all been happy news to share with you all! 

[trisprefect]

6 hours ago, Bushes of Love said:

That'd be an awesome fanfic.

I read a summary of HP & the cursed child and I wasn't impressed. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone but I feel there are plot holes that you could drive an oil tanker through.

I have read all the spoilers and my first thought was, "Wow, that sounds like a crackfic I would have written when I was in eighth grade." But in all seriousness, it sort of rubs me the wrong way that she chose theater as the format for this. One of the special things about Harry Potter is that the material was released in a way that we all got access to it at pretty much the same time, so we all got to experience it together. Having it shown at a theater in London limits the audience so only a tiny portion of the HP fandom gets to actually experience it the way it was intended. I think it would have been much better to have a limited run and then release it to movie theaters the way that National Theatre Live does with a lot of their productions.

[Fundie Bunny]

I thought it was going to be something cool, but after reading the spoilers I feel lile cursed child is a sad money grab. Didn't she have enough millions already?

[anotherone]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:50 AM, theinvisiblegirl said:

To the first bold: Well, since they all seem to take a lot of pictures... Perks of Being a Side Hugger?

To the second bold: Perhaps it got to be that way because, for so long, Josh couldn't express what was obviously some form of sexual... frustration, for lack of a better word? And that was do to how forbidden anything regarding sex was had to be in that family. Granted, when he DID express this, he did the absolute worst thing a person could do, and I 100% don't condone what he did to his sisters and the fifth victim and find anyone saying "But he was just a kid who made mistakes!" to be off their rocker. With Anna, he might have just been so excited to finally be able to touch someone without getting into trouble (and without committing a crime) that the hand holding turned into hand sex.

But yet, in his mind (and likely his parents' minds), having sexual contact  with Anna was worse than having sexual contact with his sisters.  I still can't wrap my mind around that.