Fore!!! Jinger courts the Jock

[eveandadam]

1 hour ago, JaChelle Sugar said:

<--wants Hermione Grainger and a rocketship

My favorite kind of fanfic is those kinkmeme prompt posts. No need to wade through actually reading shitty fic's, just the overview of a story idea. Sometimes actual stories that get my interest. Inception has over twenty 50ish-page threads of prompts, plus over 100 pages of links to filled prompts.Arthur/Eames OTP 4 lyfe!

*eta: how do I alter the size of my typeface?

I love your picture :-). Is it from the Harry Potter Musical? Draco Malfoy has to be my favorite fictional character of all time.

[Bad Wolf]

@tinybubbles that's just how I feel. You'd like our church.

[Analytica49]

I've been doing my level best to catch up on this topic, but it is moving so fast..

Just want to comment on one aspect of Jinger's suiter.

A number of people, at least when the news first broke, were placing some faith in Jeremy's education, which would supposedly make him a better spouse, more cosmopolitan, more open to the world, maybe not as limited in his views as Jim-Boob or Bin.

I think this is a pipe dream.

I have been associated for many years with colleges and universities, and in my experience, if someone wants to remain ignorant, they can do so, despite the education they are supposedly receiving. The book, Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses, by Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa, provides evidence of just how little some students learn while at college. It is very easy to limit one's exposure to new ideas, to take courses that will not be challenging, and to hang out with people who will not undermine one's fixed ideas.

I would not be at all surprised if that is what has happened to Mr. Vuolo. He does not strike me as someone who is open to ideas that will call his fundamentalist beliefs into question.

[twinmama]

20 hours ago, season of life said:

I once read on a website, someone had commented that his/her brother-in-law openly and proudly said that if he knew God wasn't real, he'd rape women.

Here's to hoping these types of people drop off the face of the Earth.

Well holy shitballs. Here's to hoping that nasty piece of work never loses his faith.

[patsymae]

18 minutes ago, twinmama said:

Well holy shitballs. Here's to hoping that nasty piece of work never loses his faith.

Well, it wasn't God, but when Joshgate first happened Ben's father posted that EVERYBODY would of course molest their sisters if it wasn't illegal.

These people apparently do believe that not only the ungodly among us, but they themselves, are nasty pieces of crap who have no moral compass and are only restrained from their depravity for fear of earthy or other-worldly punishment.

If it weren't for the influence they exert on other people's lives I'd feel sorry for the miserable fucks who live in this head.

[twinmama]

2 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Well, it wasn't God, but when Joshgate first happened Ben's father posted that EVERYBODY would of course molest their sisters if it wasn't illegal.

My god. I understand things like stealing or speeding if they weren't illegal and there were no consequences, but I've honestly never wanted to molest anyone, murder anyone (I mean, who hasn't felt murderous rage once or twice? but I've never legit wanted to kill someone! lol). 

Hard to wrap my head around, I wonder if they really think all atheists are rapists and murderers. I mean, I don't believe in god but I'm a good person. I haven't done anything illegal other than a few parking tickets (usually a stupid accident). If they think they don't rape and murder solely because God, why do they think people like me don't do it???

[patsymae]

16 minutes ago, twinmama said:

My god. I understand things like stealing or speeding if they weren't illegal and there were no consequences, but I've honestly never wanted to molest anyone, murder anyone (I mean, who hasn't felt murderous rage once or twice? but I've never legit wanted to kill someone! lol). 

Hard to wrap my head around, I wonder if they really think all atheists are rapists and murderers. I mean, I don't believe in god but I'm a good person. I haven't done anything illegal other than a few parking tickets (usually a stupid accident). If they think they don't rape and murder solely because God, why do they think people like me don't do it???

they think you will do it if you had the chance. That's why they have to introduce you to Jesus.

[sophie10130]

When I was really depressed in high school and didn't have the tools to cope yet, I often thought about suicide, but I never carried it out because I was taught that I'd go to hell. In that case, I'm cool with it.

HOWEVER

My boyfriend later said when I asked him why he never brought up how depressed I was, "I knew you would never kill yourself because you didn't want to go to hell." And yeah, I was on the same page and that was true, but what if it wasn't???

 

These people HAVE to paint themselves as would-be heathens without God.That God is their tether to morality, because it makes their testimony stronger. It makes Christianity seem like a life or death situation and it also makes people who aren't Christians one step away from being awful felons.

[twinmama]

7 minutes ago, patsymae said:

they think you will do it if you had the chance. That's why they have to introduce you to Jesus.

So ridiculous, who doesn't have the chance to murder someone? This is America! I can get weapons at Walmart! They're lucky I have sanity and don't need Jesus to stop me.

[VelociRapture]

@sophie10130The whole topic of suicide and Catholicism pisses me off beyond belief. I was born and raised Catholic - the first time I heard you'd go to Hell for committing suicide was during the 8th grade retreat before Confirmation. They brought in a born-again speaker who told us that. 

Asshole didn't bother asking if any of us had a loved one who committed suicide. Hello traumatized 13 year-old me finding out my beloved Aunt was apparently burning in eternal torment forever.

Yeah. Needless to say, I'm not Catholic anymore. I refuse to follow a faith system that teaches someone would be punished forever for not being able to fight their depression any longer.

I'm really glad you're doing ok now. I really wish someone had thought to reach out to you though - it could have lessened your sense of isolation and helped ease your struggle a bit.

[louisa05]

23 hours ago, snarkysuki1724 said:

I consider myself a survivor of 12 years of Catholic school.  The worst was the all-girls high school. The nuns and lay teachers were cruel.  I am still, all these years later, happy that I made it through and relieved that it's over.  I refused to attend my graduation, and instead went and picked up my diploma at the school office after graduation. It was THAT bad. I will still occasionally have a bad dream that I'm back at that school. 

  I'm so happy that my kids attended great public schools with other kids of all different faiths, ethnicities, gender identities, etc., and that for the most part they have had teachers that treated them with kindness. 

My elementary school was actually an ok experience compared to high school, and the nuns were kind to me, mostly because I was a girl, and quiet and well-behaved.  The boys got beat up by the nuns on a daily basis. 

Catholic school saved my life. 

Prior to going in 7th grade, I was bullied relentlessly in public school by students, a couple of teachers and the school secretary. 

I went to a public school with literally zero students that were not white and Protestant. 

At Catholic school, I had classmates who were Latino, Vietnamese (10% of my graduating class--some of whom were "boat people"),  and African-American. I had classmates who were exchange students from Europe and Latin America and teachers from Mexico and Germany. 

And I had top notch academics and a supportive environment free from bullying and where every student was treated equally by teachers and staff. 

Don't paint anything with one brush. 

 

[sophie10130]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@sophie10130The whole topic of suicide and Catholicism pisses me off beyond belief. I was born and raised Catholic - the first time I heard you'd go to Hell for committing suicide was during the 8th grade retreat before Confirmation. They brought in a born-again speaker who told us that. 

Asshole didn't bother asking if any of us had a loved one who committed suicide. Hello traumatized 13 year-old me finding out my beloved Aunt was apparently burning in eternal torment forever.

Yeah. Needless to say, I'm not Catholic anymore. I refuse to follow a faith system that teaches someone would be punished forever for not being able to fight their depression any longer.

I'm really glad you're doing ok now. I really wish someone had thought to reach out to you though - it could have lessened your sense of isolation and helped ease your struggle a bit.

Thanks @VelociRapture I'm doing a lot better! High school was hard and none of my friends understood. They just thought I was a brooding anti-social teenager. But it's much better now.

I learned that at a young age, I think around 5th or 6th grade when we watched Jesus Christ Superstar. My PSR teacher paused the tape when Judas committed suicide to tell us that Judas is the only person who has committed suicide who is in heaven because reasons I can't remember.

Fast forward to my freshman year of college. In a very devastating fashion, my uncle kills himself. He leaves behind a wife, a daughter in college, a son who just completed 8th grade at Catholic school and is trying to get enough money to go to Catholic high school, and an extremely high needs daughter who is about to age out of the school system.

Have you ever been to a Catholic funeral for someone who committed suicide? If you have the option to skip it, SKIP IT. It was so incredibly awkward because the priest made it a point to not say anything along the lines of "He's in a better place." It was so awkward and heartless and tactless. Just disgusting. There was no solace in that funeral. No comfort. To me, it was a betrayal. My uncle went to Catholic school and church his entire life just like his parents and he sent his kids there too and the priest couldn't so much as comfort us that at the end of it all he was chillin' in heaven.

 

A sort of funny story out of all that. After the funeral the nuns made us all a meal and we were hanging out in the church basement and I was bitching up a gigantic storm about the priest and his awful service to my brother in hushed tones. My mom has a bad ear, but she was trying to listen and she jumps in in a very defensive and high pitched voice, "Whaa? I thought the lasagna was great!" We were just like no Mom, the service, not the lasagna. 

[EmCatlyn]

13 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Well, If he was a catholic, he'd could do it. Every sin is forgiven by confession and prayers. Or at least is what I was told in my religion classes at school.

 

The assumption is that you would only be confessing sins that you now repent.  Without repentance, there is no absolution.  Part of repentance is resolving not to sin again.  If you go to confession to get forgiven and yet aren't truly repentant, then your confession is a fraud and you are not really going to be forgiven no matter how many prayers.

 

[VelociRapture]

@sophie10130I don't think I attended my Aunt's funeral. I was only 4 when she died, so I don't remember much. I know my younger brother and I didn't attend the Wake - we stayed at my grandparents' house with my mom's High School friend. I got a star sticker for using the bathroom like a big kid - my brother wouldn't go so he didn't get one. 

In all honesty, I don't think her funeral would have been as bad as your Uncle's. My Great-Uncke was a Catholic Proest and he adored his neves and nephews. He also had a healthy disrespect for some of the rules - for instance, he performed the normal marriage ceremony for my parents' wedding even though they already had a civil ceremony eight months earlier. I'm pretty sure he was involved with her service and, for that reason, I have a tough time thinking it would have been an awkward experience. He wouldn't have been ok with putting his sister or her family through that.

[Bad Wolf]

I was at a suicide prevention workshop where they said the RC church no longer sees suicide as a sin but as a mental illness. Not being RC I cannot vouch for the authenticity of this.

[jozina]

Kind of, yeah.  From the Catechism:

Quote

 

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

For a sin to be mortal or one that could cost you salvation you need to fully consent to it or have full responsibility for it. If you haven't got the full responsibility it isn't a mortal sin so they're pretty much saying it isn't for most people.

Not a Catholic scholar or anything but that's my understanding.

Velocirapture and Sophie I'm so sorry, suicide is such an awful way to lose someone. Sophie that service must have been very, very difficult and made it all so much worse.

[nastyhobbitses]

9 hours ago, patsymae said:

Well, it wasn't God, but when Joshgate first happened Ben's father posted that EVERYBODY would of course molest their sisters if it wasn't illegal.

These people apparently do believe that not only the ungodly among us, but they themselves, are nasty pieces of crap who have no moral compass and are only restrained from their depravity for fear of earthy or other-worldly punishment.

If it weren't for the influence they exert on other people's lives I'd feel sorry for the miserable fucks who live in this head.

This whole thing is interesting to me because my Master's research has a lot to do with psychological theories of motivation. In particular motivation in language learning, but there's one researcher who developed the theory of the Ideal Self and the Ought-To Self in motivation. The Ideal Self is who you aspire to be. You want to be that person because they're successful, smart, cultured, morally upright, socially responsible, et cetera. You strive to be that person for the sake of self-cultivation and improvement. The Ought-To Self is who you try to be because of external factors, namely pressures from society. You want to be that person because they're who your colleagues, friends, family, religious community, et cetera want you to be, and you will reap material or social rewards from being that person. Sometimes those selves can be the same, but sometimes they are not.

With a lot of fundies, I feel like they're motivated not to be good per se, but not-bad, because they think that God wants them to be and they'll be rewarded for it/punished for not being not-bad, not because being a good/not-bad/moral person is a reward unto itself. And why they act like this makes them morally superior is beyond me; I don't think a person is good or morally upright if the only thing stopping them from raping and murdering and stealing is the thought that they'll burn in hell if they do those things. And it sure explains a lot about fundie childrearing -- don't teach kids to be respectful, polite, and moral because it's part of being a good citizen who contributes to social harmony and has integrity and personal accountability; teach them to be meek and submissive and "well-behaved" because someone is always watching, and they'll be beaten if they don't comply.

[eveandadam]

As for Vuolo having been arrested:

Of course, it's not a big deal because he is a christian now and a male. so he is not considered damaged goods. It's like Josh. You are/become a christian, confess, are forgiven and go on with your life because you are saved.

Really, I do believe that JB is capable of letting his daughter marry a murderer as long as he is saved and confesses. With males is doesn't matter at all.

But imagine JB letting one of his sons marry a girl who isn't a virgin anymore. That son would be shunned from the family or the marriage would never happen. Or one of his kids turning out gay. All this would be worse than a convicted abuser of some sort, e.g., it's so f****** up.

The whole thing is so sexist it drives me crazy.

 

 

[VelociRapture]

@jozinaThank you so much for your sympathy and for letting us know about the apparent change in stance by the Church. It doesn't erase what they once told people, but it is absolutely a step in the right direction. And I think it could bring a great deal of comfort to many families dealing with this sort of loss - which is really what any religion should be focused on rather than shaming people for something out of their control.

[snarkysuki1724]

13 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Catholic school saved my life. 

Prior to going in 7th grade, I was bullied relentlessly in public school by students, a couple of teachers and the school secretary. 

I went to a public school with literally zero students that were not white and Protestant. 

At Catholic school, I had classmates who were Latino, Vietnamese (10% of my graduating class--some of whom were "boat people"),  and African-American. I had classmates who were exchange students from Europe and Latin America and teachers from Mexico and Germany. 

And I had top notch academics and a supportive environment free from bullying and where every student was treated equally by teachers and staff. 

Don't paint anything with one brush. 

 

Absolutely.  My experience was unique to me, and this was many years ago.  I don't think that I stated anywhere in my post that I believe that every Catholic school is bad. 

[louisa05]

14 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@sophie10130The whole topic of suicide and Catholicism pisses me off beyond belief. I was born and raised Catholic - the first time I heard you'd go to Hell for committing suicide was during the 8th grade retreat before Confirmation. They brought in a born-again speaker who told us that. 

Asshole didn't bother asking if any of us had a loved one who committed suicide. Hello traumatized 13 year-old me finding out my beloved Aunt was apparently burning in eternal torment forever.

Yeah. Needless to say, I'm not Catholic anymore. I refuse to follow a faith system that teaches someone would be punished forever for not being able to fight their depression any longer.

I'm really glad you're doing ok now. I really wish someone had thought to reach out to you though - it could have lessened your sense of isolation and helped ease your struggle a bit.

That is not what the church teaches. 

From the Catechism: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide" (#2282). 

The longer interpretation of this is that these issues (which usually are present in the case of suicide) eliminates culpability which means that the person is not sinning. These circumstances mean the person cannot make a rational decision which is required to sin. The Church does not believe we can accidentally sin--you have to know that an action is sinful and do it anyway with a clear mind and no one forcing you. The clear mind part is rarely going to be present in the case of suicide. 

I'm sorry that someone misinterpreted the church's teaching and it was hurtful to you. 

[Kaylo]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@jozinaThank you so much for your sympathy and for letting us know about the apparent change in stance by the Church. It doesn't erase what they once told people, but it is absolutely a step in the right direction. And I think it could bring a great deal of comfort to many families dealing with this sort of loss - which is really what any religion should be focused on rather than shaming people for something out of their control.

My Baptist grandma is the one who told me that people who commit suicide went to hell.  I've been Catholic my whole life - went to catholic school, taught in Catholic schools, was trained as a catechist and taught religion, and never was I told this in the Catholic Church. 

[JaChelle Sugar]

20 hours ago, eveandadam said:

I love your picture :-). Is it from the Harry Potter Musical? Draco Malfoy has to be my favorite fictional character of all time.

Yep, it's Draco from AVPM to be specific.

[VelociRapture]

6 minutes ago, Kaylo said:

My Baptist grandma is the one who told me that people who commit suicide went to hell.  I've been Catholic my whole life - went to catholic school, taught in Catholic schools, was trained as a catechist and taught religion, and never was I told this in the Catholic Church. 

I'm sure you know more about this than I do, but traditionally speaking the Catholic Church considered suicide to be a mortal sin - this is why many families would lie or conceal a suicide because the Church would not provide a proper burial. It's only been recently that the Church has reexamined their position on it and realized that suicide as the result of mental disease should not be considered a mortal sin because the person suffering does not have complete control over their actions.

I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with the specific Priest or clergy member you have contact with. As another poster also mentioned, her experience was vastly different than your own seems to have been. And, as I also mentioned, I highly doubt my Great-Uncle would have been ok giving a funeral service claiming his beloved niece (or anyone - he was a very compassionate man) was doomed forever. 

@louisa05Another poster also mentioned that the Church has clarified this recently. My experience occurred maybe fifteen or sixteen years ago - so it's entirely possible the Church clarified things since then or the clarification was so recent that not everyone was up to date with the teaching. Regardless, the experience left such a bad taste in my mouth that I won't be returning to Catholicism ever - the adults responsible for teaching us did nothing to intervene nor did they correct him. That's enough to make me unable to return (though there are other reasons.)

I did find this article which helps explain the traditional thinking a bit and why the Church evolved their position. I'm not clear when this clarification was made exactly, but I'm guessing it's sometime in the last 100 years when mental illness first really became accepted as a genuine medical condition:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-sin-of-suicide.html

[louisa05]

23 minutes ago, Kaylo said:

My Baptist grandma is the one who told me that people who commit suicide went to hell.  I've been Catholic my whole life - went to catholic school, taught in Catholic schools, was trained as a catechist and taught religion, and never was I told this in the Catholic Church. 

I specifically learned that this was not the church's teaching in Catholic school in the early 80s. There had been a suicide and a student asked our priest in our junior high classroom. It is not something that is a recent change of doctrine. A bit of websurfing shows that the teaching that mental despair negates any sin in a suicide was published in Catholic sources as early as 1913. 

Please note this post @VelociRapture--this teaching is not new by any means. And the Church has always taught that mortal sin requires full knowledge and understanding on the part of the person-- which suicidal depression and mental illness removes.