Counting On - Part 9: Even the Flashbacks Have Flashbacks

[lascuba]

Thanks, @imokit. The criticism over a post-pph recommended by f'ing doctors blood transfusion is driving me nuts. This is not Grey's Anatomy...no emergency took place in that hospital that resulted in a death because vain bitch Jessa selfishly took a unit of blood for herself. 

On a lighter note, I once stupidly forgot the no alcohol after donating rule and had a glass of wine with dinner. I ended up higher than when I took narcotic pain meds after wisdom tooth surgery. 

[nst]

the only thing I can contribute about blood is I use to be a volunteer at Canadian Blood Services and after people gave blood if they bled out their arm I would call out 9.  That and the oreo cookies were amazing.  Did that for 5 years ever Saturday afternoon. 

[calimojo]

Sorry, but I have to weigh in on the Blood thing.  If Jessa was given an option between more conservative treatment with Iron supplements or Blood, right there that tells me that her blood loss was not in a "crisis" situation.

 

If you have blood loss and your are offered a transfusion or Iron Pills, then your blood loss was  enough to make you anemic, and tired, but clearly it was not serious enough to be considered a life or death.  In the past few years, much has changed in the management of replacing blood loss.  It used to be pretty routine, but not anymore.  Now most hospitals have committees that review blood utilization.  Most hospitals have strict rules about blood administration protocols.  In addition to acquisition of antibodies from blood that could cause problems for some later in life,  blood is a precious commodity and should only be used when it is really necessary. 

Now,  in Jessa's situation, I am not judging her for getting blood.  It is obvious that it was offered more out of comfort rather than out of urgent need or they would not have offered her a choice of iron pills. But it is also quite likely that her blood tests indicated a sufficient drop in her Hemoglobin and Hematocrit so as to justify blood use. 

 

If it were me,  I would have opted to not get blood, but I had a great support system in place and would have been able to rest well and eat well.  If I were a single mom without access to good iron rich foods, A blood transfusion is a better option.

 

Perhaps the Hospital staff know from the show that Jessa eats only yogurt and tater tot casserole, so they thought getting some blood was a better option. 

[nst]

pickles says Josh and the Duggar family and the Seewalds(with pics) are at Jonathan H's graduation 

what is sick is that he looks so happy 

 

[JMO]

Blood transfusions are not offered lightly and I have known of women who refused them after childbirth for a variety of reasons when they should have taken them. They may have told her she needed it, she balked, and then they reluctantly offered her the iron supplementation option but convinced her that the transfusion was the right thing to do. Women can easily lose a lot of blood quickly in childbirth.  If Jana and Michelle were freaked out by the amount then I doubt it was a small amount.  And I don't find Jessa the most reliable source for what the actual conversation was. 

[Scottie]

15 hours ago, anotherone said:

Its not the fact that she did it, its the apparent flippant attitude about it. She did not say it was lifesaving or medically necessary, she said it like, oh eat more vegetables, I'll go w the transfusion instead. It wasn't even, oh i can't afford to be tired with a newborn it seemed - just by the way she said it, just in my opinion -  that it was a choice of convenience. Plus there was resistance to donating in an earlier show, but no problem taking someone elses donations.

I don't disagree with your post, however I would like to comment on bolded. While I think donating blood is a very honourable thing to do, and more people should donate (the Duggars included), I firmly believe it should be a decision people make themselves.  

If I recall correctly this would have been an episode shortly after Josie's birth where JB decided to make the older girls donate blood. I can understand the girls resistance to donating in this situation, JB gathered them around in the morning and told them the would be giving blood that day, the girls had little to no agency in that decision. Also, if memory serves, it was just the older girls with JB none of the eligible boys were told they would be donating. I empathize with the all of the girls hesitation in that episode, donating blood should have been a discussion within the family and each individual should have been able to make their own choice. I think that there would have been less resistance would have been perceived if the girls were able to come to that decision of their own accord. 

[calimojo]

Yes,  you are right @nst,  JB sort of tricked them, and Jill in particular was really genuinely afraid.  I always thought it was odd that the big strong boys didn't have to do it.  At that time Josh, JD and Joe would have been old enough. 

 

 

3 hours ago, nst said:

pickles says Josh and the Duggar family and the Seewalds(with pics) are at Jonathan H's graduation 

what is sick is that he looks so happy 

 

He does look pretty happy and his weight loss has improved his looks.  I have no doubt that the Duggars are bringing him out to get some photos out there circulating.  I think they want to prove that he is cured and I think they will eventually have him spreading his message about walking through whatever soon. 

[2manyKidzzz]

@calimojo   Do you think he will tell us what he walked through?!?!?!?!? I imagine he really had to purchase extra pairs of shoes. 

[MarblesMom]

4 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I imagine he really had to purchase extra pairs of shoes.

Hip waders.   Or a full dive suit.

[Bad Wolf]

The first time I tried to donate blood inthis country, I was turned down because I was 18 and didn't have a notarized permission slip from my parents (who werre in the UK). Later I was able to donate by proving I was independent. I could pump out a pint in about 6.5 minutes, grab my juice and cookies and be in my way feeling great. As I got older, my blood got too comfortable in my body and refused to come out in a timely fashion. Now, I'm too old, so thank you to all you selfless donors.

59 minutes ago, Scottie said:

I don't disagree with your post, however I would like to comment on bolded. While I think donating blood is a very honourable thing to do, and more people should donate (the Duggars included), I firmly believe it should be a decision people make themselves.  

If I recall correctly this would have been an episode shortly after Josie's birth where JB decided to make the older girls donate blood. I can understand the girls resistance to donating in this situation, JB gathered them around in the morning and told them the would be giving blood that day, the girls had little to no agency in that decision. Also, if memory serves, it was just the older girls with JB none of the eligible boys were told they would be donating. I empathize with the all of the girls hesitation in that episode, donating blood should have been a discussion within the family and each individual should have been able to make their own choice. I think that there would have been less resistance would have been perceived if the girls were able to come to that decision of their own accord. 

I seem to remember he siad it was a surprise for them, fooling them into thinking it was something fun before he told them what it was he expected them to do.

[Scottie]

@Bad Wolf, that's pretty much what I recall as well. I think the girls weren't really given much of a choice in the matter. 

 

[lascuba]

7 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

 

I seem to remember he siad it was a surprise for them, fooling them into thinking it was something fun before he told them what it was he expected them to do.

God, I hate JB so much. What a shitty thing to do.

[anotherone]

7 hours ago, Scottie said:

@Bad Wolf, that's pretty much what I recall as well. I think the girls weren't really given much of a choice in the matter. 

 

OK, I never watched the show that carefully back then, it was just a vague memory of resistance. 

I just wish they'd have a bit more appreciation for medical care though after all they've been through.  I don't pay insurance - but I'll go to the emergency room.  I don't want my daughters to be doctors - but I'll only go to a woman doctor.  Let others do the dirty work, but I'll take advantage of the system.

[nastyhobbitses]

13 hours ago, lascuba said:

Thanks, @imokit. The criticism over a post-pph recommended by f'ing doctors blood transfusion is driving me nuts. This is not Grey's Anatomy...no emergency took place in that hospital that resulted in a death because vain bitch Jessa selfishly took a unit of blood for herself. 

On a lighter note, I once stupidly forgot the no alcohol after donating rule and had a glass of wine with dinner. I ended up higher than when I took narcotic pain meds after wisdom tooth surgery. 

I learned a valuable life lesson about drug interactions and keeping track of what drugs you're taking the day I went to a Mexican restaurant and ordered a margarita with my dinner a short time after I had popped a Benadryl to relieve some allergy symptoms (and thought so little of it that "I just took Benadryl" didn't cross my mind when I ordered my drink). It wasn't quite Leo in that quaaludes scene in Wolf of Wall Street, but trying to eat a burrito under the influence of antihistamines and tequila is quite the experience. One I do not recommend.

[just...sare]

12 hours ago, calimojo said:

[snip]

 I think they want to prove that he is cured and I think they will eventually have him spreading his message about walking through whatever soon. 

This made me laugh twice. First in the context of "walking through whatever" as a post title count - @happy atheist - and then in the context that since they don't know how to use "when", they may not know how to use "what", either. "Whenever we were walking through whatever we walked through".... SOTDRT at its finest.

[SassyPants]

On May 9, 2016 at 9:00 AM, 2manyKidzzz said:

Sassy, so the body of the recipient stops making its own new blood cells temporarily or permanently? Your posts are always good, thanks.  

I may have gone for the blood transfusion. Hard to know just after giving birth what decision one would make. 

It's a temporary suppression.

[2manyKidzzz]

Just now, SassyPants said:

It's a temporary suppression.

Thanks for the response. I hope she doesn't try another home birth with her mother in charge for her next blessing.

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Thanks for the response. I hope she doesn't try another home birth with her mother in charge for her next blessing.

It's weird- I wrote this yesterday but I guess it never posted. It was just sitting there when I logged in today.

In the units where I worked, we would check blood, iron and something called a retic levels. The retic level tells you if the patient's body is making their own red blood cells at appropriate levels. If the retic level is normal or close to normal, a blood transfusion would be withheld, even in the presence of low red blood cell and iron levels. The last thing you want to do to a patient with low counts is to suppress the making of those components,

Blood is considered both a living tissue and a medication. It is a pretty significant treatment modality.

And for all those piling on about talking about the transfusion, I merely gave both my personal and professional opinions. And, yes, I do think it's odd that a person who obviously utilized limited medical care during her pregnancy and her delivery, choose (per Jessa) the highest level of medical treatment once confronted with an issue; prenatal care for a developing baby, not so much.

Frankly, I doubt that Jessa's claims are actually factual- Iron or a blood transfusion? If this scenario was true, as Cali mentioned, her levels were very likely not that critical.

Sort of like a bandaid or 20 stitches- It's usually one or the other and NOT either/or.

[lascuba]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

It's weird- I wrote this yesterday but I guess it never posted. It was just sitting there when I logged in today.

In the units where I worked, we would check blood, iron and something called a retic levels. The retic level tells you if the patient's body is making their own red blood cells at appropriate levels. If the retic level is normal or close to normal, a blood transfusion would be withheld, even in the presence of low red blood cell and iron levels. The last thing you want to do to a patient with low counts is to suppress the making of those components,

Blood is considered both a living tissue and a medication. It is a pretty significant treatment modality.

And for all those piling on about talking about the transfusion, I merely gave both my personal and professional opinions. And, yes, I do think it's odd that a person who obviously utilized limited medical care during her pregnancy and her delivery, choose (per Jessa) the highest level of medical treatment once confronted with an issue; prenatal care for a developing baby, not so much.

Frankly, I doubt that Jessa's claims are actually factual- Iron or a blood transfusion? If this scenario was true, as Cali mentioned, her levels were very likely not that critical.

Sort of like a bandaid or 20 stitches- It's usually one or the other and NOT either/or.

You just described a lot of American homebirthers in a nutshell, as well as people who are all about "natural" crap in general. They all know all there is to know because they have an internet connection, but as soon as the shit hits the fan and it's their life on the line they run to doctors, while later claiming that it was their prayers/juicing/acupuncture/homeopathic remedies that cured them. This is nothing new and says nothing particular about Jessa except that she's as arrogant and ignorant about science and medicine as a hell of a lot of other people of all faiths and politics. Hell, go read Gwyneth Paltrow's GOOP to get an idea of how scientific stupidity isn't limited to the fundies of the world. Or just remember how Steve Jobs died. I'm sure that you, as a nurse, came across a huge amount of patients who went for top medical care after neglecting symptoms and/or going against medical advice for months/years. People are stupid.

My point with all the blood transfusion stuff is that if (general) you are mad about a blood transfusion, it's the doctors that you need to be mad at, not Jessa. While she ultimately had to consent to it, that it was an option was never her call, and no patient should be expected to consider a hospital's resources when considering her doctor-provided options. It's such a breathtakingly petty and baseless criticism of Jessa.

[amers]

Well, you don't just immediately stop bleeding after birth. So having had significant blood loss, continued period like blood loss for up to 6 weeks, and breastfeeding, I think it is really good that she took the transfusion. She wasn't being bratty or entitled by taking it. She made a good decision, and I doubt it was just an "Oh, this or veg" situation. I think it's just the way these people gloss over stuff. Nothing seems to be a big deal to them. 

16 minutes ago, lascuba said:

You just described a lot of American homebirthers in a nutshell, as well as people who are all about "natural" crap in general. They all know all there is to know because they have an internet connection, but as soon as the shit hits the fan and it's their life on the line they run to doctors, while later claiming that it was their prayers/juicing/acupuncture/homeopathic remedies that cured them. This is nothing new and says nothing particular about Jessa except that she's as arrogant and ignorant about science and medicine as a hell of a lot of other people of all faiths and politics. Hell, go read Gwyneth Paltrow's GOOP to get an idea of how scientific stupidity isn't limited to the fundies of the world. Or just remember how Steve Jobs died. I'm sure that you, as a nurse, came across a huge amount of patients who went for top medical care after neglecting symptoms and/or going against medical advice for months/years. People are stupid.

My point with all the blood transfusion stuff is that if (general) you are mad about a blood transfusion, it's the doctors that you need to be mad at, not Jessa. While she ultimately had to consent to it, that it was an option was never her call, and no patient should be expected to consider a hospital's resources when considering her doctor-provided options. It's such a breathtakingly petty and baseless criticism of Jessa.

For as annoying as I find Jill, she did stick to her know it all guns till the very end there in her situation. She is the exception. Haha 

[MoonFace]

On 5/8/2016 at 2:05 PM, anotherone said:

Often blood is in short supply. what if there was an accident victim or emergency surgery and they ran out?

Isn't there a shelf life for the blood? 

[Buzzard]

4 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

Isn't there a shelf life for the blood? 

Yes, fresh blood can last about 40 days.  Frozen blood can last longer but it doesnt really come back well.

[anotherone]

27 minutes ago, amers said:

Well, you don't just immediately stop bleeding after birth.

She said she did, by the time she was at the hospital.  (Not trying to perpetuate the argument, I just remember her saying that.)

 

42 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Or just remember how Steve Jobs died.

Off topic, but what was the deal with this?

[MoonFace]

5 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Yes, fresh blood can last about 40 days.  Frozen blood can last longer but it doesnt really come back well.

Thanks. 

So, using the blood most likely wasn't depriving anyone of much needed blood. 

Also, there is the issue that taking iron pills makes one very constipated.    I'm sure you don't want to strain anything down there after a birth.

 

 

[lascuba]

1 minute ago, anotherone said:

Off topic, but what was the deal with this?

He had a pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor, which generally are highly treatable with excellent prognoses (unlike the more common adenocarcinoma, which is what people think of when talking about the deadliness of pancreatic cancer). Instead of immediately going for the recommended surgery, he wasted a lot of time with natural remedies like juicing, allowing the cancer to spread.