Counting On - Part 9: Even the Flashbacks Have Flashbacks

[lascuba]

5 hours ago, anotherone said:

Often blood is in short supply. what if there was an accident victim or emergency surgery and they ran out?

Blood banks have clinical pathologists on hand that manage the supply. They are the ones to give the ok to a doctor's or surgeon's request for blood products and decide how much they get. They have to take into account the hospital's patient load, what procedures are scheduled, if they're a trauma center what they'd need in emergencies, what they can reasonable expect to obtain from the regional blood center if needed, etc. And blood products expire, so it's not like it's this huge waste for Jessa to have received one unit. Jessa wouldn't have been the one to suggest a blood transfusion...her doctor offered the option, since it wasn't an emergency but her levels were in that gray area where a transfusion isn't strictly necessarily at that moment but would help. The pathologist got the request from the doctor, saw Jessa's lab values, looked at  amount and types available and considered all the other variables, and decided that a unit could be spared. 

 

5 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I tend to agree with you, but I suspect another reason she opted for the transfusion is that it is more dramatic.  "I had to have a transfusion!" i more impressive than, "I am weak and now have to take iron pills."

I am surprised though that they didn't just give her blood donated by her siblings instead of from the general supply.  There was no hurry apparently, so why not use guaranteed Duggar blood?

(I gave birth to my kids in the mid to late 80s.  At the MDs suggestion, before the seventh month both my husband and I donated blood in case it was needed by me.  It wasn't and it was donated to the general use.  But having a supply of blood that we knew did not have any diseases we did not already have seemed like a good idea.)

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think that can be done on short notice. Even with a sibling, they'd still have to do typing and all the testing involved in blood donation, as well as separate the blood into its various components (assuming Jessa didn't get whole blood...packed red blood cells would be more likely in her situation.)

ETA: They showed footage of Jessa receiving blood, so she wasn't lying about that.

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, lascuba said:

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think that can be done on short notice. Even with a sibling, they'd still have to do typing and all the testing involved in blood donation, as well as separate the blood into its various components (assuming Jessa didn't get whole blood...packed red blood cells would be more likely in her situation.)

This is consistent with what I was told a few years ago, about a week prior to major surgery, even though I knew I had close relatives with the same blood type.  And it turned out that I needed several units of packed red cells.

[anotherone]

2 hours ago, lascuba said:

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think that can be done on short notice. Even with a sibling, they'd still have to do typing and all the testing involved in blood donation, as well as separate the blood into its various components (assuming Jessa didn't get whole blood...packed red blood cells would be more likely in her situation.)

ETA: They showed footage of Jessa receiving blood, so she wasn't lying about that.

Well now that there's a 100% hit rate (OK only 2 data points, but still...) of the daughters needing emergency services for their births, maybe they will think ahead and donate blood ahead of time the way EmCatlyn described. 

[MarblesMom]

31 minutes ago, anotherone said:

Well now that there's a 100% hit rate (OK only 2 data points, but still...) of the daughters needing emergency services for their births, maybe they will think ahead and donate blood ahead of time the way EmCatlyn described.

Or perhaps seek out "real" medical services for their OB/GYN needs and get themselves to a hospital before things get out of hand.....

[RabbitKM]

I didn't realize there could be side effects to a blood transfusion.  All things being considered, though, I would have opted for the transfusion as well.  

A few years ago, when I was having a surgery, they had me donate blood to be used for myself if need be.  However, I was told that if I didn't need it, they would basically just throw it away, since it was marked as "analogous."  I remember thinking that was such a waste (and they didn't end up using it).

[kjmackin]

All likelihood Ben is probably suffering from stress. Same with Derick, Jill, & Jessa. So much of their lives have changed in the last 2 years. Although Derick, Jill, & Jessa are probably handling it better then Ben or those three are better at hiding it.

 

 

Also to point out that there is a new study that shows having a child and specially the first child is more stressful then situations like death, divorce, or unemployment. The study highlighted that if the birth of the child brings a change in ones social economics then ones stress is usually higher. To me I think the stress of having a kid gotten to him. He either realized that he can't afford the things he wants any more or that going back to school might be as easy as he thought it would. Hell he may have learned that he doesn't like kids or babies.

[EmCatlyn]

9 minutes ago, kjmackin said:

All likelihood Ben is probably suffering from stress. Same with Derick, Jill, & Jessa. So much of their lives have changed in the last 2 years. Although Derick, Jill, & Jessa are probably handling it better then Ben or those three are better at hiding it.

Also to point out that there is a new study that shows having a child and specially the first child is more stressful then situations like death, divorce, or unemployment. The study highlighted that if the birth of the child brings a change in ones social economics then ones stress is usually higher. To me I think the stress of having a kid gotten to him. He either realized that he can't afford the things he wants any more or that going back to school might be as easy as he thought it would. Hell he may have learned that he doesn't like kids or babies.

Agree that having a child is stressful and that Ben may be going through a rough period.  However, I don't think that he is discovering that he can't afford the things he wants any more.  One gets the impression that Ben and Jessa are living rather well with no really great effort on his part. His socio-economic situation does not seem to have changed for the worst at all. 

But he can be experiencing other types of stress.  He may love Spurge and still resent how much noise babies make and how the baby gets attention that Jessa used to give him.  Sex may not be as much fun, either because Jessa always has an ear open for the kid, or because Ben does, or because Ben still hasn't recovered emotionally from seeing her give birth, or because she hasn't recovered emotionally and/or her body has changed....  All sorts of things in addition to the sense of added responsibility may be affecting him.

As for Jessa, I think marriage has empowered her. I think knowing herself to be a mother has validated her sel-importance, and I think she is surprised by how much she loves that baby.  She got to "star" in the TV show after all they "walked through" last year... Her stress is probably balanced by feeling that things are going well (except perhaps in her marriage).

 

[Toothfairy]

Seeing Jessa give birth, Ben probably doesn't want to touch a vagina again. 

[luv2laugh]

Criticize Jessa for other things more major things she and Ben do however it's really silly to see a debate going on over a personal medical decision she made such as a blood transfusion. Last year in May, I fainted during my Physics lab. I fainted 3 other times that day and was panting and gasping for breath just sitting up. I needed to have an ambulance take me to ER. I was discovered to have internal bleeding due to an ulcer. I was hospitalized for 3 miserable days and deemed a "fall risk" and was unable to sit up on my own... My hemoglobin level had dropped to a dangerous low. I needed to have 2 pints of blood transfusions. Within 4 hours after the transfusions, I was able to breathe normally, sit up, and walk around. I literally almost skipped out the door of the hospital and went on to ace my college finals. Blood transfusions saved my life. If I didn't know any better, I would have thought I entered a thread with all Jehovah's Witnesses!

[anotherone]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Blood transfusions saved my life. If I didn't know any better, I would have thought I entered a thread with all Jehovah's Witnesses!

Its not the fact that she did it, its the apparent flippant attitude about it. She did not say it was lifesaving or medically necessary, she said it like, oh eat more vegetables, I'll go w the transfusion instead. It wasn't even, oh i can't afford to be tired with a newborn it seemed - just by the way she said it, just in my opinion -  that it was a choice of convenience. Plus there was resistance to donating in an earlier show, but no problem taking someone elses donations.

For years i have donated every chance i get because i know the importance of it. Think of how great you felt after you got the pint. Think of how i must feel after losing a pint. I feel exhausted for quite a while. Voluntarily. Then what do I have to do? Go and eat more vegetables and take iron pills.  Thats why i started this subject. 

[withaj]

Just because you (general) donate blood (as do I) doesn't mean you get to be the arbiter of who deserves it. She was under the care of medical professionals; if a blood transfusion was a course of action they approved, that's fine by me.

Honestly, there's so much to snark on. I just don't get this particular tangent.

[nst]

7 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Agree that having a child is stressful and that Ben may be going through a rough period.  However, I don't think that he is discovering that he can't afford the things he wants any more.  One gets the impression that Ben and Jessa are living rather well with no really great effort on his part. His socio-economic situation does not seem to have changed for the worst at all. 

But he can be experiencing other types of stress.  He may love Spurge and still resent how much noise babies make and how the baby gets attention that Jessa used to give him.  Sex may not be as much fun, either because Jessa always has an ear open for the kid, or because Ben does, or because Ben still hasn't recovered emotionally from seeing her give birth, or because she hasn't recovered emotionally and/or her body has changed....  All sorts of things in addition to the sense of added responsibility may be affecting him.

As for Jessa, I think marriage has empowered her. I think knowing herself to be a mother has validated her sel-importance, and I think she is surprised by how much she loves that baby.  She got to "star" in the TV show after all they "walked through" last year... Her stress is probably balanced by feeling that things are going well (except perhaps in her marriage).

 

he can't afford the things he wants.  A regular 19 year old only wants girls and some spending money so he can be in school. So unless the future minister wants things like a pulpit ....

Ben is the not the normal 20 year old

he has everything handed to him, whether it's food, clothes, FURNITURE, a HOUSE, a TLC job, and he is stressed by THAT. 

Please - he is probably reacting to marriage, A NEW KID, SCANDLS and trying to create a ministry  that is not going the way he thought. 

As for Jessa  - in her world she achieved everything the show, a marriage and a baby boy headship

as for her loving Spud that's a whole new thing and yes its surprising to see 

[SassyPants]

9 hours ago, RabbitKM said:

I didn't realize there could be side effects to a blood transfusion.  All things being considered, though, I would have opted for the transfusion as well.  

A few years ago, when I was having a surgery, they had me donate blood to be used for myself if need be.  However, I was told that if I didn't need it, they would basically just throw it away, since it was marked as "analogous."  I remember thinking that was such a waste (and they didn't end up using it).

I worked in an Icu for 35 years. In the 80s we gave blood transfusions daily, by 2014, rarely. There are less caustic and risky ways to treat many blood related issues without exposure to blood products- and I can tell you, those ways are usually tried first, unless current, active severe bleeding is involved.

[SassyPants]

Actualy kudos to Ben. His apparent transformation over the last 2 years is appropriate. {Yes, he asked for it by stalking and conquering the hot fundie girl), but his reaction to his situation is completely normal, IMO. He has entered a cult, become isolated, lost his easy income, for a time, learned his wife was molestated by her brother, had a baby shortly after marriage, and at a very young age, and watched his wife push out a huge first spawn...and then see the aftermath.  Who does he look to for support? I doubt any of his friends are experiencing similiar issues. His family lives 3 hours away. There are no co-workers outside the cult. He also knows that if he stays in the cult, there will many more spawns coming his way. If he tries to break away from the tenets of the cult, he risks damnation, both here and forever.

Another reason that physicians are less likely to order a blood transfusion vs other therapies is because giving blood causes the body of the recipient to stop making its own new blood cells- it suppresses that process.

[nst]

8 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Actualy kudos to Ben. His apparent transformation over the last 2 years is appropriate. {Yes, he asked for it by stalking and conquering the hot fundie girl), but his reaction to his situation is completely normal, IMO. He has entered a cult, become isolated, lost his easy income, for a time, learned his wife was molestated by her brother, had a baby shortly after marriage, and at a very young age, and watched his wife push out a huge first spawn...and then see the aftermath.  Who does he look to for support? I doubt any of his friends are experiencing similiar issues. His family lives 3 hours away. There are no co-workers outside the cult. He also knows that if he stays in the cult, there will many more spawns coming his way. If he tries to break away from the tenets of the cult, he risks damnation, both here and forever.

Another reason that physicians are less likely to order a blood transfusion vs other therapies is because giving blood causes the body of the recipient to stop making its own new blood cells- it suppresses that process.

it seems the only "friends" Ben has are the exact same as his wife's - apart from Flame 

and does anyone see Flame anywhere recently 

clearly the cult rejects things and normal friends is one of them 

I love the risk damnation both here and forever quote  and that is what he is probably weary of 

the forever part 

 

[2manyKidzzz]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Actualy kudos to Ben. His apparent transformation over the last 2 years is appropriate. {Yes, he asked for it by stalking and conquering the hot fundie girl), but his reaction to his situation is completely normal, IMO. He has entered a cult, become isolated, lost his easy income, for a time, learned his wife was molestated by her brother, had a baby shortly after marriage, and at a very young age, and watched his wife push out a huge first spawn...and then see the aftermath.  Who does he look to for support? I doubt any of his friends are experiencing similiar issues. His family lives 3 hours away. There are no co-workers outside the cult. He also knows that if he stays in the cult, there will many more spawns coming his way. If he tries to break away from the tenets of the cult, he risks damnation, both here and forever.

Another reason that physicians are less likely to order a blood transfusion vs other therapies is because giving blood causes the body of the recipient to stop making its own new blood cells- it suppresses that process.

Sassy, so the body of the recipient stops making its own new blood cells temporarily or permanently? Your posts are always good, thanks.  

I may have gone for the blood transfusion. Hard to know just after giving birth what decision one would make. 

[Audrey2]

21 hours ago, anotherone said:

Well I put all this effort every 2-3 months to donate ( i have a less common type) and i hate to think its getting used for someone who just doesnt feel like making the effort to change her diet. I mean, i dont like needles and im tired for another 24-48 hrs after donating,  but i do it anyway. So i kind of took that personally and it bugged me.

Thank you for donating. Thanks to wonderful people like you, I was able to spend an extra year with my Dad, who regularly received blood and platelets.

[PennySycamore]

@SassyPants,  I'd like to know what @2manyKidzzz asked as well. 

[Ungodly Grandma]

On 5/4/2016 at 3:28 PM, anotherone said:

I think it's weird to "can't believe I'm engaged."  Normal people actually believe it, since they probably dated a while, discussed the concept of marriage and what would be expected of each (would you both work, what city to live in, how many children, how to spend/save, would you still work after the children, etc.)  So even if the ring and the time and place were a surprise, usually you kind of knew it was coming or not.

Normal people have other things to talk about. And think about.

 

[nastyhobbitses]

4 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Sassy, so the body of the recipient stops making its own new blood cells temporarily or permanently? Your posts are always good, thanks.  

I may have gone for the blood transfusion. Hard to know just after giving birth what decision one would make. 

To be honest, I may have as well. If I'd just shoved 10 pounds of screaming, pooping flesh that I'm going to have to take responsibility for for the next 18+ years out of my vag and then started gushing blood, I'd be like "GIVE ME CYBERNETIC IMPLANTS AND REPLACE MY BLOOD WITH THE VOMIT OF NORSE GODS I DON'T GIVE A FUCK".

I wish I could donate blood. I did once in high school, and immediately after they took the needle out, I said something like "wow, I'm hungry and want to barf at the same time" and realized how...floppy I felt. The Red Cross people immediately shoved me back down on the cot and made me lie there with wet paper towels on my forehead and legs for the next half hour. Then I was really stupid and decided to go to Taekwondo class that evening. I got through warmups OK, and then in the middle of a form, I felt like my muscles just sort of disconnected from my brain, plus that same floppy feeling. Apparently I had zero color in my face. I had to sit out the rest of class.

I figured those side effects were just my own stupidity, so I tried to go donate again. Nope, under the weight cutoff (even more so now), and my time outside of the US might be another strike against me even if the weight cutoff wasn't an issue.

[Percy]

Blood transfusions in Australia cost about $360.00 per bag to administer even though the blood is donated.  Blood products are not given routinely unless there is clinical indication, reason have been mentioned above such as risks with any medical procedure.  I assume the Doctors in the US have similar clinical guidelines and would only administer blood if it was deemed clinically necessary.

[Artemesia]

23 hours ago, Kitcae said:

I think the transfusion made sense for Jessa's situation. Who would want to spend 2-3 months taking pills and healing, while caring for a newborn, while needing to have energy and looking put together for filming the show? 

Sometimes you can just get an IV iron infusion. Maybe it was that and not blood? Just speculating ...

[anotherone]

1 hour ago, nastyhobbitses said:

To be honest, I may have as well. If I'd just shoved 10 pounds of screaming, pooping flesh that I'm going to have to take responsibility for for the next 18+ years out of my vag and then started gushing blood, I'd be like "GIVE ME CYBERNETIC IMPLANTS AND REPLACE MY BLOOD WITH THE VOMIT OF NORSE GODS I DON'T GIVE A FUCK".

I wish I could donate blood. I did once in high school, and immediately after they took the needle out, I said something like "wow, I'm hungry and want to barf at the same time" and realized how...floppy I felt. The Red Cross people immediately shoved me back down on the cot and made me lie there with wet paper towels on my forehead and legs for the next half hour. Then I was really stupid and decided to go to Taekwondo class that evening. I got through warmups OK, and then in the middle of a form, I felt like my muscles just sort of disconnected from my brain, plus that same floppy feeling. Apparently I had zero color in my face. I had to sit out the rest of class.

I figured those side effects were just my own stupidity, so I tried to go donate again. Nope, under the weight cutoff (even more so now), and my time outside of the US might be another strike against me even if the weight cutoff wasn't an issue.

I am like that every time.  I'm a gym fanatic and I can't do anything for 1-2 days after donating, so I have to time things right.  I go after a workout, with the following day being the day off from the gym.  That gives 48 hrs of no heavy lifting, but also no walking around a mall or anything like that.  I've pushed it too and had to get someone to drive me home.

Then there is that book of restrictions and to me it seems kind of arbitrary.  Have you spent more than 3 years out of the country anywhere except, Belize, Antarctica, or the Maldives?  Have you taken any of this list of drugs more than three times in any given 2.4 month period between 1974-1985?  OK I'm exaggerating but it seems that way to me.  And there's a question that asks if you've been exposed to anyone else's blood, and I used to always have to explain, kid#1 had bloody nose, kid#2 split knee open on playground, etc.  I used to have more issues when I was younger and thinner, now it seems a bit easier.

[imokit]

UM - this blood transfusion discussion is a bit worrying.

Iron pills are for chronic anaemia - people with low blood counts due to diet.  Anaemia due to production issues.  Its an anaemia which started gradually and can be fixed gradually.  It helps production.

Transfusions are for people with very low blood counts (causing symptoms) and or people with moderate to severe acute blood loss.  Aneamia which is due to loss or is really really bad.

Blood counts are done in pregnancy routinely, they'd have known if Jessa had chronic anaemia and would have started the pills then.

In the case of a low blood count directly post birth, the cause almost certainly due to loss.  She's (probably) perfectly capable of replacing the lost cells but that takes 6-8 weeks and if the counts are sufficiently low it can be dangerous, put you at risk of nasty complications (such as heart attacks) and make you extra tired and weak and unable to move (imagine feeling this with a new born you're supposed to be looking after) and make you heal slower.

 

If the transfusion was due to someone having major surgery or a nasty injury we wouldn't be quibbling over whether or not the person should have accepted a transfusion, unless FJ is secretly a Jehova's Witness forum (I'm not missing that memo, am I?).  We shouldn't be quibbling over this, because its pregnancy and supposed to be natural or whatever.

 

And as someone who's advised on blood transfusions, the decision is normally made by the teams looking after the patient.  The discussion goes along the lines of "your blood count is really low and we think giving you some blood will bring it up and make you feel better, is that OK?"

 

Transfusion risks - rejection and allergy to the blood - incredibly rare as blood is extensively tested against the patients in lab conditions before giving (the exception is in very bad emergencies when hospitals keep Oneg blood to use - Oneg is extensively tested to ensure that there's nothing in it to react with other peoples blood)

Blood born illnesses - HIV, hepatitis etc - used to be very common, now negligible risk in developed countries such as the USA, Canada, UK etc  They screen all donors and all donated blood extensively

Developing antibodies - this was mentioned by a previous poster in the context that they prefer transplanting organs into people who've never had a blood transfusion.  The more blood bags you're given the higher the risk of developing an antibody, this makes subsequent bags harder to match and can make it harder to find blood.  The people who this causes problems for are people with chronic illness requiring regular (monthly/weekly etc) transfusions eg severe thalaseamia.

 

All treatment carries risk.  Transfusion are usually offered when the risks of not transfusing are felt to be greater than the risk of transfusion.

In the case of a women with a significant post partum haemorrhage, ie someone who has lost enough blood, that her blood count is significantly reduced, transfusion is normally safer than waiting for her to fix herself.  If her blood loss wasn't so severe then she can fix herself and wouldn't be offered one.

 

As to iron infusion - they are dangerous, there's a risk of anaphylaxis (severe allergy) and who will get that is impossible to predict (as opposed to blood where you can make the risk negligible by x matching),  It also takes a long time to work.

[quiverofdoubt]

5 minutes ago, imokit said:

snip

Blood counts are done in pregnancy routinely, they'd have known if Jessa had chronic anaemia and would have started the pills then.

 

I just finished a pregnancy and don't believe I once had my blood count done.  maybe once postpartum, they never told me what that draw was for. I had draws done first trimester for very specific screenings, no blood counts.  I was under intense care from a regular ob and a perinatologist.  Jessa had questionable prenatal care, i doubt she would have been tracked for blood counts.  I can't argue with the rest of your post though. It does seem odd to me though that if a transfusion was really truly necessary then why would the doctors give her an option of iron pills/diet change over a transfusion? I know you always have an option in medical care, but wouldn't the discussion be more like "we need to give you a transfusion, you could get very sick with out it" rather than "would you like a blood transfusion or take iron pills?"