Counting On - Part 9: Even the Flashbacks Have Flashbacks

[eandre31]

I always found the Duggar genetics interesting also. Not only because there are so many of them, but because they don't look quite as similar as one would expect imo. Sure, some of them look very much alike, but I don't know if I'd pick most out in public as being siblings. The Bates family, on the other hand, all favor each other greatly. Weird.

I do agree that James? Jason? (They all blur together in the middle to me. I know the face I'm thinking of but not the name) looks like an Amy clone. Jordyn looks like a female Jim Bob (although much cuter). Josie looks like Michelle. Most of them look like they could just be cousins to me though.

Spurge is a good mix of both jessa and Ben to me and Izzy is all Jill. They are both cute either way.

[MarblesMom]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

The thread, by the way, has a message by (now inactive member P. Brooke that combines the two main "molestation rumor" accusations, (Alice's account and the one linked higher up on this thread about the mysterious ATI "young man" who touched a girl inappropriately, etc.). 

I am stunned this info is 5 years old and just now relevant.  Wow.  It was out there a long time ago, and for whatever reason, was stuffed under the couch for a long time.  Yikes.  I am not all about jumping at shadows, but ... wow.  Smoke = fire.  

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

8 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

You think Jana looks like JB??If you can find that picture of Michelle leaning in the grass as a teen, you'll see Jana's face. Michelle was pretty like her daughters as a teen.

I can see how young Michelle and Jana resemble each other by their nice hair and smile but in the face I see more Jimbob. Jana has his nose and facial structure. I kind of think she looks like JB's late dad a bit but pretty lol. To be honest, I saw a super old picture of Jim bob's dad once. He was good looking....sadly for Michelle,  the Boob didn't inherit this. 

[BabyBottlePop]

4 hours ago, Eatingintheprayercloset said:

To be honest, I saw a super old picture of Jim bob's dad once. He was good looking....sadly for Michelle,  the Boob didn't inherit this. 

I just googled his dad Jimmy Lee Duggar (seriously these names!) and even old pictures he doesn't look bad at all! Even handsome. There's a squishy look to Jim Bob's face that is just not very attractive. 

[Drala]

9 hours ago, Tiny Bubbles said:

Something seems off with Ben, for sure. 

Ben is learning the difference between real life and reality show.

[Tiny Bubbles]

Watching the evolution of both Derick and Ben over the last couple of years might turn some potential suitors right off.  

[EmCatlyn]

7 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

I am stunned this info is 5 years old and just now relevant.  Wow.  It was out there a long time ago, and for whatever reason, was stuffed under the couch for a long time.  Yikes.  I am not all about jumping at shadows, but ... wow.  Smoke = fire.  

Yeah, you read that thread and you see people saying that the molestation of sisters rumors have to be wrong because of the way the girls act around Josh. 

The other thing is that if the "woman who went to the home church" source is to be believed, there was clearly a sixth abuse victim: the four girls and the babysitter (admitted by the Duggars during the police investigation) and this daughter of the woman's friend.  

As I said, the different stories still have some holes/discrepancies, but you know that people knew that all was not well with Josh.

Returning to the topic of whether or not Josh was "engaged" to the Holt girl, I think Holt and JB had discussed the match and encouraged the kids to get to know each other and consider courting. It is even possible that Josh asked for permission to court and was given the ok. But it is not clear how serious the "courtship" had been or why the arrangement broke off.  It could be that Holt broke it off when he found out about the molestations, but it is also possible that it was Josh being caught viewing pornography during the Holt campaign that did it.

 

[Bad Wolf]

I wonder if Ben and Derick knew of the molestation in any point in the courtship. If so, I wonder how it was presented. Mild, inappropriate touching by a curious teen? Did they mention the not so mild touching of the younger girls? Derick wasn't around the Duggars in their natural habitat very much before the marriage. Ben had ample opportunity to see them.

[chris]

39 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, you read that thread and you see people saying that the molestation of sisters rumors have to be wrong because of the way the girls act around Josh. 

The other thing is that if the "woman who went to the home church" source is to be believed, there was clearly a sixth abuse victim: the four girls and the babysitter (admitted by the Duggars during the police investigation) and this daughter of the woman's friend.  

As I said, the different stories still have some holes/discrepancies, but you know that people knew that all was not well with Josh.

Returning to the topic of whether or not Josh was "engaged" to the Holt girl, I think Holt and JB had discussed the match and encouraged the kids to get to know each other and consider courting. It is even possible that Josh asked for permission to court and was given the ok. But it is not clear how serious the "courtship" had been or why the arrangement broke off.  It could be that Holt broke it off when he found out about the molestations, but it is also possible that it was Josh being caught viewing pornography during the Holt campaign that did it.

 

That's pretty much what I thought of when I heard of Josh's pre-Anna courtship...basically the fathers arranging the marriage, setting the bride-price, etc.

[FundieFarmer]

I believe when we discussed this when the truth came out, FJers who were around then said they didn't give it much traction because it basically came out of a comment on a gossip rag. They noted and discussed it but didn't go much further because there wasn't a way to substantiate it.

[Alachantal]

On 5/5/2016 at 3:39 PM, Audrey2 said:

 

Regarding Derrick's Sasquatch look, I know the atrocious beards are currently popular for Major League Baseball players. My guy friends laugh at me every time I walk through the living room and have a fit. I sure miss the days when baseball players were the best looking athletes! Derrick could think he's coolly following a trend, or maybe he just loathes shaving.

Maybe shaving hurts his "new face"? I mean he had surgery on his jaw or whatever he did there, maybe it's still tender or painful? I can't think of any other good reason to not even trim your beard lol

[calimojo]

2 hours ago, Hiddenomaha said:

That's pretty much what I thought of when I heard of Josh's pre-Anna courtship...basically the fathers arranging the marriage, setting the bride-price, etc.

My point in my post about Josh being possibly betrothed at a young age isn't that they were formally engaged, per se, but knowing what we know about the Duggars, we know that Jimbob and Michelle would not have encouraged a normal teen dating situation.  So if Josh was linked to the Holt girl, it was obviously done with consent, if not even encouragement by both sets of parents, and it would have been done with the idea of it leading to courtship and marriage.  To me, this shows that via the QF groups that they associated with at the time the idea of committing young teens to a betrothal situation was something they were in agreement with.  To be betrothed is to be promised at a future time for marriage.  Back in the middle ages, and possibly in parts of the world even today,  children are sometimes betrothed to another in infancy.  It was a way of conducting business, a sort of merger of power, land, etc based on the eventual marriage of these two.

If memory serves me right,  both JimBob and Mr Holt were up and comers in their cultish groups.  They had political aspirations and were recruiting new members to their home churches, ATI, IBLP, etc.  I have no problem imagining JB thinking it a grand idea to match his golden boy with their golden girl.  And perhaps he thought getting Josh attached to a future mate would curb his sexual predation on his sisters. 

 

I Don't think people who have beliefs like Jimbob, or Doug Phillips followers (Seewads) would bat an eye at a 17 year old wanting to get married. 

 

Although I do seem to remember that Anna Keller's dad had a rule that his daughters had to be at least 21 before marriage but I might be remembering that incorrectly

17 hours ago, SassyPants said:

In that photo of SES posted ^- I think he looks just like Ben- same pug nose. Same blank stare. Slap some glasses on that baby and he's Bin's twin.

I also think Jinger and JD most favor Michelle's family.

I always thought JGM was the cutest darn thing, but she does strongly favor JB- hope she grows out of that.

And poor Hannie is a Josh clone-

Hey Sassy, Who is JGM?  I am drawing a blank on that one.

[MargaretElliott]

1 hour ago, calimojo said:

Hey Sassy, Who is JGM?  I am drawing a blank on that one.

Jordyn-Grace Makiya?

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, Hiddenomaha said:

That's pretty much what I thought of when I heard of Josh's pre-Anna courtship...basically the fathers arranging the marriage, setting the bride-price, etc.

I don't know about bride price.  There doesn't seem to have been a bride price for Jill.  Now Ben may be serving JB for seven years to pay for Jessa, like Jacob did for Rachel (he'd earlier been tricked and married off to Leah).

And what bride price did Josh pay for Anna?

5 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

I believe when we discussed this when the truth came out, FJers who were around then said they didn't give it much traction because it basically came out of a comment on a gossip rag. They noted and discussed it but didn't go much further because there wasn't a way to substantiate it.

Yes, there is clearly a diiscussion in the thread that I linked to. And there clearly was no way to know. There were a lot of weird rumors about the Duggars, I remember (and I wasn't even following them) including a false one that their oldest daughter (she even had a j-name) had rebelled and run off. 

Years from now there may be things we have discussed and dismissed as inconclusive today (for example JB's finances) that have been proven one way or the other.   And we may marvel that we didn't "see" more clearly "back in 2016."

[Ungodly Grandma]

16 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I don't know about bride price.  There doesn't seem to have been a bride price for Jill.  Now Ben may be serving JB for seven years to pay for Jessa, like Jacob did for Rachel (he'd earlier been tricked and married off to Leah).

And what bride price did Josh pay for Anna?

Yes, there is clearly a diiscussion in the thread that I linked to. And there clearly was no way to know. There were a lot of weird rumors about the Duggars, I remember (and I wasn't even following them) including a false one that their oldest daughter (she even had a j-name) had rebelled and run off. 

Years from now there may be things we have discussed and dismissed as inconclusive today (for example JB's finances) that have been proven one way or the other.   And we may marvel that we didn't "see" more clearly "back in 2016."

Re Ben/Jacob maybe after seven years Ben can work for JB another seven years but trade up for Jinger!

[choralcrusader8613]

16 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I have wondered if it would be appropriate for a wonderful helpmeet to take the relevant parts of that thread and turn it into an entry in the Joshley database at the start of this forum.  It would save our reinventing the wheel each time someone asks. In the meantime, the old thread is there.

Just wanted to let people know that I tagged the thread in that post with Josh Duggar's tag, as well as a few others, which should make it easier to find. Not sure why it wasn't tagged before but it is now.

[Imagine20]

Derick could trim his beard without hurting his face. If this is his first time with one, he might not know how to maintain it. Personally, I think he's using it to hide how thin he's gotten and whatever seems to have gone wrong with his jaw. 

[socalrules]

Maybe Derrick has an out of control beard because if he kept it short it would be patchy. Maybe he doesn't grow a full beard that would look nice if kept properly. I see no other reason to look like you have been shipwrecked. Otherwise, my money is still on some type of depression going on.

Honestly, it is not a good look if you are trying to engage strangers in a language of which you are unfamiliar. He looks scary, not friendly. There is no excuse to look so unkempt. It makes me wonder if he is bathing everyday and changing clothes. My hair can get out of control easily but you better believe that it has been brushed and combed before I go out, even if it still is frizzy as my hair has no idea how to lay down flat. 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

Re Ben/Jacob maybe after seven years Ben can work for JB another seven years but trade up for Jinger!

Seven years from now he might want Johanna.

But I don't see Ben being willing to work for JB another 7 years.  

[Coconut Flan]

Let's not go there talking about the minor girls like that. 

[clueliss]

Can we please not diagnose depression based on growth of facial hair?  There's enough to snark on with these people without stuff like that added in.

[anotherone]

So I went to watch the show on Comcast on demand and picked the most recent show.  It turns out that it was the one where they were packing, not the one where the little boys met.  For one, I don't know why Comcast is so far behind in putting up the recent episode, it's been like 4 days. Second, when I was watching, besides being totally bored by the flashbacks, I did notice how Jessa said when she lost all that blood that she was given the options for eating more iron rich foods and taking iron pills, or getting a transfusion.  She was so quick to say, transfusion!, but no mention about being grateful for the people that donated blood that she could just make such a quick decision.  They were all squeamish about donating blood (maybe because the decision was thrust upon them) but there should be some acknowledgement or just consideration where this stuff comes from. 

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, clueliss said:

Can we please not diagnose depression based on growth of facial hair?  There's enough to snark on with these people without stuff like that added in.

While it's true that you can't diagnose depression from facial hair, a lack of attention to personal hygiene and/or a major change in grooming habits can be pretty common warning signs. That's not necessarily the case (it's entirely possible he just likes it or it's more convenient) but I don't think the possibility has to be ignored just because it's not a certainty.

[nst]

11 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

I wonder if Ben and Derick knew of the molestation in any point in the courtship. If so, I wonder how it was presented. Mild, inappropriate touching by a curious teen? Did they mention the not so mild touching of the younger girls? Derick wasn't around the Duggars in their natural habitat very much before the marriage. Ben had ample opportunity to see them.

I doubt Ben would tell us exactly what he thought.  He is all about show and the ministry. But it seems  to me he took his cues from Jessa who dismissed it practically and told us off, as for Jill and Derick it looks like he took his cues from Jill and bolted and fled the country and actually told us how he somewhat was allowed to feel. 
it looks like these people have trouble telling us their real feelings 

oh and on the DFM there is a picture of Jennifer using an ironing machine and the brilliant Duggars called her Jordyn 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

22 hours ago, Tiny Bubbles said:

Something seems off with Ben, for sure. 

Shit just got real for him. He's got a wife, he probably doesn't really love, and a kid he has no idea who to raise. He got caught up in the TV and possibility of sex and now he's in reality and he has no idea what to do.