More Joshley: Still hiding - Part 16

[nst]

9 hours ago, lascuba said:

I agree about Jill's need to defend her family. I think they all have the same issue. I've said it before, but I think their celebrity status makes it less likely that they'd leave the fold, not more. Whatever they might actually think or do differently, they know that any public statement of disagreement with their parents would open up even more public criticism than they already get. But Jill's comments about the molestation and "safeguards" go way beyond that and I can't view them in the same light as other issues. 

Jessa constantly as a married woman defends her family' s ways.  Regardless of that fact that she married an interchangeable man.  

I think she needs to stop being so public about what she feels that the public thinks is wrong- yet we know is not wrong. And the only reason she does that is because she has a show. Once the show is gone she can post coffins and no one will care. 

Their celebrity status encourages them to spool their beliefs on their pages.

Jessa may say out loud - I know my mom was brilliant - she is a vice of knowledge 

but then she will do an interview with BEN who they both state they are doing things differently 

contraction in terms and it is obvious that she is towing a line - just don't know which line at what times. 

[anotherone]

6 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

In many places those are against the building code for indoor locks to escape routes. Here, it won't get approved if the house is undergoing inspection. We had our locks replaced for that reason...darn roommate kept taking the key out. When she left and I had the locks replaced I had them put a blade in with it- or whatever it's called.

Key deadbolts are good for back doors with windows.  Otherwise a robber can just break the window and reach in and flip the deadbolt if it's the turn kind.  So I lived in a lot of apartments with that key deadbolt, but I'd hammer a little nail on the wall about 6 inches away, and hang a key there.  If you try to break in you won't know it's there, you can just see it from the inside, but easy to grab in a split second if you're inside and want to get out.

Of course that won't work if you have an irresponsible roommate....

[nokidsmom]

12 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I haven't been watching this family for as long as some of you, but the feeling I got from Jill during the Megan Kelly interview and the sexual abuse special was that she felt her family was being criticized and that she needed to defend the family.   When people are being defensive, they are not willing to listen even to the questions that come from their own hearts.

Jill may not do things the way her parents did, but she is not ready (she may never be ready) to suggest that their way was not perfectly right or the best. Not even when she is doing differently.

I have some cousins who were seriously attached to their mother to the point of idealization.  She was a charming woman (I loved her dearly) but she was also very inflexible, very convinced that there was one way to do things, very insistent about what "should" and "shouldn't" be. She was a devout Catholic with somewhat ante-deluvian notions about social behavior and childhood discipline. She spanked (with the flat of the hand for minor offenses, with a slipper for major ones) and her dsughters were taught to be seen and not heard until they became "civilized" young ladies.  There were several choices my aunt made that led to my cousins being forced to make sacrifices and work in ways they shouldn't have had to.  They never recognized that their mother was to "blame."  Upon her death, both of them described their mother as their "best friend." And they always said that they wanted to be as good at mothering as she had been.

And yet, my cousins didn't live the way they had been raised. They did not use corporal punishment on their children.  They were fairly relaxed in their Catholic observance.  My cousin's daughter was allowed to be a tomboy.  They did not follow their mother's footsteps. But they never articulated any disagreement. It is as if they can't admit it, even to themselves.

I suspect the Duggars may suffer from a particularly intense version of this problem.  (My cousins at least didn't have to compete with 17 other siblings and they both were allowed to go to college, though they had to live at home.)

I have seen a similar thing go on in my family.  The adult children are still strongly attached to their parents and cannot admit any sort of fault or mistake even when it's been in front of their faces.   Same parents believed that there was only one way to do things but the idealizing adult children are not following their parents' parenting style to the letter.    But they never disagreed, ever.  Admitting that their parents made mistakes or even had a character fault is (in short, they were human) is something they can't bring themselves to do, it's being disloyal somehow.    I agree that something like this is most likely going on with the Duggars.

Back to Jill, I also felt, during the MK interview, that she felt the family honor had been tarnished and was jumping in to defend them.    At the same time, I felt she really didn't want to be sitting there discussing what happened.  She seemed to resent the issue being dragged out into the public view, but I suspect it might be more than that. She wants to believe that her parents did everything right, but I got a sense that she was realizing on some level that they made some very real mistakes.  I got this feeling more so with Jill than Jessa.  

[nst]

Yes, I think Jessa wanted to protect the "FAMILY" brand, not necessarily herself, (the way she goes on and on about the FAMILY) while Jill wanted to protect mostly herself and the parents - the brand I think she didn't care about. 

She hated the issue being brought up - they both did. 

 

[nokidsmom]

10 minutes ago, nst said:

Yes, I think Jessa wanted to protect the "FAMILY" brand, not necessarily herself, (the way she goes on and on about the FAMILY) while Jill wanted to protect mostly herself and the parents - the brand I think she didn't care about. 

She hated the issue being brought up - they both did. 

 

Agree that for Jessa, it was the brand and for Jill, it was the parents.  Also herself, I got the strong sense that she was trying to protect herself from some very uncomfortable feelings / realizations. 

Jessa seemed to me a bit more detached on a personal level but you could tell she was pissed over the brand being damaged, the very brand she and Ben were depending on for fame and money. This clearly threw a monkey wrench into their plans. Though I suspect that Jessa is a bit more realistic about her parents while Jill still has them up on the pedestal.  

Agree neither wanted to be there. 

[Hera]

On 5/13/2016 at 7:56 PM, patsymae said:

Good point. And while he was in Washington he probably noticed that the actually important people were glued to their phones all the time, so he thinks it makes him look still important.

This, I would buy.  Although, I cannot imagine trying to conduct business over the phone with someone who was sitting at a table of 20, many of them children, in a crowded Mexican restaurant.  Step outside, dude.  

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, Hera said:

This, I would buy.  Although, I cannot imagine trying to conduct business over the phone with someone who was sitting at a table of 20, many of them children, in a crowded Mexican restaurant.  Step outside, dude.  

But he's not allowed to be alone!

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Agree that for Jessa, it was the brand and for Jill, it was the parents.  Also herself, I got the strong sense that she was trying to protect herself from some very uncomfortable feelings / realizations. 

Jessa seemed to me a bit more detached on a personal level but you could tell she was pissed over the brand being damaged, the very brand she and Ben were depending on for fame and money. This clearly threw a monkey wrench into their plans. Though I suspect that Jessa is a bit more realistic about her parents while Jill still has them up on the pedestal.  

Agree neither wanted to be there. 

In their shoes, I wouldn't have wanted to be there either.

I think Jessa is one of those people who uses "righteous anger" to deal with grief/disappointment while Jill is one of those who can't admit the depth of her own anger--she has to turn it to grief.  In a way they are opposites.

It is possible also that Jill was more deeply affected by the molestations than Jessa.  If the younger girls who were molested turned to Jill for support and/or if she was instructed (as the older one) to be a good example to the others and consider how she might have brought the molestation on herself, etc. the experience may have been rougher on her.  Who knows.

[CorruptionInc.]

7 hours ago, nst said:

Yes, I think Jessa wanted to protect the "FAMILY" brand, not necessarily herself, (the way she goes on and on about the FAMILY) while Jill wanted to protect mostly herself and the parents - the brand I think she didn't care about. 

She hated the issue being brought up - they both did. 

 

 

As these two women are adults in the eyes of the law, you'd think they could speak up and say NO we do NOT want to talk about this. However, it shows so badly how they are under the thumb of JB and he still controls the Quiver. TV appearances = $$$

[NotAnIncubator]

11 hours ago, nst said:

Yes, I think Jessa wanted to protect the "FAMILY" brand, not necessarily herself, (the way she goes on and on about the FAMILY) while Jill wanted to protect mostly herself and the parents - the brand I think she didn't care about. 

She hated the issue being brought up - they both did. 

 

I think it was telling that Jessa said she CANNOT speak for the other victims. Its gonna be interesting to see who talks once theyre married.

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

As these two women are adults in the eyes of the law, you'd think they could speak up and say NO we do NOT want to talk about this. However, it shows so badly how they are under the thumb of JB and he still controls the Quiver. TV appearances = $$$

You know, I am going to give them a pass here.  When I was their age I did a few things I really didn't want to do because my mother put me on the spot and "made" me do them.  

Yes, I could have said "no"  --I did have boundaries. But "no" always meant a fight and sometimes she won.  She could be very plausible because what she asked was something someone else  needed which would be "right" or "appropriate" for me to do/give and which she, my mother, begged me to do because either it would "shame" her if I didn't, or someone else would be hurt if I didn't, and I would regret it when I was older or, it was such a little thing, or I owed it to the family or ... The arguments were all good if you understood her world view, excellent if you agreed with it.

For the Duggar kids who have not be allowed to have any point of view different from their parents, who confuse "God's Will" with "What Daddy Says We Must Do", who were probably made to feel guilty for unwittingly tempting Josh to sin, and who were probably shocked and confused at having the old stuff come up again ...

Sometimes it is hard to refuse to do something you are told is necessary and that only you can do.  I think it would have taken an incredible amount of self-assertion that these girls do not have to be able to tell JB that they did not want speak with Megan Kelly, that they did not want to "out" themselves as "the Victims."  It must have been painful to be paraded as "victims" after all this time and at the same time have to deny that they had suffered or even been aware of how they had been violated.  From their perspective, they just couldn't say "no."

I am not absolving them of the responsibility for going along with the family story and defending Josh.  But I can't blame them.

[Ungodly Grandma]

20 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I have seen a similar thing go on in my family.  The adult children are still strongly attached to their parents and cannot admit any sort of fault or mistake even when it's been in front of their faces.   

I've seen this,too, in my husband's extended family. The one uncle, who was a real abusive a hole, is worshiped  by his kids, never a criticism. Especially now that he's dead. 

[FundieFarmer]

I've seen this,too, in my husband's extended family. The one uncle, who was a real abusive a hole, is worshiped  by his kids, never a criticism. Especially now that he's dead. 

The whole "never speak ill of the dead" thing can really get taken too far sometimes.

[PiecesofmyHeart]

15 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

As these two women are adults in the eyes of the law, you'd think they could speak up and say NO we do NOT want to talk about this. However, it shows so badly how they are under the thumb of JB and he still controls the Quiver. TV appearances = $$$

This.  

Although they are legally adults, since they still rely on JB for support there is very little independence they can have.  Unless Bin and Derick find reliable jobs to support themselves without JB, the girls won't be free from his control.

Also...I have been lurking for a few months but this is my first post!!!

 

[Thumper]

Not to mention Jill's "protection plan" doesn't even take in account of same-sex sibling abuse. That would be terrible to be locked in the same room as your molester. Any critical or constructive thinking is lost on these people. 

[Hera]

23 hours ago, Buzzard said:

But he's not allowed to be alone!

Right.  I forgot all the temptation that might be in the restaurant parking lot.  There might be shoulders out there! Oh, my!

[nokidsmom]

13 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

You know, I am going to give them a pass here.  When I was their age I did a few things I really didn't want to do because my mother put me on the spot and "made" me do them.  

Oh yeah, I had a similar issue with my mother, I had to be really up for a fight if I wanted to say "no" and expect to prevail on it.  And sometimes I didn't win anyway..   Because of this, I also do not blame the girls for not asserting themselves if they didn't want to do the interview or out themselves especially since it was saying "no" to something that would be considered for the "good of the family".   JB and J'chelle were clearly in damage control mode to save their brand and their money.  God's will = Following Daddy.  These young women had no chance of asserting themselves in their particular situation.

[Eternalbluepearl]

Chaperones and rules aren't going to change who someone is. Anna, please don't waste your time policing your adult husband. If he needs policing, then he isn't worth having when you have 4 kids who need your attention. 

[nokidsmom]

4 hours ago, PiecesofmyHeart said:

This.  

Although they are legally adults, since they still rely on JB for support there is very little independence they can have.  Unless Bin and Derick find reliable jobs to support themselves without JB, the girls won't be free from his control.

Also...I have been lurking for a few months but this is my first post!!!

 

First off, welcome! 

To the bolded: this is why I thought that Derick quitting Walmart, assuming he quit voluntarily and there were no other issues, to go do missionary work was a very bad idea.    He seemed to have a decent job for someone recently out of college and could have been a springboard for other opportunities down the line.  Granted he probably had other issues such as a wife with severe separation anxiety and perhaps demands from his in law for filming but still, even if he kept the job, it would look much better on the resume for future opportunities.  Those years after college can be critical and I feel he may have shortchanged himself.    

 

[2manyKidzzz]

I just hope that Derick's degree is substantial enough to carry through into future employment. I feel like it is. If of course he chooses to return to real life. I really wonder how Cathy feels about it all

[PiecesofmyHeart]

Thanks @nokidsmom 

I find it really strange that Derick would be expected to give up his career to jump on the Duggar bandwagon and be a "missionary" on the show.  It's as if he married into the Duggar family-- according to the patriarchy, shouldn't it be the opposite way?  When the Duggar sons marry, will they depend on their wives' fathers for support, or will all the Duggar children still be under the clutches of JB?

You really have to wonder... 

 

[theinvisiblegirl]

34 minutes ago, PiecesofmyHeart said:

Thanks @nokidsmom 

I find it really strange that Derick would be expected to give up his career to jump on the Duggar bandwagon and be a "missionary" on the show.  It's as if he married into the Duggar family-- according to the patriarchy, shouldn't it be the opposite way?  When the Duggar sons marry, will they depend on their wives' fathers for support, or will all the Duggar children still be under the clutches of JB?

You really have to wonder... 

 

I thought the way headships and the umbrella of protection worked was that a daughter was transferred from the headship of a father to the headship of the husband, while a son is forever under the headship of his father? So technically Ben should be mooching off his own father, and Derick... Well, since his father died, I believe he's the headship of his family. Please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong about this. It's all so confusing sometimes.

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I just hope that Derick's degree is substantial enough to carry through into future employment. I feel like it is. If of course he chooses to return to real life. I really wonder how Cathy feels about it all

I don't see why his degree wouldn't help him in the future. If he was smart, he would get some kind of accounting job, even if he isn't a full fledged CPA. The WalMart gig couldn't have been that bad.

ETA: I know WalMart treats its store workers like shit. What I meant was that Derick had a job at corporate, so he probably wasn't treated as shitty, just kind of shitty. Hope that clarifies what I was thinking, because I thought maybe it wasn't clear enough.

[PiecesofmyHeart]

3 hours ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

I thought the way headships and the umbrella of protection worked was that a daughter was transferred from the headship of a father to the headship of the husband, while a son is forever under the headship of his father? So technically Ben should be mooching off his own father, and Derick... Well, since his father died, I believe he's the headship of his family. Please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong about this. It's all so confusing sometimes.

I see what you're saying...

When the son is under the headship of his father, does he become a headship himself when he has his own sons?  The system has so many holes...

[theinvisiblegirl]

4 minutes ago, PiecesofmyHeart said:

I see what you're saying...

When the son is under the headship of his father, does he become a headship himself when he has his own sons?  The system has so many holes...

I believe that he's the headship of his own family unit (i.e., Josh is the headship of Anna and the M-kids), but I don't know at what point a son stops being under the headship of a father. Hopefully someone else can clear it up... Or at least make it a little less confusing lol

[silverspoons]

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I just hope that Derick's degree is substantial enough to carry through into future employment. I feel like it is. If of course he chooses to return to real life. I really wonder how Cathy feels about it all

My SIL has an accounting degree without being a CPA. It was the best she could do while working full time with 2 small kids. She worked hard, some crummy book keeping type jobs for a few years. 15 years later she is a CFO. She had incredible work ethic and was willing to do everyone's job while the company she works for was starting up. I'm not sure if Derrick has that work ethic or if a few years off and the Duggar lifestyle will make him lose the work ethic he had.

I say if they come back to the states, Jim Bob will find a job doing the books at Duggar real estate or construction or whatever the business is called this week. I just hope with Josh getting into that credit card processing business, Jim Bob doesn't make Derrick partner up with Josh or work with him.