Sister Wives 3 - Collective in Crisis?

[ScreamingIzzy]

4 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

@ScreamingIzzy here is the Wiki info on it.  I also have not read up on it, but here it is:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement

Wow. That is not where I would have gone with that phrase. Thanks for that link, @MarblesMom. 

[MarblesMom]

Glad to be of service, @ScreamingIzzy 

If I have provided incorrect info, someone please let us both know.  

 

[DaisyD]

This is the most recent mention of it on the principle page. http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/136911346268/robyn-browns-relationship-with-david-preston

I know it's been mentioned before. She's been busy with the catfish stuff, so there's a bit of digging to do.

[SweetFellowshipper]

6 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

@Cleopatra7 I see what you are saying with the Bateseses and Duggars. I am a survivor of the Bates Leg Hump Wars so get my hackles moving towards the sky easily when it comes to the airheaded twits known as the Bateseeeeeses.

I actually think the Browns had the idea of changing the collective public minds, yes, BUT if I recall correctly, there was more to it than that- I think there was an actual lawsuit of some sort going on when the show started. I think the persecuted flight to Vegas was when they lost the page on that one. Christine had some sort of impact litigation going on that was meant to force the state of Utah to accept polygamy and I just cannot remember the details. Moving to Vegas blunted any real impact that could have had and the change of residence may have actually harmed their original mission. Anyone else recall??

I feel started they out with a mission but some screw turned when they decided to buy into TLC's Vegas deal. Robyn, the SW with the fewest brain cells, instead of furthering their agenda, became the thing that made the whole dynamic shift and led to their clown status. I do truly believe there was an agenda there, but the TLC money and those godawful houses got in the way.

Make sense?

If there was ever an "agenda," it was only to decriminalize polygamy, not to convert others or influence voters like the Duggars and Bateses. Shows that were created to change people's minds about gay marriage before it was legal could have been said to have the same "agenda." Personally, I don't think that belongs in anywhere near the same "political agenda" category as what the Duggars or Bateses are doing. They don't want to decriminalize what THEY are doing. They want to convert and recruit. 

The Browns allow their children to make their own choices, choose their own partners, obtain education and gainful employment, and leave the church with no family repercussions. In fact, we have watched it happen. The Duggars and Bateses do not. I don't see that objectively there is any comparison to be made at all or that one could say they are all the same in any way. At some point, we just find Kody gross (he is) and their relationship gross (it is), but if there's no religious pressure being placed on kids to stay or practice that relationship style, and everyone in the relationship is an adult, well, that's their business and theirs alone.

Moreover, no, the Duggars and Bateses are most certainly not open about their true beliefs or behaviors. That is just factually untrue.  

 

[ALM7]

16 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Where and when did it come out that the Browns were excommunicated?  I haven't seen anything saying that except a couple of people here.

I remember the subject of excommunication as well, but didn't recall the details. The only reference I find is in their collective book entitled... 

Becoming Sister Wives: The Story of an Unconventional Marriage, By Kody Brown, Meri Brown, Janelle Brown, Christine Brown, Robyn Brown

Considering it's featured on a Google owned book preview section I'm hesitant to link. The Google book preview on page 17 indicates it was Kody Brown's parents that were excommunicated.

 

[mstee]

5 hours ago, ALM7 said:

I remember the subject of excommunication as well, but didn't recall the details. The only reference I find is in their collective book entitled... 

Becoming Sister Wives: The Story of an Unconventional Marriage, By Kody Brown, Meri Brown, Janelle Brown, Christine Brown, Robyn Brown

Considering it's featured on a Google owned book preview section I'm hesitant to link. The Google book preview on page 17 indicates it was Kody Brown's parents that were excommunicated.

 

Kody's parents were excommunicated from the LDS church because they chose to become polygamists and then joined the AUB. 

[nelliebelle1197]

5 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

If there was ever an "agenda," it was only to decriminalize polygamy, not to convert others or influence voters like the Duggars and Bateses. Shows that were created to change people's minds about gay marriage before it was legal could have been said to have the same "agenda." Personally, I don't think that belongs in anywhere near the same "political agenda" category as what the Duggars or Bateses are doing. They don't want to decriminalize what THEY are doing. They want to convert and recruit. 

The Browns allow their children to make their own choices, choose their own partners, obtain education and gainful employment, and leave the church with no family repercussions. In fact, we have watched it happen. The Duggars and Bateses do not. I don't see that objectively there is any comparison to be made at all or that one could say they are all the same in any way. At some point, we just find Kody gross (he is) and their relationship gross (it is), but if there's no religious pressure being placed on kids to stay or practice that relationship style, and everyone in the relationship is an adult, well, that's their business and theirs alone.

Moreover, no, the Duggars and Bateses are most certainly not open about their true beliefs or behaviors. That is just factually untrue.  

 

When I did I saw anything that contradicts what you are saying? Especially the last line.

[Coconut Flan]

7 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

This is the most recent mention of it on the principle page. http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/136911346268/robyn-browns-relationship-with-david-preston

Thank you so much.  Searching that tumblr was only getting me so far. 

[DaisyD]

She's been making efforts to get more organized. She started adding tags in the last year, I think. I've just done a lot of reading on it, so I've seen posts that I can no longer find.

As far as racism towards blacks goes, the AUB are racist in the same way the LDS have been in the past (I think it's similar, again, fairly private about these things). As for the Browns, Maddie went on at least one date with a black man and posted on social media about it. Take from that what you will.

[SweetFellowshipper]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

When I did I saw anything that contradicts what you are saying? Especially the last line.

My only response to you was on the "agenda" aspect. The rest was to the thread in general. Sorry if that was unclear. 

[nelliebelle1197]

Just now, SweetFellowshipper said:

My only response to you was on the "agenda" aspect. The rest was to the thread in general. Sorry if that was unclear. 

Okay- and yes, that was the type of agenda, a political one. I think show really started out at least for Christine as a political statement.

[Cleopatra7]

12 minutes ago, daisyd681 said:

She's been making efforts to get more organized. She started adding tags in the last year, I think. I've just done a lot of reading on it, so I've seen posts that I can no longer find.

As far as racism towards blacks goes, the AUB are racist in the same way the LDS have been in the past (I think it's similar, again, fairly private about these things). As for the Browns, Maddie went on at least one date with a black man and posted on social media about it. Take from that what you will.

My question about blacks upthread stems from the fact that it seems like a number of LDS became AUB after the priesthood was opened up to black men in the 1970s. I don't have any numbers on this, but it reminds me of how Catholic traditionalists separated themselves from the mainstream Catholic Church after Vatican II. Traditionalists may not be large in number (maybe a million tops), but they exert a huge influence on Catholic discourse. According to this quote from the AUB Wikipedia entry:

Quote

The "AUB" accepts the mainstream LDS Church as Christ's Church but views it as "out of order" just as the Israelites were "out of order" at the time of Christ—still accepted, just somewhat prodigal. Its members are taught that they should not disparage the LDS Church and its leaders teach that "the mother church" should be respected by the "father" (AUB or "the priesthood") the same as a husband should take care of and honor a wayward wife inasmuch as he is able to do so. Incidentally, AUB's leaders commonly concede that no organization is exempt from being out of order to some degree (including the AUB) but they emphasize that the LDS Church has abandoned many doctrines taught by the early brethren—not just plural marriage. Some of these doctrines include: Adam-God teachings; united order or "full consecration"; proper conferral of the priesthood; the ban on blacks receiving the priesthood; the doctrine of dissolution; the kingdom of God as a separate organization from the Church; the ordinance of rebaptism; the ordinance of mother’s blessings; giving a complete temple endowment (as opposed to the shortened version now administered in the LDS Church); the wearing of a full length, unaltered garment; the unchanging nature of all ordinances; prayer circles outside of the temple; the law of adoption (sealing men to men as father/son); and the teaching that a living prophet can never lead you astray—even if he strays from teachings and revelations of previous prophets.

For me, the big issue is that if the Browns really aren't AUB or any flavor of Mormon fundamentalist as we understand the term, then why are they subjecting themselves to this dysfunctional situation? It's quite obvious that the original three wives aren't happy and haven't been so in quite a while. Meri was ready to leave the family to run off with some random stranger on the Internet, and only didn't because there was no actual guy behind the computer screen. The so-called "sisterhood" that the women claim to have is obviously false, as they seem more like frenemies who share the same baby daddy and have to place nice for the good of the children. The only reason why any of these women put up with Kody is because of religion, because they fear they won't get to the Celestial Kingdom and be with their children for eternity without being polygamous. As with the Duggars, TLC isn't explaining the religious reasons for why the Browns act the way they do, even when religion is the elephant in the room.

[theinvisiblegirl]

Re: the therapy session

Their therapist from Utah dealt with many other polygamous families. When they moved to Las Vegas, they had to find someone that would work with them. The woman they chose - I believe her name is Nancy? - had never worked with a polygamous family before.

Meri tweeted on Sunday that the therapy session actually apparently lasted 6 hours, so not everything they covered was shown, not that I expected to be shown everything anyway.

Re: blood atonement

Carolyn Jessop, former member of the FLDS, writes about the concept in her book Escape; it's been awhile since I read them, but it might be discussed in Triumph, too. I was in 8th grade when I read her book, so the concept was very shocking to me. 8 years later, and it's still shocking. I wonder what the Browns' view of it is... And is blood atonement a thing in the AUB?

[FundieFarmer]

TW for...divorce, forced child abandonment, murder, and spousal abuse. Evidently they do believe in blood atonement. Here's a post on it. One quote reads: 

Quote

In extreme cases the sect also believes in blood atonement according to Janae. “I know of husbands in the sect who said they would literally ‘find and gut’ their exes,” she claims.

Blood atonement also appears 2 other times in a CTL+F search. The woman speaking in the article, Janae, once shared a husband with Kody Brown's little sister, Christy. Of her divorce from Christy & Kurt King, she says, 

Quote

Kurt said if I left with any of “his” children that he would “track me down and gut me open.” That’s part of the polygamist’s belief system.  They believe the children belong to the man and they still believe in “blood atonement” if the wife ever leaves.  That she will be more blessed in heaven if he kills her so that she can “blood atone” for her sin in the event that she marries another man and commits “adultery.” 

 

[withaj]

I missed this conversation developing, but just another discussion that would fit well in a Quiver Full of Fundamentalist Mormons forum  hint, hint.

[choralcrusader8613]

4 minutes ago, withaj said:

I missed this conversation developing, but just another discussion that would fit well in a Quiver Full of Fundamentalist Mormons forum  hint, hint.

There's an FLDS tag that's full of info. I know that doesn't cover all fundie Mormons, but it's a start.

http://www.freejinger.org/tags/flds/

[withaj]

22 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

There's an FLDS tag that's full of info. I know that doesn't cover all fundie Mormons, but it's a start.

http://www.freejinger.org/tags/flds/

Oh, I know! I just think it's worthy of a forum, since QFoS has been expanded a good deal lately already. FLDS is only the tip of the iceberg. I'd rather talk about the wide, wild world of fundamentalist mormons than, say, new-forum-honoree PP any day, and I know there are at least a handful here who share the interest.

[DaisyD]

2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

For me, the big issue is that if the Browns really aren't AUB or any flavor of Mormon fundamentalist as we understand the term, then why are they subjecting themselves to this dysfunctional situation? It's quite obvious that the original three wives aren't happy and haven't been so in quite a while. Meri was ready to leave the family to run off with some random stranger on the Internet, and only didn't because there was no actual guy behind the computer screen. The so-called "sisterhood" that the women claim to have is obviously false, as they seem more like frenemies who share the same baby daddy and have to place nice for the good of the children. The only reason why any of these women put up with Kody is because of religion, because they fear they won't get to the Celestial Kingdom and be with their children for eternity without being polygamous. As with the Duggars, TLC isn't explaining the religious reasons for why the Browns act the way they do, even when religion is the elephant in the room.

I think that they were AUB, and have drifted to a more open minded state. It's one of the ways people break out of a faith they were raised in. They were, let's call it sheltered or maybe just ignorant. They lived their faith and entered into these relationships. When they went public it caused a schism with their church. It's possible (I'd even venture probable) that they were already on the liberal side of the church's views. I saw quite a shift after they moved to Vegas. They talked a lot about the people there not judging them and the freedom of not having to hide like they did in Utah. Meeting new people outside of their faith likely shifted them even further. My take on it is that they want/need to stay together because family is still their highest priority, and this is the way forward that they see. Right or wrong, it's their choice to make. It may be a rose tinted view of them. For me, the proof is in the pudding. The children coming out of that group have a variety of views and don't spout any of the more nefarious tenets of the AUB. 

1 minute ago, withaj said:

Oh, I know! I just think it's worthy of a forum, since QFoS has been expanded a good deal lately already. FLDS is only the tip of the iceberg. I'd rather talk about the wide, wild world of fundamentalist mormons than, say, new-forum-honoree PP any day, and I know there are at least a handful here who share the interest.

There are quite a number of polygamous groups out there. I don't see the Kingston Clan discussed here much at all. They make even the darker side of AUB seem like playground drama.

[FundieFarmer]

4 minutes ago, withaj said:

Oh, I know! I just think it's worthy of a forum, since QFoS has been expanded a good deal lately already. FLDS is only the tip of the iceberg. I'd rather talk about the wide, wild world of fundamentalist mormons than, say, new-forum-honoree PP any day, and I know there are at least a handful here who share the interest.

The Helpmeets and Admins discussed it, and think we will hold off for now on the whole sub forum...the bolded being quite a good reason why. We expanded the subs to make room for those with the traffic, and fundamentalist mormons aren't quite there yet, but the tag is a good place to start! We want others to discover the topic in the QFOS, which they won't if they're squirreled away into their own sub. If everyone tags the threads they start, and we see the need for it, we'll make it! We just aren't quite there yet

But gosh if I'm not there with you on FLDS > PP any day.

[Cleopatra7]

50 minutes ago, daisyd681 said:

 

There are quite a number of polygamous groups out there. I don't see the Kingston Clan discussed here much at all. They make even the darker side of AUB seem like playground drama.

From what little I've been able to gather about the Kingstons, they seem evenore insular and abusive than the FLDS, if such a thing is imaginable. Enough people have left the FLDS for there to be resources to help people to want to leave and integrate them into mainstream society. The same is not true with the Kingstons, who pay their workers, many of them children, in script that can only be used at Kingston owned stores so no one can have independent funds. The fact that full and half siblings are forced to marry also creates a layer of shame that may prevent people from leaving. Although the group claims that its bloodline is extra pure and special, on some level members have to know that such unions are seen as extremely taboo. The Kingstons are an organized crime family and should be treated as such, but prosecutors seem to be loathe to do anything about it, probably because the mainstream LDS Church doesnt want the public associating the Kingstons with itself. I have to wonder if that's why the LeBaron family killings are so obscure, even though they killed way more people than, say, the Manson family.

[withaj]

9 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

From what little I've been able to gather about the Kingstons, they seem evenore insular and abusive than the FLDS, if such a thing is imaginable. Enough people have left the FLDS for there to be resources to help people to want to leave and integrate them into mainstream society. The same is not true with the Kingstons, who pay their workers, many of them children, in script that can only be used at Kingston owned stores so no one can have independent funds. The fact that full and half siblings are forced to marry also creates a layer of shame that may prevent people from leaving. Although the group claims that its bloodline is extra pure and special, on some level members have to know that such unions are seen as extremely taboo. The Kingstons are an organized crime family and should be treated as such, but prosecutors seem to be loathe to do anything about it, probably because the mainstream LDS Church doesnt want the public associating the Kingstons with itself. I have to wonder if that's why the LeBaron family killings are so obscure, even though they killed way more people than, say, the Manson family.

Yes, the Kingstons are terrifying. Reminds me of the artificial insemination plot line with sibling-derived embryos in Big Love. Oh, except it's real, and it's not done artificially, and it is done systematically. YIKES.

[SilverBeach]

There was a young lady who escaped from the Kingston's who visited with the Browns. She was very much anti-polygamy. She was also very articulate and well spoken, IIRC.

[caszandra]

@SilverBeach, that was Kolleen Snow who was on the show with the Browns. She along with several others who have escaped from the Kingston clan have their own TV show called Escaping Polygamy. They get word of someone wanting to leave and go help them accomplish that (they have also helped FLDS members as well). I'm not sure what channel it is on in the US but it is on the Lifetime channel in the UK.

There is also videos on You Tube called Polygamy - What Love Is This which feature another escapee from the Kingston Clan called Doris Hanson. She has interviewed lots of ex polygamists and I have enjoyed watching the videos as they are very informative. 

[FundieFarmer]

Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know about either the show or the YouTube videos so I'll have to go check those out!

[withaj]

3 hours ago, caszandra said:

@SilverBeach, that was Kolleen Snow who was on the show with the Browns. She along with several others who have escaped from the Kingston clan have their own TV show called Escaping Polygamy. They get word of someone wanting to leave and go help them accomplish that (they have also helped FLDS members as well). I'm not sure what channel it is on in the US but it is on the Lifetime channel in the UK.

There is also videos on You Tube called Polygamy - What Love Is This which feature another escapee from the Kingston Clan called Doris Hanson. She has interviewed lots of ex polygamists and I have enjoyed watching the videos as they are very informative. 

I have trouble watching the "Polygamy - What Love Is This" shows because of the cheesy I-found-the-real-Jesus stuff, but she certainly has a compelling story and the Kingston perspective is unusual.

14 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know about either the show or the YouTube videos so I'll have to go check those out!

Aside from the show itself, the "Polygamy - What Love Is This" channel has also uploaded video interviews from the 2011 Canadian supreme court case to determine whether its ban on polygamy was constitutional. They are really fascinating and cover a range of polygamist experiences in the US and Canada. Some of the "big name" escapees like Carolyn Jessop and Brent Jeffs are included. If you search "Canada polygamy study" on Youtube they all come up. The interviews with the Mackert sisters are heartbreaking.