Sister Wives 3 - Collective in Crisis?

[Coconut Flan]

Where and when did it come out that the Browns were excommunicated?  I haven't seen anything saying that except a couple of people here.

[2manyKidzzz]

40 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

8.  If I am of Native Decent, but my skin normally takes after the Irish side of the family, am I still cursed?  Am I partially cursed?  Am I only cursed when I tan?  

9.  Is my mother more cursed than me?  Does tribal registration impact the severity of our curse?

10.  If my mother LOOKS more Native, but I am more culturally connected to my tribe, who is more cursed?  Is it physical or also spiritual?

11.  Now that genetic analysis and dating of pre-historic bodies from the Americas has proven the Book of Mormon to be completely and utterly factually incorrect about the history of Native American peoples, will this be edited out?

12.  If not, can I tell you that your book is a book of lies and you can go to hell?  What about my non-cursed father?  

You are very clever!! Funny. 

What about number 11? Where can I find this?  I know very little about LDS but did think that the part about JC coming to the Americas was a huge thing. Wow. And now all disproved. 

Nothing like a bit of organized religion, there ya go. 

[Georgiana]

5 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

You are very clever!! Funny. 

What about number 11? Where can I find this?  I know very little about LDS but did think that the part about JC coming to the Americas was a huge thing. Wow. And now all disproved. 

Nothing like a bit of organized religion, there ya go. 

Well, it was never considered factually correct by anyone outside of Mormonism to begin with.  However, the Kennewick Man just finished with his DNA sequencing, which pretty much shows that the people that lived in America 9,000 years ago were NOT closely related to Israelites (as would be expected of a lost tribe), but a unique and separate group.     

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/28/after-20-years-in-legal-limbo-9000-year-old-kennewick-man-set-to-receive-native-american-burial/

Specifically the DNA:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-06/sumc-kmc061715.php 

[SweetFellowshipper]

Not allowing their children personal freedom is pretty much what makes the Duggars and Bateses so awful. The Sister Wives clan might have some weird beliefs, but they have been explicit about their feelings on homophobia, sexism, and to a lesser extent, racism. Their children choose their partners and leave their faith at will. Most have been publicly outspoken about leaving since before they were of age. They would never reject a child for their choice in partner. They were not even expected to attend home church with the family if they did not believe. They are open about their belief in gay marriage. I don't see how they are in any way comparable as parents or people except that they personally (except Janelle) grew up in a weird ass faith and practiced it as adults. Kody is a dick and I hate him, but I don't think he is as fundamentally bad as, say, Gil or JB. He would never cover up his daughters' hanging around a sexual abuser. Wouldn't happen. Their kids have secular educations and friends of all races and orientations.

They might privately have some objectionable views, but they don't seem to vote that way and they definitely don't raise their children that way. 

They are not attractive like the Bateses and have a messed up marriage and a weird history with the AUB. But that's about it. 

[DaisyD]

I don't remember exactly where I saw that. It may have been The Principle Tumblr. I'll post if I come across it again. 

[Coconut Flan]

Thanks for looking.  It isn't so much I would doubt it as I like to know the source especially before I would pass along the information. 

[theinvisiblegirl]

35 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Not allowing their children personal freedom is pretty much what makes the Duggars and Bateses so awful. The Sister Wives clan might have some weird beliefs, but they have been explicit about their feelings on homophobia, sexism, and to a lesser extent, racism. Their children choose their partners and leave their faith at will. Most have been publicly outspoken about leaving since before they were of age. They would never reject a child for their choice in partner. They were not even expected to attend home church with the family if they did not believe. They are open about their belief in gay marriage. I don't see how they are in any way comparable as parents or people except that they personally (except Janelle) grew up in a weird ass faith and practiced it as adults. Kody is a dick and I hate him, but I don't think he is as fundamentally bad as, say, Gil or JB. He would never cover up his daughters' hanging around a sexual abuser. Wouldn't happen. Their kids have secular educations and friends of all races and orientations.

They might privately have some objectionable views, but they don't seem to vote that way and they definitely don't raise their children that way. 

They are not attractive like the Bateses and have a messed up marriage and a weird history with the AUB. But that's about it. 

That's also why I "like" the Browns more than the Duggars and Bateses. Besides modesty and Kody's rather odd research into the hormones released when kissing (I got such a kick when Madison kissed her fiance right in front of him; even if they're engaged, I wonder if he thought they should save the kissing for marriage), they don't seem to force anything crazy on their kids. Seem being the operative word, because we only get an edited view into their life.

As for what I bolded, I don't really know about that. When Rand Paul was running, Kody was a staunch supporter and as expressed that he wishes that he was still running today. But they don't seem to force those views onto their kids, either, because Mariah is a big Bernie supporter.

[Natalie22]

2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

As with the Duggars and the Bateses, I get the impression that there is a lot about the Browns and their beliefs that TLC isn't showing us. Unlike the Duggars and the Bateses, who are quite open about their ATI beliefs and stump for Gothard whenever they can, the Browns' beliefs are harder to pin down. The AUB purposely try to keep a low profile, presumably because of the bad reputation polygamy has, and it doesn't seem like they like visitors. This is a description of a visit a complete outsider made to an AUB church:

http://52weeks52churches.blogspot.com/2014/05/my-surreal-visit-to-apostolic-united.html

 

The Browns seem "better" than the Duggars and the Bateses simply because they aren't trying to "save America" and convert the world to AUBism or whatever they believe now, and seem to allow their children personal freedom. At the same time, we don't know exactly what they Browns are teaching their kids, aside from some vague notions about "modesty," which could mean anything. More than the Duggar and Bates shows, SW focuses on the relationships between the adults, whereas the kids are just kind of "there." Consequently, it is harder to gauge how polygamy affects the kids on a personal level. 

Some questions I would like to have answered about the Sister Wives crew:

1. What are your opinions of black people? Do you think black men should be allowed to have the priesthood?

2. Is a wrong for woman to want to be the only wife in a relationship? Is a monogamous family "less blessed" than a polygamous one?

3. Do you believe in the Adam-God doctrine?

4. Do you believe in blood atonement?

5. How do you view Parley Pratt and the Danites?

6. What are your opinions of the mainstream LDS church?

7. If "family is forever" in the Celestial Kingdom, what are the benefits of having a polygamous household on earth where the wives don't get along, and to have that dysfunction continue in the afterlife?

I believe they've addressed at least the two bolded questions multiple times.  Many of their children have said they want a monogamous relationship and it seems that at least Kody and Janelle have siblings who are monogamous.  It also seems as though they have family still in the LDS church.  I know Maddie had wanted to convert to the LDS church and her family was very supportive of that.  I also know that when they first moved to Las Vegas the parents considered putting their kids in an LDS youth group and all the adults and kids had very different opinions.  If anything, the fact that they all had very different views on participating in the LDS youth group shows that they are very different from your typical fundy family as everyone is allowed to have their own opinion and have views that contradict their spouse's or parents'.  

[Coconut Flan]

Quote

I don't remember exactly where I saw that. It may have been The Principle Tumblr. I'll post if I come across it again. 

Mr. Google did not find anything there on them being excommunicated.

[SweetFellowshipper]

All of their adult children, men and women, have expressed the intention to be monogamous. It's never been a problem. 

Re: Rand Paul, yes, Kody's views are douchey, although Kody doesn't seem to have an issue with Mariah's love of Bernie, which she publicly regularly states. I would assume all the wives vote differently from each other, but a variety of opinions seems fine in their family. However, can you imagine the Duggars or Bateses supporting Rand Paul? On their spectrum he's basically a godless liberal. (I know he has abhorrent, immoral views and Joshie took photos with him, but he has very different views from the Duggar types on drugs, police, and even a very few LGBT rights and immigration issues). I also get the sense that Kody is the most conservative family member politically. Janelle and Christine and their kids have publicly Tweeted about LGBT rights and marriage equality. Meri and Robyn seem more conservative, especially Robyn. It's not like the Duggars where they magically agree on every issue as dictated by Daddy. Mariah has publicly challenged her dad's views and Aspyn has been involved in women's rights issues and gotten her mom involved too. 

They've regularly gone against their church's views. I have heard they were excommunicated as well. 

 

[SilverBeach]

On 5/10/2016 at 4:25 AM, Pretzel said:

After all, the Browns are way less dangerous people. 

Kdouche supports Trump. All Trump supporters are dangerous as far as I am concerned. I gave kudos to Mariah for feeling the Bern.

Are the Duggars, Bateseses, or Browns worse? They all have misogynistic beliefs and practices. They all try to make their lives appear to be better than they really are. They are all dishonest in serious ways. So it's six of one half a dozen of the other. None of them could win the "who's better" contest, especially with the noxious patriarchs and questionable beliefs that all these families have.

[SilverBeach]

On 5/10/2016 at 10:04 AM, Natalie22 said:

I don't think most therapists will point-blank tell you you are wrong.  In my experience they try and help lead you to realize this on your own.  Also, Meri had said the therapist was coming over for the entire day to work with them.  I don't think the 15 minutes we saw is representative of their entire session.  Like I said before, this also seemed like the first time they broached this subject as a group.  Often the first time something comes up, no one delves completely into everything;  it's often a process of looking at different angles at multiple times.  Trying to cover everything in one session would be overwhelming and probably counterproductive.  

I didn't mean point blank tell them they were wrong, or to cover everything in one counseling session.  I meant starting to engage in the therapeutic process leading to self-understanding. I understand the process having gone through it myself. This denial of an affair is kind of a big deal for the Browns with respect to the catfish issue they are presently in group therapy for, this time. I would think it would be addressed sooner than later. Plus, there are so many issues among the Brown adults that no way in Hades could everything be covered at once!

Real therapy really shouldn't be televised anyway, in my opinion. I would have preferred that their family therapy not be made into entertainment, because so much of what is said is not for public consumption, and honesty is essential if therapy is to have a chance of working. What was shown on the show for those few minutes is probably meaningless, now that I think about it.

Much of what we snark about is based on the small percentage of these families lives that is televised. It could be said that what we see is not representative of their entire life. Yet we talk about them anyway, based on what they choose to reveal on television and other publically available sources.

[CoveredInBees]

Re: the therapist (not watched the show BTW just catching up on here)

Is the therapist pro polygamy? Surely they must be, otherwise they would be guiding Meri into a greater sense of self worth where she can be equal to a man and not just one of his chattels.

Can you be a real therapist and be pro polygamy? or is it one of those prayer closet therapists?

[Natalie22]

1 hour ago, CoveredInBees said:

Re: the therapist (not watched the show BTW just catching up on here)

Is the therapist pro polygamy? Surely they must be, otherwise they would be guiding Meri into a greater sense of self worth where she can be equal to a man and not just one of his chattels.

Can you be a real therapist and be pro polygamy? or is it one of those prayer closet therapists?

I don't know anything about their therapist specifically, but I am sure there must be therapists out there that work with people outside of traditional family structures.  I don't think it's a matter of being pro anything but trying to work with the family to resolve issues, create better communication, and through doing that, either lead people to deciding they want to stay together or that they want to leave.  It's probably just a more entangled version of normal couple's counselling .

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

I didn't mean point blank tell them they were wrong, or to cover everything in one counseling session.  I meant starting to engage in the therapeutic process leading to self-understanding. I understand the process having gone through it myself. This denial of an affair is kind of a big deal for the Browns with respect to the catfish issue they are presently in group therapy for, this time. I would think it would be addressed sooner than later. Plus, there are so many issues among the Brown adults that no way in Hades could everything be covered at once!

Real therapy really shouldn't be televised anyway, in my opinion. I would have preferred that their family therapy not be made into entertainment, because so much of what is said is not for public consumption, and honesty is essential if therapy is to have a chance of working. What was shown on the show for those few minutes is probably meaningless, now that I think about it.

Much of what we snark about is based on the small percentage of these families lives that is televised. It could be said that what we see is not representative of their entire life. Yet we talk about them anyway, based on what they choose to reveal on television and other publically available sources.

 Well, only one episode has aired and we've only seen their first therapy session after the catfish issue came out.  Perhaps they also do most of their therapy behind closed doors and only show snippets that they don't mind the public knowing.  We know that they've done this sort of therapy before they even had a tv show, so I am sure that they know how to work with a therapist. 

Like I said, I just think it's unfair to say that issue wasn't addressed when, as you mentioned, we've seen only a small part of their therapy session.  I, too, have been to therapy and there are many things that I have avoided or glossed over in several sessions before actually addressing them.  I am sure that Meri was having a hard enough time admitting so many mistakes she's made to everyone and apologizing for them and that to force the issue of emotional cheating would a) be completely overwhelming to her and might cause her to shut down, and b ) it may be an issue that Kody and Meri would prefer to address in their own sessions, rather than ones focusing on all of the adults.

[nelliebelle1197]

9 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

As with the Duggars and the Bateses, I get the impression that there is a lot about the Browns and their beliefs that TLC isn't showing us. Unlike the Duggars and the Bateses, who are quite open about their ATI beliefs and stump for Gothard whenever they can, the Browns' beliefs are harder to pin down. The AUB purposely try to keep a low profile, presumably because of the bad reputation polygamy has, and it doesn't seem like they like visitors. This is a description of a visit a complete outsider made to an AUB church:

http://52weeks52churches.blogspot.com/2014/05/my-surreal-visit-to-apostolic-united.html

 

The Browns seem "better" than the Duggars and the Bateses simply because they aren't trying to "save America" and convert the world to AUBism or whatever they believe now, and seem to allow their children personal freedom. At the same time, we don't know exactly what they Browns are teaching their kids, aside from some vague notions about "modesty," which could mean anything. More than the Duggar and Bates shows, SW focuses on the relationships between the adults, whereas the kids are just kind of "there." Consequently, it is harder to gauge how polygamy affects the kids on a personal level. 

Some questions I would like to have answered about the Sister Wives crew:

1. What are your opinions of black people? Do you think black men should be allowed to have the priesthood?

2. Is a wrong for woman to want to be the only wife in a relationship? Is a monogamous family "less blessed" than a polygamous one?

3. Do you believe in the Adam-God doctrine?

4. Do you believe in blood atonement?

5. How do you view Parley Pratt and the Danites?

6. What are your opinions of the mainstream LDS church?

7. If "family is forever" in the Celestial Kingdom, what are the benefits of having a polygamous household on earth where the wives don't get along, and to have that dysfunction continue in the afterlife?

The Batesesessse and Duggars are open with their beliefs? Have you been keeping up with the latest iteration of the Bates? And when have the Duggars ever gone on record or given an interview saying they are either quiverfull or connected with IBLP? It is all sugarcoated pablum, more sugar coated than the Browns ever were.

As to the blood atonement question, I have done a ton of reading on FLDS and I have never heard of AUB practicing blood atonement. In fact, I am not coming up with any sect other than the LeBarons and possibly Warren Jeffs who have practiced or condoned blood atonement since the early LDS. I don't think the questions you put up there would be questions the Browns would not answer, tbh. They are not hard questions and the Browns are not FLDS or from one of the more closed groups. Do you watch the show?

ETA: as someone upthread noted, the Browns HAVE addressed the LDS issue- the kids attended LDS youth groups in Vegas.

[Grimalkin]

2 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

I don't know anything about their therapist specifically, but I am sure there must be therapists out there that work with people outside of traditional family structures.  I don't think it's a matter of being pro anything but trying to work with the family to resolve issues, create better communication, and through doing that, either lead people to deciding they want to stay together or that they want to leave.  It's probably just a more entangled version of normal couple's counselling .

 Well, only one episode has aired and we've only seen their first therapy session after the catfish issue came out.  Perhaps they also do most of their therapy behind closed doors and only show snippets that they don't mind the public knowing.  We know that they've done this sort of therapy before they even had a tv show, so I am sure that they know how to work with a therapist. 

Like I said, I just think it's unfair to say that issue wasn't addressed when, as you mentioned, we've seen only a small part of their therapy session.  I, too, have been to therapy and there are many things that I have avoided or glossed over in several sessions before actually addressing them.  I am sure that Meri was having a hard enough time admitting so many mistakes she's made to everyone and apologizing for them and that to force the issue of emotional cheating would a) be completely overwhelming to her and might cause her to shut down, and b ) it may be an issue that Kody and Meri would prefer to address in their own sessions, rather than ones focusing on all of the adults.

     Yes to this. A good therapist would not show any judgment toward their polygamy, what good would it do to admonish them? dometimes a relationship has to be established before you get to the guys of a situation.

[Cleopatra7]

10 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

The Batesesessse and Duggars are open with their beliefs? Have you been keeping up with the latest iteration of the Bates? And when have the Duggars ever gone on record or given an interview saying they are either quiverfull or connected with IBLP? It is all sugarcoated pablum, more sugar coated than the Browns ever were.

As to the blood atonement question, I have done a ton of reading on FLDS and I have never heard of AUB practicing blood atonement. In fact, I am not coming up with any sect other than the LeBarons and possibly Warren Jeffs who have practiced or condoned blood atonement since the early LDS. I don't think the questions you put up there would be questions the Browns would not answer, tbh. They are not hard questions and the Browns are not FLDS or from one of the more closed groups. Do you watch the show?

ETA: as someone upthread noted, the Browns HAVE addressed the LDS issue- the kids attended LDS youth groups in Vegas.

When I mean that the Duggars and the Bateses are open about being ATI is that you see them at ATI events and shilling ATI products and services. The shows themselves are vague about the specifics, but anyone who knows how to Google can find out about the Gothard connection; it's just that most people don't think critically about what they see, which is why so many people remain ignorant of the Gothardism lurking behind the supposed "wholesomeness." Even on TWoP during the earliest specials, the more astute viewers had figured out that the Duggars were Gothardites and shilling for their "Bible teacher" but the heavy handed mods prevented detailed discussion because Gothard himself never appeared on 19KAC.

Similarly, SW was also begun as a front group of sorts, intended to change people's minds about polygamy and show that it wasn't all about underage marriages and compounds. Except if you look at some of the SW posts on the Politics RU Principle blog, it becomes quite clear that the SW crew isn't that far removed from that brand of polygamy; all the wives are related to people in the more extreme sects like the FLDS and the LeBaron family. They can't be as innocent of the darker side of Mormon polygamy as they seem on the show. The AUB says it wants to "purify" the mainstream LDS Church, so it doesn't surprise me that the Brown kids would be involved at least socially in that world. If nothing else, the Browns may feel like they're putting forth a good example of polygamy done right, which may influence the mainstream LDS Church to reconsider its stance on the issue.

[nelliebelle1197]

@Cleopatra7 I see what you are saying with the Bateseses and Duggars. I am a survivor of the Bates Leg Hump Wars so get my hackles moving towards the sky easily when it comes to the airheaded twits known as the Bateseeeeeses.

I actually think the Browns had the idea of changing the collective public minds, yes, BUT if I recall correctly, there was more to it than that- I think there was an actual lawsuit of some sort going on when the show started. I think the persecuted flight to Vegas was when they lost the page on that one. Christine had some sort of impact litigation going on that was meant to force the state of Utah to accept polygamy and I just cannot remember the details. Moving to Vegas blunted any real impact that could have had and the change of residence may have actually harmed their original mission. Anyone else recall??

I feel started they out with a mission but some screw turned when they decided to buy into TLC's Vegas deal. Robyn, the SW with the fewest brain cells, instead of furthering their agenda, became the thing that made the whole dynamic shift and led to their clown status. I do truly believe there was an agenda there, but the TLC money and those godawful houses got in the way.

Make sense?

[SilverBeach]

2 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

I don't know anything about their therapist specifically, but I am sure there must be therapists out there that work with people outside of traditional family structures.  I don't think it's a matter of being pro anything but trying to work with the family to resolve issues, create better communication, and through doing that, either lead people to deciding they want to stay together or that they want to leave.  It's probably just a more entangled version of normal couple's counselling .

 Well, only one episode has aired and we've only seen their first therapy session after the catfish issue came out.  Perhaps they also do most of their therapy behind closed doors and only show snippets that they don't mind the public knowing.  We know that they've done this sort of therapy before they even had a tv show, so I am sure that they know how to work with a therapist. 

Like I said, I just think it's unfair to say that issue wasn't addressed when, as you mentioned, we've seen only a small part of their therapy session.  I, too, have been to therapy and there are many things that I have avoided or glossed over in several sessions before actually addressing them.  I am sure that Meri was having a hard enough time admitting so many mistakes she's made to everyone and apologizing for them and that to force the issue of emotional cheating would a) be completely overwhelming to her and might cause her to shut down, and b ) it may be an issue that Kody and Meri would prefer to address in their own sessions, rather than ones focusing on all of the adults.

Oh my goodness, we have seen many sessions, Kdouche and Christine took a therapist on their anniversary trip.

I have no idea what has or has not been addressed in the rest of their therapy. I never implied or stated that the issue should be forced, but when Meri herself brought it up, a simple "How about exploring that aspect of this situation" is all I'm talking about.

Talking about myself only, I don't want my therapist to allow me to keep my head up my ass for too long, because I'm looking to change unproductive behavior. Everybody is different though.

I wish them much success in becoming happier and healthier, if but for the sake of the little ones.

 

[Natalie22]

17 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

@Cleopatra7 I see what you are saying with the Bateseses and Duggars. I am a survivor of the Bates Leg Hump Wars so get my hackles moving towards the sky easily when it comes to the airheaded twits known as the Bateseeeeeses.

I actually think the Browns had the idea of changing the collective public minds, yes, BUT if I recall correctly, there was more to it than that- I think there was an actual lawsuit of some sort going on when the show started. I think the persecuted flight to Vegas was when they lost the page on that one. Christine had some sort of impact litigation going on that was meant to force the state of Utah to accept polygamy and I just cannot remember the details. Moving to Vegas blunted any real impact that could have had and the change of residence may have actually harmed their original mission. Anyone else recall??

I feel started they out with a mission but some screw turned when they decided to buy into TLC's Vegas deal. Robyn, the SW with the fewest brain cells, instead of furthering their agenda, became the thing that made the whole dynamic shift and led to their clown status. I do truly believe there was an agenda there, but the TLC money and those godawful houses got in the way.

Make sense?

I believe the lawsuit was a result of the show; after the show aired, state law enforcement announced that they were investigating the Browns.  Utah has/had a law that says that not only can you not be legally married to more than one person, but if you live and/or consider another person to be a spouse, you are still committing bigamy.  As far as I know, no other state has this law, which was created to make it harder to live a polygamist life style.  Personally, I don't know how any state has a right to say whether you consider to be married to more than one person other than your legal spouse without a legal marriage certificate.  I think it's also to remember this law outside of the context of the Browns.  I'm guessing this would be also troubling for any polyamorous families in Utah as well.  

To be perfectly honest, I don't think the law accomplishes what it was meant to and might create a lot more problems.  By investigating a family simply because they have multiple relationships seems to make polygamists try to hide their families and feel that they cannot be open about their life with the community.  I personally see this need for secrecy creating huge issues for individuals who may be in trouble or want to leave.  If you feel like someone is abusing you, but your entire family might be ripped apart, that might be enough to prevent you from coming forward.  There also seems to be a tendency to homeschool children, which, while it can be done well, may also prevent children from getting resources they may need.

[nelliebelle1197]

@Natalie22 I remember that one, but I could have sworn they filed something BEFORE that. Need to sleep but now must look!

Okay.  Here it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Buhman

It was filed just a few months AFTER the 1st ep aired. Okay, I am thinking what I was remembering is that there were stories popping up that this suit was a planned action long before the show. I read that several places.

[DaisyD]

9 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Mr. Google did not find anything there on them being excommunicated.

The only thing I could find was that they are no longer welcome in their ward (AUB apparently still calls them wards). So, while they may or may not have been excommunicated (I doubt google would have that info. These people are incredibly private), they were essentially kicked out of their particular church. (As with anything polygamy related, this info comes from people who are in the same circles because these things aren't exactly published) 

[Coconut Flan]

Thanks.  Yes, the not being published part is what made me wonder.  Do you remember the time period or where the post was about them not being welcome in the ward?

[ScreamingIzzy]

I'm not familiar with the F/LDS concept of Blood Atonement. What is it?

[MarblesMom]

@ScreamingIzzy here is the Wiki info on it.  I also have not read up on it, but here it is:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement