Bates Family Part 13: Like Lipstick on a Pig

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, crazysnark said:

I'm not stupid nor ignorant. I HAVE read the last few pages and know very well that people in ATI wear pants. It's not just about pants tho, obviously.  I have yet to see Alyssa "keep sweet" since getting married. In fact, she calls people out when they call her immodest, vain, or too thin. I have seen how uncomfortable she is around her family. They annoy her and she isn't very shy about it. That being said, when people say Alyssa is making baby steps, we aren't just looking at her clothing. Maybe if you "read more then a few pages back" you would know this.  Keep reaching hun

 

I don't think I am the one "reaching", hun. So where is the family discomfort? I have not seen it. What I see is someone who  is happy not be in 24 hour chaos and whose million teen sisters get on her nerves and reacting to people who don't know her on instagram making assumptions about her.

Michael, Alyssa and Erin shouldered a massive amount of child rearing responsibilities as children themselves.  Of course they are all three happy to be out of that house! They can even remember a time when Kelly had a manageable number of kids!

When Alyssa got engaged, a lot of people on here criticized her for being a brainless robot. That ticked me off and I even posted a defense of her- I thought a 19 year old certainly had the right to get married and the intelligence to make her own choices.

@crazysnark edited to add that I don't mean this to be hostile - you have made loads of reasonable, thoughtful posts in the time it took me to type this out. I think a lot of people think of Gothard stuff as a type of religion or denomination, and talk about it as if it is a monolith. His guidelines are practiced differently by different people, so what may seem like a moving away is just a shift to another style.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, HereticHick said:

Me too-- I think its Skintimate brand.

So very very disturbing.

It is Skinitmate.  I recognized it right away - it's Raspberry Rain.  My husband bought it on accident once.

I use the skin therapy kind in the light pink can.  And now you officially know too much about me, too.

Seriously this is the shit that bothers me...it's the opposite of modest.  I'm no fundy and I expect my kids to have consensual and mutually respectful sex lives that I never want to know about in any detail whatsoever.

And I'm sure my kids have figured out I've had sex a couple of times in my life...at least as many times as they have siblings +1.  I am equally sure celebrating that fact by decorating our bed and baskets of romantic accouterments would cause them all to pour bleach in their minds eye because...yuck.

So let's see...I've always been open with my kids about sex, at age appropriate levels.  Spoken with all of them in depth about consent, protection, relationships...respect for themselves and for their partners.  They know the mechanics they knows it's important to know their own bodies.   As tweens I talked to them about feelings they would experience and that there is no shame...it's natural and normal...and it's why we have locks on the doors because everyone needs some privacy sometimes.  A lot of natural and normal activities your family doesn't want to accidentally see...capiche?

I talked to them about the risks of getting your ideas about sex from porn because it's about as real as pro-wrestling.  

When they were younger I warned them that their bodies will be ready for sex long before their brains are.

I talked to them about birth control and to make sure they are taking care of things because sometimes people lie.  And it's up to them not to become parents until they are financially independent.  But if, God forbid, something didn't go according to plan tell me right away and I'll be there for them.  

I talked to them about never doing a damn thing they don't want to do and it's impossible to owe anyone physical affection.  I talked to them about not taking advantage of someone's love for you if you don't reciprocate and that any impairment = no consent.

What I didn't do was invite them into my sex life by proxy by making them feel it was any of their business.  

What I did not do is insert myself into their relationships as adults as if their bodies are mine to control.

But my daughter and I do wear pants, and she's been known to sport a swimsuit that covers less than a parka...and when my kids date they don't need to grab a sibling for a chaperon...nor do I read their text messages or screen their phone calls.

But we're the immodest ones?  Got it.  

 

[Snarkle]

44 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

My spiritual gift test wasn't conclusive and I was told I probably had the gift of mercy. Since mercies were supposed to like to pray, I'm not sure how accurate that was. 

Spiritual gift test?  Is that literally a written or verbal test?  How many classifications of gifts are there?

[crazysnark]

1 minute ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I don't think I am the one "reaching", hun. So where is the family discomfort? I have not seen it. What I see is someone who  is happy not be in 24 hour chaos and whose million teen sisters get on her nerves and reacting to people who don't know her on instagram making assumptions about her.

Michael, Alyssa and Erin shouldered a massive amount of child rearing responsibilities as children themselves.  Of course they are all three happy to be out of that house! They can even remember a time when Kelly had a manageable number of kids!

When Alyssa got engaged, a lot of people on here criticized her for being a brainless robot. That ticked me off and I even posted a defense of her- I thought a 19 year old certainly had the right to get married and the intelligence to make her own choices.

 

From the clips on the up website, any time she is shown she looks highly annoyed and is very short with everyone kind of like how I am around my fundie/light family. 

[nelliebelle1197]

3 minutes ago, Snarkle said:

Spiritual gift test?  Is that literally a written or verbal test?  How many classifications of gifts are there?

Is it me or does a lot of these seem like Scientology?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, nelliebelle1197 said:

Is it me or does a lot of these seem like Scientology?

I just want to know if there is an online quiz  I can take - kind of like which Harry Potter house would you be sorted into, or which Golden Girl are you.

Because I haven't wasted enough time today.

 

[TShirtsLongSkirts]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I just want to know if there is an online quiz  I can take - kind of like which Harry Potter house would you be sorted into, or which Golden Girl are you.

Because I haven't wasted enough time today.

 

Yes, I would love this!!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

From the clips on the up website, any time she is shown she looks highly annoyed and is very short with everyone kind of like how I am around my fundie/light family. 

So?  You could say the same about me in any video footage ever...and a good 60% of my real life which has zero to do with how I feel about religion or how I was raised.  It's called being easily annoyed and having a resting bitch face.

[nelliebelle1197]

5 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I just want to know if there is an online quiz  I can take - kind of like which Harry Potter house would you be sorted into, or which Golden Girl are you.

Because I haven't wasted enough time today.

 

I have a major campaign analysis to do yet here I am. Someone is working this weekend.

[THERetroGamerNY]

You need far more than a stupid Instagram account to understand these people. Links have been given. Recovering Grace. Homeschoolers Anon. Read that shit.

Almost everything that they say and do is carefully thought out and presented, even down to the custom Gothard vocabulary. The Duggars themselves have openly admitted that they regard their show as a ministry - I have zero doubts that the Bates also regard their show as a ministry. They want you to sympathize with them, find them appealing, and support them.

[Ali]

15 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I just want to know if there is an online quiz  I can take - kind of like which Harry Potter house would you be sorted into, or which Golden Girl are you.

Because I haven't wasted enough time today.

 

I have taken written tests before and there are probably some online. I am sure that the test I took was a lot different than @formergothardite mentioned because Gothard's definition of a prophet is nothing like I was ever taught or what is in the bible.

 

[formergothardite]

16 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

It was the first steps for me. Once I started questioning my parents rules I started questioning their religion. The rules and the religion seem to be linked. I am 23 and was 19/20 when I started to do the exact same things Alyssa did/does, which is why i have such hope for her. 

Only time can tell what is going to happen. None of the changes she has made are in complete opposition to the core fundie beliefs she was raised with. She might keep questioning or she might be quiet happy with her nice clothes and six kids and keep all the rest of the awful beliefs she was taught growing up. None  of us know. We only see the very tiny sliver of a heavily edited social media life, so it is impossible for us to know if she has questioned her core fundie beliefs. 

13 minutes ago, Snarkle said:

Spiritual gift test?  Is that literally a written or verbal test?  How many classifications of gifts are there?

I"m pretty sure it was verbal, but that was a lifetime ago, so I don't really remember all the details. When I got to EXCEL one of the first things I was asked was what was my spiritual gift and I didn't know(they were shocked and horrified) so I was promptly given the test. If I remember correctly you were asked about a various situations and how you would handle them and you were scored somehow. Anyone else remember? It wasn't solidly in one category and the person giving it decided I had the gift of mercy. There were seven categories of gifts. I don't remember them all. 

[Snarkle]

I DVR BUB, and last night watched it after @VelociRapture's recap so I could see it for myself.  My teen son was headed to bed and came in to say goodnight just as the opening credits launched.  (He knows I watch the show and rolls his eyes, because he could never imagine being One of Them.)  As that annoyingly catchy theme song starts, my son (an only child) starts jumping up and down, and it takes me a sec to realize he's mimicking the opening where the kids are all jumping/flipping.   At that moment I am glad he is not being raised in such a cult, and is maturing enough to make his own decisions, including going to college across the country if he so chooses, without a chaperone, and free to study what he wants, and date who he wants.

[apple1]

6 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I"m pretty sure it was verbal, but that was a lifetime ago, so I don't really remember all the details.

It was presented to me in written form - and just like everything Gothard, the names Gothard - IBLP - ATI were scrubbed. The church leader who gave these out never used the name Gothard (or any of the other associated acronyms) at all. It was only much later that I found out the actual source.

I suspect that the written form of it came from some materials that had been given out in some "advanced" level seminar for the proven "true believers".

Just my experience.

[formergothardite]

15 minutes ago, apple1 said:

It was presented to me in written form - and just like everything Gothard, the names Gothard - IBLP - ATI were scrubbed. The church leader who gave these out never used the name Gothard (or any of the other associated acronyms) at all. It was only much later that I found out the actual source.

I suspect that the written form of it came from some materials that had been given out in some "advanced" level seminar for the proven "true believers".

Just my experience.

You are correct, it seems like it came from the Advanced Seminar.

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/11/spiritual-gifts/

Quote

In the Advanced Training Institute (ATI), your spiritual gift often became part of your identity. “I am a mercy,” or “I am a prophet,” became commonplace statements which people used to identify and explain themselves. I still vividly remember encountering Mr. Gothard’s teachings on spiritual gifts in the Advanced Seminar.

And this is how he came up with the test:

Quote

The list he created came by having people in a meeting group together based on what gift they thought they had and then come up with a list of characteristics/abuses they all agree on. So, not only are his categories of gifts arbitrary and inconsistent with Scripture, the characteristics/abuses are not even determined scripturally.

 

[crazysnark]

33 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

So?  You could say the same about me in any video footage ever...and a good 60% of my real life which has zero to do with how I feel about religion or how I was raised.  It's called being easily annoyed and having a resting bitch face.

Well it's not only that. It's also everything else I mentioned previously. Also, if she is for real about only wanting 6 kids then she is totally ditching the quiverfull ideology, which is a huge step. I wish people would stop picking one thing I say and pinning that as my only reason for thinking Alyssa is making huge strides. Also when John said he wants however many Alyssa wants was very telling. It points to the fact (not proves) that they have a more equal marriage then most ATI couples have. 

[choralcrusader8613]

@formergothardite, thanks for the link. Will read it when I have time to digest it.

[formergothardite]

2 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

Well it's not only that. It's also everything else I mentioned previously. Also, if she is for real about only wanting 6 kids then she is totally ditching the quiverfull ideology, which is a huge step. I wish people would stop picking one thing I say and pinning that as my only reason for thinking Alyssa is making huge strides. Also when John said he wants however many Alyssa wants was very telling. It points to the fact (not proves) that they have a more equal marriage then most ATI couples have. 

All of these things, though,  are still very compatible with most of the core fundie beliefs she was raised with. Is she taking steps into becoming less fundie or into becoming just another kind of fundie? It seems like her current beliefs probably line up a great deal with John's family's beliefs and they are still very IBLP and fundie. 

[Palimpsest]

42 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

From the clips on the up website, any time she is shown she looks highly annoyed and is very short with everyone kind of like how I am around my fundie/light family. 

So you are identifying with her and that is why you feel so optimistic with so little evidence.  I find that rather sad because I'm afraid you will be very disappointed if her "changes" are limited to her dress choices.

Really, everyone here sincerely wants Alyssa (or any Bates child/adult) to cut and run from the cult.  We are just trying to point out that you are not being very realistic in your optimism.

Let me introduce you to Cynthia Jeub.  She is a survivor around your age and is so much more interesting than Alyssa Bates.  Cynthia really earned our praise and has rewarded our optimism.  http://cynthiajeub.com/

 

[crazysnark]

54 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I don't think I am the one "reaching", hun. So where is the family discomfort? I have not seen it. What I see is someone who  is happy not be in 24 hour chaos and whose million teen sisters get on her nerves and reacting to people who don't know her on instagram making assumptions about her.

Michael, Alyssa and Erin shouldered a massive amount of child rearing responsibilities as children themselves.  Of course they are all three happy to be out of that house! They can even remember a time when Kelly had a manageable number of kids!

When Alyssa got engaged, a lot of people on here criticized her for being a brainless robot. That ticked me off and I even posted a defense of her- I thought a 19 year old certainly had the right to get married and the intelligence to make her own choices.

@crazysnark edited to add that I don't mean this to be hostile - you have made loads of reasonable, thoughtful posts in the time it took me to type this out. I think a lot of people think of Gothard stuff as a type of religion or denomination, and talk about it as if it is a monolith. His guidelines are practiced differently by different people, so what may seem like a moving away is just a shift to another style.

No problem at all. I'll be a bitch if someone is rude to me but I don't have hard feelings towards you or anyone else for that matter. I'm not a sensitive soul, so it's all good

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

But standing up against people being mean to her on the internet really isn't a huge sign that she is less fundie. In IBLP there is a big thing about spiritual gifts. People with the spiritual gift of prophecy were known to be blunt, in your face, sassy and would stand up for themselves. From what I have seen, I wouldn't be surprised that she was branded a prophet and so this attitude that she is going to stand up to trolls on the internet is something that could easily in IBLP be seen as just her being a prophet. 
 

My spiritual gift test wasn't conclusive and I was told I probably had the gift of mercy. Since mercies were supposed to like to pray, I'm not sure how accurate that was. 

I'd put money on @nelliebelle1197 taking that test and being told she had the gift of prophesy! 

Probably the gift of mercy is the default group.  When in doubt - pray some more!  Gah!

[THERetroGamerNY]

Limiting your "quiver" to six doesn't indicate to me a dumping of an entire ideology. My own mother wanted a ton of kids, but cancer and other issues thankfully stopped her at just us 3. The entire rest of the damage was still fully present.

Again, I don't buy into this "baby steps" idea. I don't see it represented among survivors.

Also, it's important to remember that "quiverfull" is a secular term coined by a certain individual, and what exactly that entails can vary greatly among fundie families.

She could very well identity with having a "fruitful" marriage with a "quiver full of six".

The Bates vary a lot, externally, than the Duggars. Same core ideology is still there though.

[VelociRapture]

Found this doing a quick Google search. If anyone lurking or commenting is interested, this provides a really basic and quick rundown of why some of us are so vocal about our views on this family:

http://defamer.gawker.com/the-bates-family-is-cable-tvs-new-duggars-and-theyre-ju-1706997724

This article gives a brief explanation of the lawsuit filed against IBLP Board Members - including Dr. Stephen Paine (Chad's father) abd Gil Bates (Douchey Be Thy Name.)

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/basic-life-failures-fundamentalist-ministry-faces-sex-abuse-lawsuit

36 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

Well it's not only that. It's also everything else I mentioned previously. Also, if she is for real about only wanting 6 kids then she is totally ditching the quiverfull ideology, which is a huge step. I wish people would stop picking one thing I say and pinning that as my only reason for thinking Alyssa is making huge strides. Also when John said he wants however many Alyssa wants was very telling. It points to the fact (not proves) that they have a more equal marriage then most ATI couples have. 

If I remember correctly, Alyssa's husband is one of six children. So it's really not that off for her to state she wants that many - and remember she said that's what she wants... she said nothing about what she would be willing to do to make that happen or whether it would actually be possible. She has no obligation to discuss any use of contraception of course - it's a very personal subject and should only be discussed if the person wants to talk about it. I just don't think we should immediately jump to the conclusion that she's rebelling against that specific teaching based off a few quotes. It's possible, but not guaranteed.

[infooverload]

Is anyone here familiar with the recovering from religion hot line? After reading some of your posts I was thinking of the times I have heard their organization mentioned on various podcasts I listen to.

[crazysnark]

3 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Found this doing a quick Google search. If anyone lurking or commenting is interested, this provides a really basic and quick rundown of why some of us are so vocal about our views on this family:

http://defamer.gawker.com/the-bates-family-is-cable-tvs-new-duggars-and-theyre-ju-1706997724

This article gives a brief explanation of the lawsuit filed against IBLP Board Members - including Dr. Stephen Paine (Chad's father) abd Gil Bates (Douchey Be Thy Name.)

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/basic-life-failures-fundamentalist-ministry-faces-sex-abuse-lawsuit

If I remember correctly, Alyssa's husband is one of six children. So it's really not that off for her to state she wants that many - and remember she said that's what she wants... she said nothing about what she would be willing to do to make that happen or whether it would actually be possible. She has no obligation to discuss any use of contraception of course - it's a very personal subject and should only be discussed if the person wants to talk about it. I just don't think we should immediately jump to the conclusion that she's rebelling against that specific teaching based off a few quotes. It's possible, but not guaranteed.

Yes I agree, I jut thought it was refreshing to see an actual number and not "however many God gives" bullshit