Jessa, Ben, and Spurgeon part 4

[DuggarWatch]

9 minutes ago, scribble said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they pursued an older child adoption.... it would give them a great headstart at creating "buddies" to take over all the duties they don't feel like doing.

By the time Jessa and Ben have been married for two years, Ben will be 21 years old.  Arkansas law is that the parent must be at least ten years older than the adopted child.  Foreign adoption requirements are often higher than that.  To adopt from El Salvador, for example, the adopting parent must be at least 15 years older than the child.

[gustava]

If they do a private adoption, do they have to undergo a home study?

[DuggarWatch]

6 minutes ago, gustava said:

If they do a private adoption, do they have to undergo a home study?

Yes.  Every adoption in Arkansas has to go through the court system and be in compliance with Arkansas law.  The home study is done before adoption and there are several more home studies during and after the adoption process.

[Bad Wolf]

Aside from the age factor, older foster children come with a lot of issues. They've been removed from their homes for abuse or neglect, and have probably bounced around the foster system. I don't think either Jessa or Ben has the maturity to deal with this. In addition, they will still have baby Spurge who will need a lot of attention.

[twinmama]

20 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

@Mercer, what a great post!

Nia Vardalos wrote a book a adopting older kids called Instant Mom after she and her husband adopted a little girl from the California foster care system.  Nia would agree though that there is little instant about the adoption process. 

I just finished reading her book! It was really great, I cried several times and could relate so much to a lot of it (though our infertility story turned out differently than hers). Highly recommend. It also made me think about possibly adopting from foster care when my kids are a bit older (since I'd want to keep birth order and there are more older kids needing families than kids younger than mine).

[quiverofdoubt]

3 hours ago, scribble said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they pursued an older child adoption.... it would give them a great headstart at creating "buddies" to take over all the duties they don't feel like doing.

This makes me so incredibly sad. I really hope that's not the case. The last thing a foster kid/older orphaned child needs is to became a mini duggar slave.  The damage they do to their own offspring is bad enough, but to treat a kid whose been through god knows what, and really could use some serious therapy and mothering and all kinds of specific needs met, like a little jesus/god slave/mini mommy..... I just can't. 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

Yikes.

I just finished (skim) watching the last episode and Bin is a walking human example of "be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it all......." 

He got everything he wanted but it's clearly not all it was cracked up to be. He's clearly over his life, over the cameras, over the show, over his wife and sick of the baby inconveniencing his wannabe rapping preacher career. 

Yikes. 

I almost feel sorry for him (emphasis on almost). 

[FleeJanaFree]

19 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Aside from the age factor, older foster children come with a lot of issues. They've been removed from their homes for abuse or neglect, and have probably bounced around the foster system. I don't think either Jessa or Ben has the maturity to deal with this. In addition, they will still have baby Spurge who will need a lot of attention.

Also with this cult it really helps to brainwash from birth. I can't see an older child from the outside world adhering to their rigorous rules well. I highly doubt they'll go for an older heathen child. But then I doubt an adoption will happen, ever, period.

[anotherone]

20 hours ago, scribble said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they pursued an older child adoption.... it would give them a great headstart at creating "buddies" to take over all the duties they don't feel like doing.

If the kid is an older kid, can they say no? Like when they realize what kind of family they might get stuck with

[DuggarWatch]

48 minutes ago, anotherone said:

If the kid is an older kid, can they say no? Like when they realize what kind of family they might get stuck with

In Arkansas, a child age 10 or older must consent to the adoption, unless, in the child’s best interests, the court dispenses with Consent.  Ben isn't old enough to adopt a child over the age of ten.

[older than allosaurs]

1 hour ago, FleeJanaFree said:

Also with this cult it really helps to brainwash from birth. I can't see an older child from the outside world adhering to their rigorous rules well. I highly doubt they'll go for an older heathen child. But then I doubt an adoption will happen, ever, period.

I think this is one reason for the endless stream of fundie older-child adoption horror stories of abuse. Already traumatized and bewildered children are expected to follow lots of draconion and pointless rules because God.  When they don't, the parents double down on the little sinners instead of re-evaluating their priorities.

[GreenTea]

Honestly I would be very surprised if Jessa and Ben adopted an older child from the USA foster care system. (Even though it would be interesting to watch the adoption process of an older child from foster care. Interesting, not good in this case.) People like them only want the newborn babies. They think it's saving the baby from abortion - even though there is a LONG waiting list for healthy, white newborn babies. As others have said it's easier to brainwash little kids into their religious cult. An older child might have developed independent thought! Oh my!

My big question is that in my adoption research at least one parent has to have a stable job and income. Jessa (of course) is going to be a stay-at-home mother. Ben does nothing that I can see. He is clueless. Ben isn't even working towards his goals! Becoming the next famous rapping TV preacher isn't going to happen dude. 

If Ben is planning to go to preacher school or whatever why doesn't TLC show that? The boring episodes where they put in pot lights and buy used cars is getting old quick. Why not show some reality on the "reality TV" show?         

[DuggarWatch]

37 minutes ago, GreenTea said:

Honestly I would be very surprised if Jessa and Ben adopted an older child from the USA foster care system. (Even though it would be interesting to watch the adoption process of an older child from foster care. Interesting, not good in this case.) People like them only want the newborn babies. They think it's saving the baby from abortion - even though there is a LONG waiting list for healthy, white newborn babies. As others have said it's easier to brainwash little kids into their religious cult. An older child might have developed independent thought! Oh my!

My big question is that in my adoption research at least one parent has to have a stable job and income. Jessa (of course) is going to be a stay-at-home mother. Ben does nothing that I can see. He is clueless. Ben isn't even working towards his goals! Becoming the next famous rapping TV preacher isn't going to happen dude. 

Ben replied to someone on Facebook who called him out for not having a job. He replied that he does have a job doing "remodeling/renovation and lawn care/landscaping."  And, of course, on Ben's Facebook he bills himself as "a writer."  

Given the on-again-off-again status of TLC income, I doubt that their payment for reality TV is considered stable income.  Adopting parents must demonstrate stable income. 

[Mercer]

I really can't see the Seewalds adopting from foster care.

For one thing, I don't think they'd be willing to tolerate the confidentiality requirements. You can't share images of or identifying information about a foster child on TV or in a magazine, and most jurisdictions also place limits on social media postings. They would have to go dark media-wise until the adoption was finalized, which usually takes at least six months and can take significantly longer. I can't even imagine the Seewalds being willing to do that. We saw how quickly they tried to claw their way back into the spotlight even after what I'm sure was a traumatic experience of the molestation becoming public.

From the department's end, I highly doubt they would consider the Seewalds qualified at this particular time in their lives. They're inexperienced parents who are still adjusting to the major life changes of getting married and having a newborn shortly following. They're very young. They do not seem particularly open to learning alternative strategies for coping with parenting issues. (And that is crucial when dealing with foster kids, because traumatized foster/adopted children can't be parented the same way as birth children.) It would be a major red flag that they want to add an adopted child as soon as possible after Spurgeon hits the target age, rather than a more wise strategy of taking time to make sure they're ready. It would also be a significant concern if they were not willing to commit to delaying having another biological child until at least after their new adoptee was settled in.

I also don't think that their living situation would be seen as stable enough. Neither of them are employed or have any work history other than doing chores for Jim Bob in exchange for being fully supported. I assume the show income would count for now (though I don't know for sure since the issue of reality show income hasn't arisen in any case I've personally dealt with,) but they would need some sort of plan for if that fell through, and "I want to get people to pay me to preach" wouldn't really cut it. I also think it would be a concern that they're dependent for their housing as well as their income.

Normally I think it's great when people stretch their comfort zone and learn to become excellent foster or foster-adopt parents, but with the Seewalds I just think it would be too much of a stretch and I don't think they have the ability to do what's best for a foster child. Maybe when they grow up a little.

They can purpose to adopt all they want, but if the department doesn't consider them a suitable placement, it isn't going to happen.

[socalrules]

Forget the age and income issue. That's a given. The problem is that neither Jessa or Ben seem to be the type of people to give fig about anyone else, probably not even each other to an extent. It takes a special type of person to be an an adoptive parent. You have to have a level of compassion and patience that neither have. I cannot see either of them understanding that adoptive kids sometimes need a little more understanding. What a Duggar may see as a child than needs to be trained, another may understand the child is a product of their environment/past experiences and needs a parent who will utilize every resource they can to help the child feel safe and secure, including real counseling, occupational therapy, etc. It may be adapting to the child rather than the child adapting to the new home.

One of the major problems in the Gothard world is that parents are making sacrifices for their children, it's quite the opposite. It's the kids who get substandard educations, lose their childhoods early, have all spirit/imagination beaten out of them and are expected to be mini parents to their own siblings. No way can any of them give adopted children the care they need when they don't give it to their bio kids. I also don't for a minute believe that Jessa and Ben won't use every opportunity to remind the kids that they are adopted, less than Spruge and his bio sibs and that they should be great full for being adopted since no one else wants them. 

[Mercer]

Frankly, foster kids would eat Jessa and Ben alive. I can't even imagine how they would handle the type of situations that are commonplace with traumatized children. At best they wouldn't have the tools to even know where to begin, and at worst if they attempted to parent the way the Duggars parented, they would harm the kids and end up in legal trouble themselves.

These kids are not a cute little Orphan Annie who will be grateful for a family and just need some parental love and Jesus to get them to be obedient little Duggarlings. Foster children are by definition in care because something bad happened. Kids normally react to that type of trauma by acting out.

I can't imagine how Jessa and Ben would handle a child who is aggressive toward them, hits the baby, displays sexualized behavior, lies, steals, hoards food, urinates or defecates inappropriately, destroys property, tantrums for hours, or swears like a sailor, etc. etc. Not all foster kids will do all of these things, obviously, but it would be a rare child who didn't come with some level of negative behavior. These behaviors can be overcome, but it takes patience, willingness to learn new parenting strategies, and a thick enough skin to react with support rather than shock.

I just can't see Jessa and Ben being those people... not at this stage of life, with how sheltered they are and how much they choose to continue sheltering themselves. Like I said above, maybe once they've grown up a little. For now, I hope they are realistic enough to understand what adopting a foster child would mean, and honest enough to admit they aren't ready.

[countressrascal]

It takes about 3-5 yrs to adopt out of the foster care system (Arizona). All of the things that I am saying are true in Arizona-foster care parents (single or married) must be 25 yrs of age, if they are married they must be married for at least 3 yrs no naturally born children under 2 yrs of age unless you are signing up for temporary drug baby care. The interview process is long, they must have a psych evaluation, go to parenting classes, cultural sensitivity training, if you have strong religion affiliations you have take another class on religious sensitivity. Living situation must meet a certain standard no more than three children under 16 of the same sex in one room, must have 2 bathrooms and all the common stuff. If you rent you must show that you are stability, not moving every year. I can't remember if the Duggar's are anti-vax or not but if you are a foster care parent there is no choice in that matter plus if you have school age children they have be enrolled in public, private or charter school-no home schooling. 

Majority of international adoption agencies have been shut down because of corruption, so it might be a wish of their's but I don't see it happening.

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, GreenTea said:

If Ben  is planning to go to preacher school or whatever why doesn't TLC show that? The boring episodes where they put in pot lights and buy used cars is getting old quick. Why not show some reality on the "reality TV" show?         

I believe Ben announced that he is taking online classes through Moody Bible Institute to finish his (bachelor's) degree.  Presumably he is majoring in something preacherlike.

The options are BS in Ministry Leadership, BS in Theological Studies, or BS in Theology and Cultural Studies . There is also a BS in Biblical Studies and various associate degrees and certificates.

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, DuggarWatch said:

Ben replied to someone on Facebook who called him out for not having a job. He replied that he does have a job doing "remodeling/renovation and lawn care/landscaping."  And, of course, on Ben's Facebook he bills himself as "a writer."  . 

To work at various things is not the same as having a job.  Especially when your fil is your employer.  But TLC could follow him around doing some of the work-- or studying for his alleged online classes and degree.

[16strong]

On 3/27/2016 at 0:29 AM, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Yikes.

I just finished (skim) watching the last episode and Bin is a walking human example of "be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it all......." 

He got everything he wanted but it's clearly not all it was cracked up to be. He's clearly over his life, over the cameras, over the show, over his wife and sick of the baby inconveniencing his wannabe rapping preacher career. 

Yikes. 

I almost feel sorry for him (emphasis on almost). 

Smuggar V.2.0?

[LawsonBatesEgo]

5 minutes ago, 16strong said:

Smuggar V.2.0?

Probably.

Except hopefully minus the huge public cheating scandal. Even Jessa, for all her smugness and marrying Bin for the wrong reasons, doesn't deserve that level of public humiliation. 

[Four is Enough]

12 hours ago, Mercer said:

Frankly, foster kids would eat Jessa and Ben alive. I can't even imagine how they would handle the type of situations that are commonplace with traumatized children. At best they wouldn't have the tools to even know where to begin, and at worst if they attempted to parent the way the Duggars parented, they would harm the kids and end up in legal trouble themselves.

These kids are not a cute little Orphan Annie who will be grateful for a family and just need some parental love and Jesus to get them to be obedient little Duggarlings. Foster children are by definition in care because something bad happened. Kids normally react to that type of trauma by acting out.

I can't imagine how Jessa and Ben would handle a child who is aggressive toward them, hits the baby, displays sexualized behavior, lies, steals, hoards food, urinates or defecates inappropriately, destroys property, tantrums for hours, or swears like a sailor, etc. etc. Not all foster kids will do all of these things, obviously, but it would be a rare child who didn't come with some level of negative behavior. These behaviors can be overcome, but it takes patience, willingness to learn new parenting strategies, and a thick enough skin to react with support rather than shock.

I just can't see Jessa and Ben being those people... not at this stage of life, with how sheltered they are and how much they choose to continue sheltering themselves. Like I said above, maybe once they've grown up a little. For now, I hope they are realistic enough to understand what adopting a foster child would mean, and honest enough to admit they aren't ready.

LIKE a thousand times. When we brought Three and Four into our home, first as foster children, before we adopted them, we were nearly 50 and we thought we knew what we were getting into.  We'd adopted One and Two as infants.. Three was 6, Four was 5. (One was 10 and Two was 7)

That was two years of complete and utter exhaustion and "WTF did we do?" They did basically everything that Mercer said. Hoarded food. Acted out. Swore. Cried for no reason. Then they'd turn around and stick to us like barnacles. They stole. Screamed. The usual, "You're not my mother or father" stuff. Came into our room at night and looked at us. Didn't try to get into bed, just stood there. Not only that, but they were incredibly (and for a large part, still are) connected to one another. Their bond is unbelievably strong. Them against us strong. We were exhausted and wondering if the commmitment we'd made was going to work. 

We've been through it with all our kids, and at this end, (Four is now 19) I can say that it takes a tremendous amount of determination to be a foster/adoptive parent of just about any child, but especially an "older" one. I do not think the determination that Benessa have is for anything but molding children into mini versions of themselves. Basically, I'm here to say that even with an infant adoption, they do not turn out like clones of the parents, nor should the parents try to do so.

[2manyKidzzz]

8 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

LIKE a thousand times. When we brought Three and Four into our home, first as foster children, before we adopted them, we were nearly 50 and we thought we knew what we were getting into.  We'd adopted One and Two as infants.. Three was 6, Four was 5. (One was 10 and Two was 7)

That was two years of complete and utter exhaustion and "WTF did we do?" They did basically everything that Mercer said. Hoarded food. Acted out. Swore. Cried for no reason. Then they'd turn around and stick to us like barnacles. They stole. Screamed. The usual, "You're not my mother or father" stuff. Came into our room at night and looked at us. Didn't try to get into bed, just stood there. Not only that, but they were incredibly (and for a large part, still are) connected to one another. Their bond is unbelievably strong. Them against us strong. We were exhausted and wondering if the commmitment we'd made was going to work. 

We've been through it with all our kids, and at this end, (Four is now 19) I can say that it takes a tremendous amount of determination to be a foster/adoptive parent of just about any child, but especially an "older" one. I do not think the determination that Benessa have is for anything but molding children into mini versions of themselves. Basically, I'm here to say that even with an infant adoption, they do not turn out like clones of the parents, nor should the parents try to do so.

 What you have done here is very impressive. Hats off to you and Mr. Four and the Fours. 

[Bad Wolf]

@Mercer @Four is Enough Very well put. The chances of Jessa getting a baby are slim, unless a mother specifically requests the Duggars. Babies usually go to couples who are unable to have biological children. If Bin and Jessa think that an older child will be grateful for being adopted, they're in for a rude awakening. Aside from everything already mentioned, foster kids often have a sense of entitlement. The world, and foster parents in particular, owe them for all the crap they've endured.

[SassyPants]

15 hours ago, Mercer said:

I really can't see the Seewalds adopting from foster care.

For one thing, I don't think they'd be willing to tolerate the confidentiality requirements. You can't share images of or identifying information about a foster child on TV or in a magazine, and most jurisdictions also place limits on social media postings. They would have to go dark media-wise until the adoption was finalized, which usually takes at least six months and can take significantly longer. I can't even imagine the Seewalds being willing to do that. We saw how quickly they tried to claw their way back into the spotlight even after what I'm sure was a traumatic experience of the molestation becoming public.

From the department's end, I highly doubt they would consider the Seewalds qualified at this particular time in their lives. They're inexperienced parents who are still adjusting to the major life changes of getting married and having a newborn shortly following. They're very young. They do not seem particularly open to learning alternative strategies for coping with parenting issues. (And that is crucial when dealing with foster kids, because traumatized foster/adopted children can't be parented the same way as birth children.) It would be a major red flag that they want to add an adopted child as soon as possible after Spurgeon hits the target age, rather than a more wise strategy of taking time to make sure they're ready. It would also be a significant concern if they were not willing to commit to delaying having another biological child until at least after their new adoptee was settled in.

I also don't think that their living situation would be seen as stable enough. Neither of them are employed or have any work history other than doing chores for Jim Bob in exchange for being fully supported. I assume the show income would count for now (though I don't know for sure since the issue of reality show income hasn't arisen in any case I've personally dealt with,) but they would need some sort of plan for if that fell through, and "I want to get people to pay me to preach" wouldn't really cut it. I also think it would be a concern that they're dependent for their housing as well as their income.

Normally I think it's great when people stretch their comfort zone and learn to become excellent foster or foster-adopt parents, but with the Seewalds I just think it would be too much of a stretch and I don't think they have the ability to do what's best for a foster child. Maybe when they grow up a little.

They can purpose to adopt all they want, but if the department doesn't consider them a suitable placement, it isn't going to happen.

Plus, doesn't there need to be a certain square footage and designated number of bedrooms (based on sex of the child/ren)? Is JB going to give Jessa and Ben a bigger home so that they meet all of the adoption criteria?