Counting On Season One

[LawsonBatesEgo]

3 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Anybody in any cult has been discouraged from thinking independently or questioning the party line. Yet, people get out every day. FLDS women have been programmed to the max, without benefit of world travel, the Internet, and other exposure to non-fundy living that Jill has. Yet some of them bravely leave their children and families to escape the abuse. Men leave too. 

They are not "girls"  any more, BTW, grown-ass married women with children are decidedly not girls. I think that referring to them that way (a bad habit on FJ) infantilizes them and makes it easy to not hold them accountable for their continuing support of ATI/IBLP/Gothard, not to mention their homophobia and other hateful beliefs.  Remember, they believe in blanket training and other abusive child rearing methods! Not harmless at all, these "girls", and I make no excuses for them.

I am well aware that the beliefs of ATI/IBLP are toxic and dangerous, but I sometimes think people are a little too quick to judge people (not just the J'Slaves, but second generation fundies in general) for not 'getting out' because others get out of crappy upbringings. I like to sit here and root for a dramatic "Breaking Bates/Duggar" style escape from a fundie family as much as the next person, but I think that it is easy for us to sit here and say they should all just escape without acknowledging why it is not that easy for them.

In many cases, leaving the cult means completely leaving behind your family and in some families, even being disowned by them. Maybe it wouldn't bother some of these kids if their parents didn't want to speak to them again since they hate the way their parents brought them up, but what about the siblings that they love? This is a culture that teaches that your siblings are the only best friends you need. That's not so easy to just run away from. It would be even harder for older girls in big families who essentially raised their younger siblings. If you really hate the way your parents raised you.....do you really want to run away into the sunset and live the toddlers and preschoolers you potty trained and basically raised all alone with them and their toxic beliefs? Can you really bear the thought of never seeing them again. Look at how Callie clinged to Michael when she was getting married.....now imagine that in a situation where you'd maybe never see her again unless she became an adult and run away too and tracked you down because you're not welcome to see her anymore.  Walking away from your family is easier said than done. 

It is easy to say someone like Anna should run away....but she has four children to provide for and no education or work experience to fall back on and a family that wouldn't approve of her running away. What the hell can she do in that situation? OK, she'd probably get help if she asked for it because she is famous.....but what about all the 'non famous Annas' out there? Who helps them? Do they even know where to get help? I can very easily see why women like Anna stay because even if they manage to learn that it is not their fault if they are cheated on or abused, they feel like staying the only way they can provide for their children.

And what about those who want to get an education? Those Clown College degrees are unaccredited so not even worth the paper they are printed on outside the fundie community. I'm not American but I have read that in the states, you often can't get student loans or financial aid if your parents won't sign the forms and their ability to help is taken into consideration for your eligibility even if your parents refuse to give you a cent. So how are these fundies meant to escape and use education to better themselves when their parents refuse to sign off on it out of spite or because they disagree with you being there? 

How can you get out when in some cases, these kids are not even allowed to have a single cent of their own and wouldn't even be able to pay for a cab fare to take them away from home to somewhere else? Where do you even go if you don't have any friends or other family you can turn to? Faith Pennington had her grandmother, I bet MamaJane wouldn't have forced a teenage Alyssa back into the car if she begged to be allowed to stay after a visit because she wanted to go to college.....and maybe if Josie for example wanted out when she was 18, Alyssa would let her come stay with her in Florida and help her go to community college. As much as Amy enjoys the gravy train, she'd probably happily let Joy stay in her spare room to help her get out of the cult. But what about the fundies out there who don't have somewhere to go? Who don't have a family member who'd put themselves on the line for them? What if there isn't a shelter near by or group that can help them? 

These is also all the emotional blackmail that has happened as well with their upbringings that might make them scared to leave. 

I absolutely would love to see more people escape this twisted cult, but I think sometimes, people don't acknowledge the very real barriers that stop people escaping cults and fundamentalist backgrounds and saying 'well, if so-and-so manages, so can you' isn't really helpful. 

It is the same way that I get really angry when people say 'why didn't she just leave' to women who are victims of domestic violence and abusive spouses.....it fails to acknowledge the very real barriers that make it difficult for people to leave these situations. It is victim blaming and I don't like it. 

[SilverBeach]

Not quick to judge. I have been following the Duggars since the beginning over ten years ago. 

In any case, It's not about judging or not judging, that doesn't matter, I am not a leghumper (not saying you are!) and judging in one form or another is what we do here.  The fact is, leaving a cult can be done, but at a cost that takes strength of character that none of the Duggars have shown so far.

YMMV and probably does and that's perfectly fine. I refuse to engage in adult Duggar apologetics in any way, shape, or form.

 

[season of life]

Hey, does anyone else think John-David lost some weight? He looks thinner in the show promos than he did before.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

I'm not a leg humper, but I find victim blaming to be an extremely damaging and counter productive thing in all situations. In this case, I find it quite troubling when it is directed at young women who have been indoctrinated to be "submissive" and denied access to both the education and the wider community that could have assisted them in creating a different life for themselves. 

 

 

[SilverBeach]

BTW, I was in a cult and I study cult dynamics as a hobby. I never implied or stated it was easy, it's hard as hell, but not impossible to get out.

Understanding how they may have arrived at the point they are at now, yet holding them responsible for their adult decisions is not judging, in my opinion. A battered woman who does not protect her children will be "judged" by me too, because that is reprehensible behavior and my sympathy is with the defenseless children. Same with the Duggar, I feel for the babies and Mkids. But if their parents choose the same old same old, the cycle will never end.

YMMV, as I said before, but adult Duggar apologetics, explicit or implied, really frosts my cupcake. To each her own, not trying to persuade anyone to my way of thinking, and not going to be swayed either. I stand by every word I have posted.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

I personally dislike it being implied that I am a "Duggar Apologist" for acknowledging the reasons that leaving behind their background is immensely difficult for those raised in ATI/IBLP. It is not impossible, but due to their upbringing and the lack of resources at the disposal of people in this situation, it may feel impossible to them. 

[Mothership]

4 hours ago, nst said:

Izzy looking cute. Big messy kitchen. Messy bedroom, and messy guest bedroom.  Hangs clothes on clothesline to dry.

Does that family ever make a bed?  Mattress on floor, fitted sheet, pillow--looks just like the boys' room.

Also, Izzy is getting pretty big to be comfortable in a pack and play.

I get it: You're in a "dangerous third world country", but all that grifting should have bought a bed frame, some regular bedding and a full size crib.

 

[SilverBeach]

14 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I personally dislike it being implied that I am a "Duggar Apologist" for acknowledging the reasons that leaving behind their background is immensely difficult for those raised in ATI/IBLP. It is not impossible, but due to their upbringing and the lack of resources at the disposal of people in this situation, it may feel impossible to them. 

I personally dislike it being implied that I do not acknowledge their brainwashing, as I have long said that the Duggar are a cult within a cult. What does it matter how they feel, are the adults not to be held accountable? I don't give a rat's behind how they feel, it's what they do that matters. 

I see I am being ganged up on here. @lawsonbatesego, you stated you were angry at my opinion. Why? I do not think that my posts were read carefully. I said several times that YMMV. Yes, defense of the Duggars is apologetics, what do you call it? 

The Duggar threads are always where the shit starts. Imma try to tiptoe out andcgo back to the friendly Rodriguii, but I will defend myself if I have to. Do not dish it out if you can't take it. 

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, StepMonsterInLA said:

Yes but the source is saying not just what has already been filmed but any other TLC Duggar shows. 

They have been promising that. We will see.

My guess is they will show Anna preparing for his return home, talk about the kids reuniting with daddy, etc.  Eventually, if Josh behaves, the special about the Prodigal Son will be an option.  It is all about what they can get the advertisers and public to go for.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

4 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I personally dislike it being implied that I do not acknowledge their brainwashing, as I have long said that the Duggar are a cult within a cult. What does it matter how they feel, are the adults not to be held accountable? I don't give a rat's behind how they feel, it's what they do that matters. 

But you are asking these people to be accountable for not breaking out of their upbringing when they would very likely lose their entire family and don't necessarily have access to the support networks and resources needed to be able to break out. Say the television show didn't exist.....how the hell do those girls get out without any education, any access to money, access to free information on the internet and any friends outside the cult able to help and support them? And is it far to blame them for not having access to these things when they were intentionally withheld from them by their parents?  

[SilverBeach]

Seriously, why do you think that two of Anna's siblings broke away? They were all raised in the crazy. It's not as impossible as you think. 

[Trynn]

Leaving and adjusting to the real world are the hardest things I've ever done.

However, there were people like Jill around me all the time, and I HATED them. I didn't try to punish them for it necessarily, but neither did I go out of my way to make friends, even though I was encouraged to do so.

I feel like... Like when I was still in my religion, girls like Jill drove me crazy and I hated them. I have a very hard time sympathizing with Jill, probably for that reason.

[mausi]

1 hour ago, hollywood said:

Nothing we didn't already know basically. A lot of the typical lines of "we will come out of this fire stronger" BS

They still don't realise their eldest brother and parents are the arsonists. 

[SilverBeach]

2 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

But you are asking these people to be accountable for not breaking out of their upbringing when they would very likely lose their entire family and don't necessarily have access to the support networks and resources needed to be able to break out. Say the television show didn't exist.....how the hell do those girls get out without any education, any access to money, access to free information on the internet and any friends outside the cult able to help and support them? And is it far to blame them for not having access to these things when they were intentionally withheld from them by their parents?  

I hear you, but please read about Flora Jessop and other FLDS who faced violence (blood atonement) and left their CHILDREN to escape, with NOTHING, and no skills for surviving off the compound. She was shunned too. 

I believe that the human spirit can struggle and face adversity and come out of it better. It is not the easiest route to take but it the most rewarding down the line.

Help me understand. Should no one ever expect better from Duggar adults? Do they get a pass on supporting ATI/IBLF/GotHard? Will FJ be snarking on the same stuff ten years from now? I really want to know what you think about this, I am willing to communicate, but not to argue, there has been enough of that lately.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

34 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I personally dislike it being implied that I do not acknowledge their brainwashing, as I have long said that the Duggar are a cult within a cult. What does it matter how they feel, are the adults not to be held accountable? I don't give a rat's behind how they feel, it's what they do that matters. 

I see I am being ganged up on here. @lawsonbatesego, you stated you were angry at my opinion. Why? I do not think that my posts were read carefully. I said several times that YMMV. Yes, defense of the Duggars is apologetics, what do you call it? 

The Duggar threads are always where the shit starts. Imma try to tiptoe out andcgo back to the friendly Rodriguii, but I will defend myself if I have to. Do not dish it out if you can't take it. 

I wasn't aware that defending my opinion was "dishing it out but being unable to take it". All I was saying is that I think you don't acknowledge the reasons why breaking away is not as easily done as said and that taking the "well if X and Y can do it, why can't A and B' is problematic, because different people's experiences will vary within the cult.

Family situations are going to vary wildly within the cult. For example, Gil and Kelly Bates accept Alyssa's right to wear the clothing she does and seem fine with sending younger sisters to go spend time with her. In another family, that could have been cause for her to be disowned and labeled a "stripper" and never allowed to see Carlin, Josie and Katie again because she is a "horrible influence and will make them all pants wearing strippers too". 

It is not being an ATI/IBLP "apologist", but rather an acknowledgment that in these ATI/IBLP families, we see young women who are the victims of being intentionally disempowered by their parents through a lack of education and lack of social network outside of the family and understanding that this means it is not as simple as going "oh, this is all kinda screwed up, I'm going to pack my bags and leave". 

[quiverofdoubt]

I think the biggest reason they haven't left their metaphorical blankets yet is because they have yet to have an influence in their lives that helps them 1) question their upbringing/beliefs 2) realize they really are unhappy and that things could be different.  They haven't had a catalyst to give them that "aha!" moment, where they realize they might want out.  At this point I doubt jill and jessa, and many of the others, are even thinking of "escaping".  The first step has to be to realize that their lifestyle/beliefs are a problem, and the cult they are part of is abusive.  Until then there is no need to go to the effort of trying to escape. They are sticking with their normal/status quo, however miserable they may feel on the inside. They know no different.  Same reason many people with depression don't recognize their symptoms: it's all they know, they don't realize it can be different.

I have trouble holding the above 18's accountable. For one thing, the brain doesn't finish maturing till 21 (women)/24 (men). by then most of these kids are already deeply entrenched in their own marriages and babies.  And the abuse these kids went through- psychological, education, religious, emotional, physical, and for a few sexual, severely stunted their emotional and cognitive development.  Just because a duggar kid reached the legal age of adulthood doesn't undo the damage to their brains and development.  They are severely stunted. I can't really expect them to make decisions like an adult would.  And for Jill and jessa pregnancy is added on top of everything- pregnancy/new motherhood does crazy things to your emotions/hormones and brain.  

They need just the right mix of things to get out, at the exact right times.  They've never had agency in their own lives, i don't expect them to suddenly jump off the blanket the day they turn 18 and say forget this! and make a break. 

[missegeno]

Seriously, why do you think that two of Anna's siblings broke away? They were all raised in the crazy. It's not as impossible as you think. 

Nobody implied that it's impossible, just that it is important to acknowledge the inherent barriers to leaving.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

I hear you, but please read about Flora Jessop and other FLDS who faced violence (blood atonement) and left their CHILDREN to escape, with NOTHING, and no skills for surviving off the compound. She was shunned too. 

I believe that the human spirit can struggle and face adversity and come out of it better. It is not the easiest route to take but it the most rewarding down the line.

Help me understand. Should no one ever expect better from Duggar adults? Do they get a pass on supporting ATI/IBLF/GotHard? Will FJ be snarking on the same stuff ten years from now? I really want to know what you think about this, I am willing to communicate, but not to argue, there has been enough of that lately.

Family is so often all these girls have and I understand their reluctance to completely shun their entire family to leave.

It is very easy for me as a college educated women raised in a secular family with feminist parents and who has many friends from different places in her life to say they should just leave .Even if I didn't get along with my parents, I have the benefit of having been able to form many friendships outside my family and my parents social circles over the years. If I were to leave an abusive or unfaithful relationship/marriage, I have the knowledge of where to go to get help and support and I also have a lot of people, including my parents, who'd have my back. I have an education and work experience and connections to get back on my own feet. I'm not from a culture which would tell me over and over that it is my fault I was cheated on or abused. 

But these girls don't necessarily have that.

And I don't feel right judging them as stupid for feeling that the absence of these things that I take for granted means they can't just pack their bag and leave. I am luckier than these girls. I was not intentionally disempowered and isolated from society by my own parents and denied a decent education. They were. I'm also not the one who could be disowned by her entire family because I had sex with a boy before I married him. They are.

No one is saying it is impossible, but I think to just completely disregard the huge barriers these girls face when it comes to "just leaving" is rather unfair to them, as is to suggest that completely walking away from your own family is "nothing". 

[SilverBeach]

Just now, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I wasn't aware that defending my opinion was "dishing it out but being unable to take it". All I was saying is that I think you don't necessarily acknowledge the reasons breaking away is not as easily said as it is done and that taking the "well if X and Y can do it, why can't A and B' because different people's experiences will vary within the cult. Family situations are going to vary wildly within the cult. For example, Gil and Kelly Bates accept Alyssa's right to wear the clothing she does and seem fine with sending younger sisters to go spend time with her. In another family, that could have been cause for her to be disowned and labeled a "stripper" and never allowed to see Carlin, Josie and Katie again because she is a "horrible influence and will make them all pants wearing strippers too". 

It is not being an ATI/IBLP "apologist", but rather an acknowledgment that in these ATI/IBLP families, we see young women who are the victims of being intentionally disempowered by their parents through a lack of education and lack of social network outside of the family and understanding that this means it is not as simple as going "oh, this is all kinda screwed up, I'm going to pack my bags and leave". 

I have said repeatedly that IT IS NOT EASY TO BREAK AWAY. I was in a cult, I know. I never said anything about just packing bags and leaving. Breaking away is a process. Males, particularly the Duggar ones, are affected too by cult brainwashing.

But I believe in the resiliency of the human spirit, and where there is a will there is a way. The point where the will changes is different for everyone, and I would applaud if Jinger was really freed, and the rest of them too. Maybe it will happen one day. In the meantime, all adult Duggars, male and female, should be held accountable for their harmful beliefs and practices. I will say it again, YMMV. 

 

 

e

 

 

8 minutes ago, missegeno said:

Nobody implied that it's impossible, just that it is important to acknowledge the inherent barriers to leaving.

Why is that important? A quick glance at Quiver Full of Duggars would tell them a lot!

So what comes after acknowledging the inherent barriers to leaving?

[LawsonBatesEgo]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

I have said repeatedly that IT IS NOT EASY TO BREAK AWAY. I was in a cult, I know. I never said anything about just packing bags and leaving. Breaking away is a process. Males, particularly the Duggar ones, are affected too by cult brainwashing.

But I believe in the resiliency of the human spirit, and where there is a will there is a way. The point where the will changes is different for everyone, and I would applaud if Jinger was really freed, and the rest of them too. Maybe it will happen one day. In the meantime, all adult Duggars, male and female, should be held accountable for their harmful beliefs and practices. I will say it again, YMMV. 

 

You say it is not easy, but then heavily judge any girl who can't make it work, or chooses not to make it work BECAUSE she loves her family so much that she choose to give up her freedom as to not lose them as needing to be "accountable" instead of acknowledging that maybe, they were born into a shitty situation and were caught between a rock and a hard place. It is like you expect every one of these girls to be willing to give up their family. 

You also seem to think they should be all held accountable for harmful beliefs and practises when even as adults, they are treated as children by their parents and are not permitted to have any of the real world experiences such as college or simply making friends from outside of the cult, that would help them see that their beliefs are toxic. How are they meant to see how effed up their upbringing is when they kept firmly insulated in it and protected from different ideas, beliefs and practises? 

[SilverBeach]

@LawsonBatesEgo, defending a position is not necessary, this isnt a courtroom. I only go into defense mode when personally attacked. At some point, its fine to agree to disagree.

@LawsonBatesEgo, you persist in referring to the adult Duggars as girls. They are not girls! And what about the adultv"boys" who haven't broken away, are you concerned about them also?

[quiverofdoubt]

 

  I found this interview today.  It's well done.  The young lady interviewed broke away from an abusive/quiverfull/ati family. She was super lucky in that 1) her family didn't enter the cult till she was 12 and 2) her parents allowed her a secular college education.  It was still a challenge to break away.

[SilverBeach]

@LawsonBatesEgo, I never referred to adult Duggar "children" as "stupid". You are reading into what I actually did post, please stop it. I never completely disregarded the barriers to them breaking away, how many time can I say it is not easy? Damn.

I was looking for the beating a dead horse emoticon, can't locate it on my phone.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

18 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

@LawsonBatesEgo, defending a position is not necessary, this isnt a courtroom. I only go into defense mode when personally attacked. At some point, its fine to agree to disagree.

@LawsonBatesEgo, you persist in referring to the adult Duggars as girls. They are not girls! And what about the adultv"boys" who haven't broken away, are you concerned about them also?

Am I concerned about the boys who are also denied the right to education and experiences outside the cult? Absolutely. But this cult is patriarchal, misogynist and sexist at its core and as a result, it is much more difficult for them to escape than it is for boys, hence my greater concern for them. 

[SilverBeach]

26 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

You say it is not easy, but then heavily judge any girl who can't make it work, or chooses not to make it work BECAUSE she loves her family so much that she choose to give up her freedom as to not lose them as needing to be "accountable" instead of acknowledging that maybe, they were born into a shitty situation and were caught between a rock and a hard place. It is like you expect every one of these girls to be willing to give up their family. 

You also seem to think they should be all held accountable for harmful beliefs and practises when even as adults, they are treated as children by their parents and are not permitted to have any of the real world experiences such as college or simply making friends from outside of the cult, that would help them see that their beliefs are toxic. How are they meant to see how effed up their upbringing is when they kept firmly insulated in it and protected from different ideas, beliefs and practises? 

You are still talking about girls. I am talking about adult married women with children.

And how can you judge that I am heavily judging, which in itself is judgemental? Using your logic, all poor folks who were neglected by their parents should be let out of prison because they should not be held accountable. You are saying ALL Duggar adult children should not be held accountable for propagating ATI/IBLP/GotHard? The only one getting a pass from me is Priss because she is special.

Wow, you keep imputing meaning that I did not state at all. Oh well.

I've pretty much said all I can say. You can judge me if you want, but my position is unchanged. You seem to feel really strongly about this, for whatever reason. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

1 hour ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I'm not a leg humper, but I find victim blaming to be an extremely damaging and counter productive thing in all situations. In this case, I find it quite troubling when it is directed at young women who have been indoctrinated to be "submissive" and denied access to both the education and the wider community that could have assisted them in creating a different life for themselves. 

 

 

I never engaged in victim blaming. Where did I say the adult Duggar children were responsible for their fucked up upbringing? You think there is no hope for any of them? I'm not that pessimistic.