Counting On Season One

[LawsonBatesEgo]

You can think what you want, but I ultimately think you show victim blaming tendencies as well as a steadfast determination to hold people "accountable" for being reluctant to completely remove themselves from their family and feeling as if the barriers standing between them and freedom from the cult are insurmountable without education and support. 

Basically, I think you are sitting on your high horse acting "superior" for getting out of a cult and judging those who feel they can't get out or have been indoctrinated to the point they are not even considering it. 

[SilverBeach]

BTW, I have no expectations about anything to do with the Duggars. Once again you put words in my mouth. Sigh...

[nst]

7 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

I think they should take Jessa and Jill out of the title if the show is about all of the older kids. The title makes no sense now.

I think Ben has probably liked Charles Spurgeon for a long time. You can tell he almost hesitates when he says they both were influenced by him. I think it's pretty clear Jessa didn't even know who he was until Ben came along.

It's like they want to jump on someone Obscure and famous enough for the sake of it and for the shock value.

ok my family are now into the preaching of Richard Simmons -the man who changed the world for fitness and I am naming my future dogs Simmons 

it's again eliest on their part. Something to teach us.

i wonder if the tlc crew again asked jessa if she knew Charles Spurgeon before Ben came along would we get silence and a death stare hence the bathroom scene.

[SilverBeach]

14 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

You can think what you want, but I ultimately think you show victim blaming tendencies as well as a steadfast determination to hold people "accountable" for being reluctant to completely remove themselves from their family and feeling as if the barriers standing between them and freedom from the cult are insurmountable without education and support. 

Basically, I think you are sitting on your high horse acting "superior" for getting out of a cult and judging those who feel they can't get out or have been indoctrinated to the point they are not even considering it. 

And I think you are a Duggar apologist, getting all up on your high horse because I'm not sympathetic enough for you. Girl, I am a sixty year old Black woman in America who has fought like hell for everything I have, raised on the south side of Chicago by a divorced mom. Don't tell me shit about "victim blaming tendencies", who the fuck are you to say that?

You sound like a damn leghumper to me, why the hell are you even on FJ? Leghumpers don't think adult Duggars should be responsible for a damn thing.

I was trying to engage in a discussion with you, then you resort to name calling. Why are you so damn invested in the Duggar " girls"? You need to check yourself, starting shit like this, putting words in my mouth, attributing thoughts to me that aren't mine. I want to say fluck you, but imma leave it alone and get out of these crazy ass Duggar threads. You got a whole lot of nerve. You crossed the line here.

25 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Am I concerned about the boys who are also denied the right to education and experiences outside the cult? Absolutely. But this cult is patriarchal, misogynist and sexist at its core and as a result, it is much more difficult for them to escape than it is for boys, hence my greater concern for them. 

Then why haven't any of the adult males left? Maybe they don't want to be shunned either! Don't be sexist.

[ClaraOswin]

13 minutes ago, nst said:

It's like they want to jump on someone Obscure and famous enough for the sake of it and for the shock value.

ok my family are now into the preaching of Richard Simmons -the man who changed the world for fitness and I am naming my future dogs Simmons 

it's again eliest on their part. Something to teach us.

i wonder if the tlc crew again asked jessa if she knew Charles Spurgeon before Ben came along would we get silence and a death stare hence the bathroom scene.

Not gonna lie...I kind of love the name Simmons for a dog.

[hollywood]

As long as the show is on, no one will break away. If the damn show would end, things would quiet down. It would just be an announcement when one had a baby or was engaged/courting. Every stupid thing will be headlines more than ever since Josh. If one even goes to Walmart and someone sees them "Jinger Duggar thrifty shopper!" People and USWeekly are up their ass and JB&Me-chelle are not going to let their brand go downhill while the eyes are all on them.

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

Everything must come to an end.....even the Duggar empire. I wonder how their fame will end. Will they get dismal ratings and fade away from the public? Will the Duggars get tired of being famous and quit the shows and magazine articles?(LOL doubt it), or will another scandal come out? 

If Joshgate 1&2 couldn't end the Duggars, then I wonder what type of scandal would? I read on TMZ today that both TLC and the Duggars agree that Josh shouldn't be in any type of Duggar show because their "brand" needs to be repaired. It's nice to see that the Duggars are in the same range of fame whoring as the Kadashians who also considers themselves a brand rather than a family. 

[Chickenbutt]

I wonder how many people would have been watching ONLY to see Josh and will not tune in if he is not there. His absence will be so conspicuous.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

10 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

And I think you are a Duggar apologist, getting all up on your high horse because I'm not sympathetic enough for you. Girl, I am a sixty year old Black woman in America who has fought like hell for everything I have, raised on the south side of Chicago by a divorced mom. Don't tell me shit about "victim blaming tendencies", who the fuck are you to say that?

You sound like a damn leghumper to me, why the hell are you even on FJ? Leghumpers don't think adult Duggars should be responsible for a damn thing.

I was trying to engage in a discussion with you, then you resort to name calling. Why are you so damn invested in the Duggar " girls"? You need to check yourself, starting shit like this, putting words in my mouth, attributing thoughts to me that aren't mine. I want to say fluck you, but imma leave it alone and get out of these crazy ass Duggar threads. You got a whole lot of nerve. You crossed the line here.

Then why haven't any of the adult males left? Maybe they don't want to be shunned either! Don't be sexist.

I am not going to play the "oppressed Olympics" with you because I have just as much right to an opinion as anyone else does. 

I wasn't aware that showing some understanding and acknowledgement of the reasons that it is difficult for young people who have been denied adequate education and the chance to form networks outside of their cult to just pack up and leave makes someone a "leghumper".

You get up me for calling them "girls" but this cult actually treats them this way. They don't even believe that adolescence is a "thing", the cult treats them as are "girls" who need their "daddy's to protect/care for them" until they are married and then they are women who need their husbands to protect/care for them. And yet you seem to expect them to have the same sense of critical thinking and "Oh, I'm 20, I'm an adult now, time to be super accountable for what I think" that their peers raised outside the cult do? Jana is 26 years old and is still treated in her home and by her family like she's 16 year old girl and is still not granted any of the independence that allows her to develop as an adult. Michael Bates was going on chaperoned dates as a 26 year old. The cult infantilizes them and then you attack them for not being mature. 

Once again, you're showing a failure to acknowledge the reasons they are the way they are and why they don't wake up on their 18th birthdays with all the answers and ready to run away from their families and everything they have ever known. I absolutely agree that ATI/IBLP is completely screwed up. Have I not blamed this stupid cult and GotHard teachings for the way it has denied these kids worthwhile educations and social networks outside their families and critical thinking skills? I think it is completely messed up the way these girls have become completely disempowered and uneducated and seem to have no sense of how talented and capable they are. They all have talents and traits that could see them succeed outside the cult. But have they ever been told that? Do they have a way of getting out without being completely shunned by their entire family? 

I'm not a leg humper. But I also don't think it is fair to blame them entirely for the situation their parents have put them in. I think you can show empathy for their situation and awful upbringing without being leg humpers who think every single thing they do is fantastic. I wasn't aware that hating GotHard meant I have to look down on the girls and young women who have become the victims of his teachings and victims. 

As for the boys.......well, do you really think Jinger or Joy would have been allowed to go off to Tennessee and attend Clown College the way Joe was allowed to do so? Do you think Jana would be allowed to own her own property the way her twin brother is? Perhaps the boys also don't want to be shunned, but given how misogynistic this cult is, and the way it protects people like Josh Duggar, you can not deny it is far better to be a boy in this cult than a girl. 

[lascuba]

3 hours ago, sndral said:

Can someone give me a list of Jill getting her siblings into trouble with her parents? Not her being the mini parent her family dynamic forces all of the older children to be, but examples of her actually causing a near aged sibling to suffer a consequence by her tattling. I ask because I don't recall any instances from when I used to watch the show - but I probably wasn't paying any attention.

I recall Josh alluding to her telling in the awkward last episode before the molestation scandal broke when the couples were talking. The consensus on FJ seemed to be that Jill was the one who told the parents about the molestation (and/or Smugs confessed) which to me is a good thing because it stopped the physical attacks on the girls (Jill included.) So I give her a pass on that one - but other examples?

As far as I recall there was never anything shown on screen, but both Josh and Jana (and maybe JD?) described Jill as a tattle tale since they were little, with Jana trying to put a positive spin on it by saying she liked to help "keep *us* accountable." When the news of the molestations came out people here were quick to assume that that's what they were talking about, but I always thought that was a huge stretch, since it was clear that tattling was a Jill thing to do from long before the molestations happen. 

As far as the kidults upbringing and what that should mean in terms of how we speak about them...I don't think it should, really.  I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, all the realities of cult life have very little to do with what I think about the individuals' public personae. I don't doubt for a minute how hard it is to leave and I don't like comparing them to people who have left, but ultimately, all I'm going to do is judge these tv personalities on the things they say and do and imply filtered through the lens of my own experiences and opinions. The day any of them, even annoying-ass Jill, talks about the pain of their upbringing and cultlife and about whatever regrets they might have, I'll sympathize. But for now, I'm going to take them at their word that they're happy with their lot in life, and I'll mock and point fingers at the ridiculous and horrible stuff they do. I'm not going to infantilize them by saying, "But that's what they've been brainwashed to believe so let's be nice!" every time they fuck up. I don't know these people...they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt from me.  

[Whoosh]

@LawsonBatesEgo I have been following along here and I think everyone acknowledges and hears what you are saying.  The children (male and female) raised in this type of environment are victimized by that upbringing.  No one is denying that.  I think the question is at what point are they held responsible for then moving forward and, as grown women and men, victimizing a whole new generation of children?  Where does it end?  @SilverBeach has made her position on this point clear and is willing to agree to disagree.  I tend to cut adults raised in highly restrictive cult environments a whole lot of slack on a lot of things, but once they start victimizing the next generation, I can no longer hold that position.  Just my opinion.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

But for now, I'm going to take them at their word that they're happy with their lot in life, and I'll mock and point fingers at the ridiculous and horrible stuff they do. I'm not going to infantilize them by saying, "But that's what they've been brainwashed to believe so let's be nice!" every time they fuck up. I don't know these people...they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt from me.  

I'm not saying "oh they have been brainwashed, we have to be nice" about them, I'm more acknowledging the reasons that a full on "Breaking Duggar" is something we are unlikely to see, at least from the older kids and why it is even more difficult for those from ATI/IBLP backgrounds who don't have famous last names. 

While I don't necessarily like them all, I don't think it is leg humping to say something like "Yeah, Jill was a pain in the ass the way she interrupted Jinger and I totally don't blame Joy for eyerolling, but I don't think Jill was trying to be a bitch". Was Jill annoying? Yes. Do I think she was trying to be nasty? No. 

I do think it is possible to give some acknowledgment to how their behaviour might be different if they were raised differently as a point of discussion, like how Jill would have likely seen the tattle-tale in her vigilante justice-ed out of her by her peers like many other child tattlers in public school. But that doesn't mean she isn't annoying because it wasn't. 

3 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

@LawsonBatesEgo I have been following along here and I think everyone acknowledges and hears what you are saying.  The children (male and female) raised in this type of environment are victimized by that upbringing.  No one is denying that.  I think the question is at what point are they held responsible for then moving forward and, as grown women and men, victimizing a whole new generation of children?  Where does it end?  @SilverBeach has made her position on this point clear and is willing to agree to disagree.  I tend to cut adults raised in highly restrictive cult environments a whole lot of slack on a lot of things, but once they start victimizing the next generation, I can no longer hold that position.  Just my opinion.

At this point, I was more defending myself from being labelled a leghumper for acknowledging that the children, even those who are adults now, were victimised by their upbringing. 

But to be constructive about it, I think there needs to be genuine and meaningful support for people to get out so they don't raise another generation in the cult, not just people saying "show some accountability and get out". 

[Whoosh]

9 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I think there needs to be genuine and meaningful support for people to get out so they don't raise another generation in the cult

I am fairly sure that this is where many of us start out these conversations.  People are aware they have been victimized and are aware they need support and that it is a difficult process.  Just something to consider.

[lascuba]

14 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I'm not saying "oh they have been brainwashed, we have to be nice" about them, I'm more acknowledging the reasons that a full on "Breaking Duggar" is something we are unlikely to see, at least from the older kids and why it is even more difficult for those from ATI/IBLP backgrounds who don't have famous last names. 

While I don't necessarily like them all, I don't think it is leg humping to say something like "Yeah, Jill was a pain in the ass the way she interrupted Jinger and I totally don't blame Joy for eyerolling, but I don't think Jill was trying to be a bitch". Was Jill annoying? Yes. Do I think she was trying to be nasty? No. 

I do think it is possible to give some acknowledgment to how their behaviour might be different if they were raised differently as a point of discussion, like how Jill would have likely seen the tattle-tale in her vigilante justice-ed out of her by her peers like many other child tattlers in public school. But that doesn't mean she isn't annoying because it wasn't. 

At this point, I was more defending myself from being labelled a leghumper for acknowledging that the children, even those who are adults now, were victimised by their upbringing. 

But to be constructive about it, I think there needs to be genuine and meaningful support for people to get out so they don't raise another generation in the cult, not just people saying "show some accountability and get out". 

I agree with you there. It's hard enough for people to break from their toxic family even without religion thrown in the mix. I definitely don't expect any of the older Duggars to break away, especially because the money and celebrity factor, I think, makes it damn near impossible for them. If any of them leave it wouldn't just be a reflection on them, they would be bringing shame and public scrutiny to their whole family, and whatever they feel about their lives, I don't doubt that they love their family. 

I don't think you were leghumping at all, by the way. 

[ClaraOswin]

1 hour ago, nst said:

It's like they want to jump on someone Obscure and famous enough for the sake of it and for the shock value.

ok my family are now into the preaching of Richard Simmons -the man who changed the world for fitness and I am naming my future dogs Simmons 

it's again eliest on their part. Something to teach us.

i wonder if the tlc crew again asked jessa if she knew Charles Spurgeon before Ben came along would we get silence and a death stare hence the bathroom scene.

Okay....so Richard Simmons is trending on Facebook right now. Did you know that before you mentioned him?? If not...that's amazing. 

Oddly enough that sort of thing happens with myself and my husband a lot. We'll talk about some random celebrity or movie that we haven't seen forever....and suddenly he/she/it appears on t.v. or in the news a week later or something.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

7 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I agree with you there. It's hard enough for people to break from their toxic family even without religion thrown in the mix. I definitely don't expect any of the older Duggars to break away, especially because the money and celebrity factor, I think, makes it damn near impossible for them. If any of them leave it wouldn't just be a reflection on them, they would be bringing shame and public scrutiny to their whole family, and whatever they feel about their lives, I don't doubt that they love their family. 

I don't think you were leghumping at all, by the way. 

Not only is that why leaving is much harder many thing, it's also why I don't think we'll ever see the "tell all book" so many of us would love to read from one of the older kids. They don't want to hurt their family. Even if they have so many things to say about Boob and J'Chelle and Joshley, I don't think they want to hurt the rest of their family.

Sure, Joy might roll her eyes when Jill interrupts someone yet again. Jana might still deepdown resent Jessa over the Jewelry box and be annoyed she has to fix all the bridesmaids dresses for Jill. Jessa might be annoyed when Jill asks to just take clothes from her stash instead of packing her own bag for DC and Jill might get a it 'ohhh look at you then' when she realises she's kinda just been told odd.....but that doesn't mean they don't care about each other. 

Stuff like that is totally normal between siblings. Siblings will annoy each other and they won't get along 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they don't care about each other and don't want to cause them unnecessary pain/embarrassment or completely abandon them either. 

[Whoosh]

34 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Not only is that why leaving is much harder many thing, it's also why I don't think we'll ever see the "tell all book" so many of us would love to read from one of the older kids. They don't want to hurt their family. Even if they have so many things to say about Boob and J'Chelle and Joshley, I don't think they want to hurt the rest of their family.

Sure, Joy might roll her eyes when Jill interrupts someone yet again. Jana might still deepdown resent Jessa over the Jewelry box and be annoyed she has to fix all the bridesmaids dresses for Jill. Jessa might be annoyed when Jill asks to just take clothes from her stash instead of packing her own bag for DC and Jill might get a it 'ohhh look at you then' when she realises she's kinda just been told odd.....but that doesn't mean they don't care about each other. 

Stuff like that is totally normal between siblings. Siblings will annoy each other and they won't get along 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean they don't care about each other and don't want to cause them unnecessary pain/embarrassment or completely abandon them either. 

Your posts describe a lot of all of this really well and in so many ways you really describe exactly why fundamentalism is so remarkably dangerous.  Just about everything about these fundamentalist belief systems and lifestyles (from the large scale to the small) makes it just incredibly difficult for anyone who is raised within the system to exit regardless of how obvious it is/should be to everyone that the system is harmful or damaging.

[Mercer]

I really don't think the only two options for the Duggar kidults are to continue to do things exactly as they have been in lockstep with their parents or a complete breakaway and shunning. For some other fundamentalist families of various stripes, those are the only options, but the Duggars have the double-edged sword of their self-appointed celebrity status. A lot of things they could do if their lifestyle was more secretive are not going to fly when it's going to end up on the cover of a tabloid. 

The Duggar parents are media-savvy enough that they're going to think about how their decisions are going affect the view their audience has of them, and they've shown they're able to be pretty flexible with how they portray themselves if it's going to make their public image more positive. (See, for example, their recent "it's all about family" more stylish reinvention.) 

I'm sure there are things the kidults could do that would get them cut off, but I just don't buy that they're going to shun Jill for doing an LPN program at the local community college, or Jessa for putting Spurgeon into a Christian school rather than homeschooling when he's older, or John-David for making some outside friends by joining a young people's fellowship at a local evangelical church. They might be dying to, and Gothardism might demand they do so... but ultimately, if they shun their kids for minor steps toward independence, their audience will think they're insane. I don't think they're going to risk, say, Jill giving an interview to People magazine about how she's dead to her family because she wanted to be a real nurse, or Jessa telling the world on GMA that she was cut off for sending her son to a real school. The television show is too important to generate that type of negative publicity over minor "infractions." Acting like a wholesome family is the basis of their paycheck, and Jim Bob and Michelle won't jeopardize that lightly.

The Duggar kidults were definitely significantly held back and stunted by their upbringing, but they're out in the world now. They do have options, not all of which involve dramatically storming away. The fact they aren't making some of these relatively minor lifestyle adjustments tells me they don't really want to, and they're content how they are.

[season of life]

19 Kids and Counting ran for seven years before TLC pulled the plug. Now we have this new show coming, and with courtships and babies, there's plenty of boring, repetitive crap to film. How long can this new show last? As many years as the first one? I still think another scandal will erupt. Families like those have always got some skeletons in the closet.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

On 3/10/2016 at 8:29 AM, 19 cats and counting said:

I can't blame her for wanting to grab the spotlight.  IT was grabbed from her for most of her life and her 'competition' for the spotlight is living abroad.

I think for most of the kids in order to get ANY attention from their parents it took a major feet, from being the "perfect tattle tale child" (Jill) the trouble maker (Josh) emulator (Jessa) the doers, the one who does what ever anyone ask no matter what with out complaint (Jana & John David).  It is hard to ell with Jinger Joe, Si & Joy what their flaws/quirks are. The younger 4 seem a bit more, lost in the shuffle or  we just aren't given a chance to see them with out the thumb of mom or dad on them. 

[Mercer]

My prediction is that the next scandal is going to center on the family finances. I simply do not believe Jim Bob is smart or savvy enough to generate that much wealth without cutting some major corners.

[withaj]

2 hours ago, lascuba said:

As far as I recall there was never anything shown on screen, but both Josh and Jana (and maybe JD?) described Jill as a tattle tale since they were little, with Jana trying to put a positive spin on it by saying she liked to help "keep *us* accountable." When the news of the molestations came out people here were quick to assume that that's what they were talking about, but I always thought that was a huge stretch, since it was clear that tattling was a Jill thing to do from long before the molestations happen. 

Yeah, I don't think there is any video footage of Jill tattling, but it's been mentioned. IIRC, the "All About Jill" episode before her wedding had some THs with the older siblings referencing it. I don't think there were any/many specific anecdotes, though.

[Bad Wolf]

I think it will get cancelled when even the leg humpers get bored. Pretty soon we won't even snark watch, because there's nothing to snark on. They build a tree house. Boring. Jessa has to change diapers, Derick preaches. There's nothing new. Thank goodness for Buzzard who saves us from watching. 

[season of life]

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

My prediction is that the next scandal is going to center on the family finances. I simply do not believe Jim Bob is smart or savvy enough to generate that much wealth without cutting some major corners.

I believe the same. He has too many kids to support and they've had financial issues in the past by failing to pay medical bills.

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, season of life said:

19 Kids and Counting ran for seven years before TLC pulled the plug. Now we have this new show coming, and with courtships and babies, there's plenty of boring, repetitive crap to film. How long can this new show last? As many years as the first one? I still think another scandal will erupt. Families like those have always got some skeletons in the closet.

A scandal, unless it involves JB and Michelle and really shows up the family as frauds, is not necessarily going to get them off TV.  People losing interest is the most likely reason that they will cut the show, and that is more likely to happen if there are no scandals to liven things up.

As you say, they are pretty boring.