Counting On Season One

[JillyO]

I think Faith Pennington and Lydia Jeub are good examples of just HOW difficult it is to leave the cult you were brought up in behind. Both of them are incredibly strong, resilient, intelligent young women who managed to make the initial break and get out. The both have suffered so many forms of abuse at the hands of their parents, and both Faith and Lydia acknowledge this. And yet, they both keep attempting to reestablish a relationship with their parents/families. I don't know if it's because they miss their parents or their siblings (probably both), but I think it really shows strong that pull is and how hard you have to push to make a break. For their own mental health, I wish Faith and Lydia would stay far, far away from their toxic families. But I can't blame them that they don't.

[RosyDaisy]

Jinger will never see a single penny of the money she earns.

[DuggarWatch]

TMZ posted an article yesterday about the Duggar come-back to reality TV.  So far, it has 437 comments (and still counting).  Every single comment is negative.  This is far different from the comments on the Duggar Facebook page.  I wonder if anyone at TLC is checking the online feedback to their decision to revamp the Duggar show.

http://www.tmz.com/2016/03/12/josh-duggar-rehab-no-tlc-shows/

[nst]

13 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

Okay....so Richard Simmons is trending on Facebook right now. Did you know that before you mentioned him?? If not...that's amazing. 

Oddly enough that sort of thing happens with myself and my husband a lot. We'll talk about some random celebrity or movie that we haven't seen forever....and suddenly he/she/it appears on t.v. or in the news a week later or something.

Knew it because of people.com article.

but it was still funny.

off to polo today in the heat

[Yogi]

I was struck by how some of the women appeared to be taking charge, in the promo. Ben's comment about how he was 'informed' that wives don't like it called babysitting - could you imagine Michelle ever saying anything like that to Boob? No way. Jessa totally laid the smackdown and Ben joked about it. To me that is really surprising and encouraging that Jessa has a voice in her marriage to almost chastise Ben. 

And in the brief clip where they were planning the tree house, it was one of the girls who had everyone gathered around and was making  plans. I would almost say she was  instructing men??

[VelociRapture]

5 minutes ago, Yogi said:

I was struck by how some of the women appeared to be taking charge, in the promo. Ben's comment about how he was 'informed' that wives don't like it called babysitting - could you imagine Michelle ever saying anything like that to Boob? No way. Jessa totally laid the smackdown and Ben joked about it. To me that is really surprising and encouraging that Jessa has a voice in her marriage to almost chastise Ben. 

And in the brief clip where they were planning the tree house, it was one of the girls who had everyone gathered around and was making  plans. I would almost say she was  instructing men??

Not sure if it was Jessa laying a smack down or the Seewalds being smart enough to realize people don't like it when dad is referred to as a babysitter - the Dills got blasted on Instagram when Derick said he was babysitting Israel a few months back.

Or, you know, TLC told him to mention that. Because they're just like us now y'all! 

[SilverBeach]

14 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

 

But to be constructive about it, I think there needs to be genuine and meaningful support for people to get out so they don't raise another generation in the cult, not just people saying "show some accountability and get out". 

Those are your words, not mine. How is your commiserating on FJ providing " meaningful support"?

The Duggars are not zombies. I actually think more of them than you do because I believe they could change if they wanted to. One simple Google of ATI/ IBLP/Gothard would supply plenty of information that could spark critical thinking. Not easy, not quick, but doable.

7 hours ago, JillyO said:

I think Faith Pennington and Lydia Jeub are good examples of just HOW difficult it is to leave the cult you were brought up in behind. Both of them are incredibly strong, resilient, intelligent young women who managed to make the initial break and get out. The both have suffered so many forms of abuse at the hands of their parents, and both Faith and Lydia acknowledge this. And yet, they both keep attempting to reestablish a relationship with their parents/families. I don't know if it's because they miss their parents or their siblings (probably both), but I think it really shows strong that pull is and how hard you have to push to make a break. For their own mental health, I wish Faith and Lydia would stay far, far away from their toxic families. But I can't blame them that they don't.

I have never "blamed" anybody. Some children of abusive parents have shown great attachment to those parents. Stockholm Syndromed is a real thing too. I also do not think that cult victims are zombies who have lost their personal agency for all time. I believe human beings are amazing and that the capacity to change and grow is in everyone, no matter how dim that light may be sometime.

[SilverBeach]

15 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I am not going to play the "oppressed Olympics" with you because I have just as much right to an opinion as anyone else does. 

I wasn't aware that showing some understanding and acknowledgement of the reasons that it is difficult for young people who have been denied adequate education and the chance to form networks outside of their cult to just pack up and leave makes someone a "leghumper".

You get up me for calling them "girls" but this cult actually treats them this way. They don't even believe that adolescence is a "thing", the cult treats them as are "girls" who need their "daddy's to protect/care for them" until they are married and then they are women who need their husbands to protect/care for them. And yet you seem to expect them to have the same sense of critical thinking and "Oh, I'm 20, I'm an adult now, time to be super accountable for what I think" that their peers raised outside the cult do? Jana is 26 years old and is still treated in her home and by her family like she's 16 year old girl and is still not granted any of the independence that allows her to develop as an adult. Michael Bates was going on chaperoned dates as a 26 year old. The cult infantilizes them and then you attack them for not being mature. 

Once again, you're showing a failure to acknowledge the reasons they are the way they are and why they don't wake up on their 18th birthdays with all the answers and ready to run away from their families and everything they have ever known. I absolutely agree that ATI/IBLP is completely screwed up. Have I not blamed this stupid cult and GotHard teachings for the way it has denied these kids worthwhile educations and social networks outside their families and critical thinking skills? I think it is completely messed up the way these girls have become completely disempowered and uneducated and seem to have no sense of how talented and capable they are. They all have talents and traits that could see them succeed outside the cult. But have they ever been told that? Do they have a way of getting out without being completely shunned by their entire family? 

I'm not a leg humper. But I also don't think it is fair to blame them entirely for the situation their parents have put them in. I think you can show empathy for their situation and awful upbringing without being leg humpers who think every single thing they do is fantastic. I wasn't aware that hating GotHard meant I have to look down on the girls and young women who have become the victims of his teachings and victims. 

As for the boys.......well, do you really think Jinger or Joy would have been allowed to go off to Tennessee and attend Clown College the way Joe was allowed to do so? Do you think Jana would be allowed to own her own property the way her twin brother is? Perhaps the boys also don't want to be shunned, but given how misogynistic this cult is, and the way it protects people like Josh Duggar, you can not deny it is far better to be a boy in this cult than a girl. 

Wash/rinse/repeat. I HAVE A RIGHT TO MY OPINION ALSO! And what the hell is the opression Olympics? S. T. F. U.

[lascuba]

I don't believe for a second that Jessa has a problem with the word "babysitting" being used for fathers taking care of their children. That's probably how she thinks of it herself. No, what happened was that she/TLC saw the flack Jill and Derrick got for and this is there way of addressing that. This show is going to be full of stuff like that...lying about what they do and believe to contradict the criticisms they've always gotten. 

[SilverBeach]

@LawsonBatesEgo, you go beyond acknowledging the Duggars horrid upbringing as being difficult to overcome, you make it seem like it is damn near impossible. That is where we will forever disagree. And you continually trying to demonize me for holding an opinion different than yours ahows that you have very controlling tendencies. Your excuse making is what makes you a leghumper to me. 

And if you insult me one more time...

@LawsonBatesEgo, your wall of text does not persuade me at all. No reason I should read your crap over and over because you haven't written or understood a damn thing I have posted.

You are such a good, sweet, kind human being because of your bottomless understanding of the Duggar "girls". Happy now?

None of this is personal to me. I don't know why it is so personal to you.

I asked before and I will ask again...if you have no problems with the Duggars, why are you here? The problem extends beyond JB/Michelle/Josh. The " girls" are perpetrating the hate that is ATI/IBLP/GotHard? Is that OK with you? Sure sounds like it. Are you a Drumpf supporter?

 

[Hera]

Re: babysitting. Regardless of how it came about, the fact that it became part of their awareness in this patriarchal society where men are bumbling idiots when it comes to domestics and women are the keepers of home and child that dads  claiming they are "babysitting" is something women should find inappropriate because it implies that it's isn't just as much their job to take care of their kids as it is their wives is interesting to me. It shows that even when they don't realize it, being exposed to broader ideas is seeping into the 2nd generation's consciousness as a result of their quest for reality TV fame. 

I know JB and M were all NO GAYZ! wrt the crew when they first started filming, but does anyone really believe that every single person associated with Counting On's production, direction, crew, make up, wardrobe, etc. is straight? Or Christian? Suppose the girls really like their hairstylist and learn that he is gay? Might it change their minds about some of their beliefs? For people this sheltered, that's how it starts. One small realization at a time. 

[SilverBeach]

@LawsonBatesEgo, you may want to check your own leghumperish tendencies.

[nokidsmom]

9 hours ago, JillyO said:

I think Faith Pennington and Lydia Jeub are good examples of just HOW difficult it is to leave the cult you were brought up in behind. Both of them are incredibly strong, resilient, intelligent young women who managed to make the initial break and get out. The both have suffered so many forms of abuse at the hands of their parents, and both Faith and Lydia acknowledge this. And yet, they both keep attempting to reestablish a relationship with their parents/families. I don't know if it's because they miss their parents or their siblings (probably both), but I think it really shows strong that pull is and how hard you have to push to make a break. For their own mental health, I wish Faith and Lydia would stay far, far away from their toxic families. But I can't blame them that they don't.

IMHO Stockholm Syndrome runs rampant in these families.  It's a very real thing and makes for major ambivalence when people like Lydia and Faith overcome it enough to leave.  They have to struggle to overcome when leaving, then overcome in order to stay gone and yet try to maintain some connection to their families.   It's tough but not impossible.  

The Lydia Jeubs, Faith Penningtons, FLDS escapees like Carolyn Jessop, are just a public face of the many people who do make the break from cults.  My sister lives in an area where there are quite a few ex-FLDS, knows a few of them, the numbers have increased over the last several years.

 

[Cleopatra7]

4 hours ago, DuggarWatch said:

TMZ posted an article yesterday about the Duggar come-back to reality TV.  So far, it has 437 comments (and still counting).  Every single comment is negative.  This is far different from the comments on the Duggar Facebook page.  I wonder if anyone at TLC is checking the online feedback to their decision to revamp the Duggar show.

http://www.tmz.com/2016/03/12/josh-duggar-rehab-no-tlc-shows/

I have the feeling that the Duggars Facebook page is leghumpers city, while TMZ is a more accurate barometer of how most people feel. However, Counting On wont require that many viewers to be profitable to TLC. As long as it averages a million viewers per episode, that should be enough to keep it on the air.

[SilverBeach]

5 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

IMHO Stockholm Syndrome runs rampant in these families.  It's a very real thing and makes for major ambivalence when people like Lydia and Faith overcome it enough to leave.  They have to struggle to overcome when leaving, then overcome in order to stay gone and yet try to maintain some connection to their families.   It's tough but not impossible.  

The Lydia Jeubs, Faith Penningtons, FLDS escapees like Carolyn Jessop, are just a public face of the many people who do make the break from cults.  My sister lives in an area where there are quite a few ex-FLDS, knows a few of them, the numbers have increased over the last several years.

 

 +1000. Despite my love for The Walking Dead, there are no zombies.

[happy atheist]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

@LawsonBatesEgo, you go beyond acknowledging the Duggars horrid upbringing as being difficult to overcome, you make it seem like it is damn near impossible. That is where we will forever disagree. And you continually trying to demonize me for holding an opinion different than yours ahows that you have very controlling tendencies. Your excuse making is what makes you a leghumper to me. 

And if you insult me one more time...

@LawsonBatesEgo, your wall of text does not persuade me at all. No reason I should read your crap over and over because you haven't written or understood a damn thing I have posted.

You are such a good, sweet, kind human being because of your bottomless understanding of the Duggar "girls". Happy now?

None of this is personal to me. I don't know why it is so personal to you.

I asked before and I will ask again...if you have no problems with the Duggars, why are you here? The problem extends beyond JB/Michelle/Josh. The " girls" are perpetrating the hate that is ATI/IBLP/GotHard? Is that OK with you? Sure sounds like it. Are you a Drumpf supporter?

 

I haven't seen any insults, except perhaps your suggestion that someone who disagrees with you must be a Trump supporter.

LBE is allowed to hold a different opinion than you. That is not an insult. S/he is allowed to express that opinion. That also is not an insult.

[JillyO]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I have never "blamed" anybody. Some children of abusive parents have shown great attachment to those parents. Stockholm Syndromed is a real thing too. I also do not think that cult victims are zombies who have lost their personal agency for all time. I believe human beings are amazing and that the capacity to change and grow is in everyone, no matter how dim that light may be sometime.

Good fucking grief, will you get over yourself already? I wasn't even talking to you, I was merely making a point, voicing my opinion, as one does on a discussion forum. I suggest you stop making everything about yourself.

[Whoosh]

I think everyone is quite reactive in this thread right now.  I don't know where it all started, but "leghumper" and "victim blamer" have been tossed around for pages.  I don't think anyone likes to be called a "leghumper" or a "victim blamer".  Perhaps everyone could take a moment.  Peace out.  I personally think everyone has made some good points.

[SilverBeach]

10 minutes ago, JillyO said:

Good fucking grief, will you get over yourself already? I wasn't even talking to you, I was merely making a point, voicing my opinion, as one does on a discussion forum. I suggest you stop making everything about yourself.

I will not accept you talking to me this way. I was quoted, so why would I not think it was about me? Good grief...

[Whoosh]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

I will not accept you talking to me this way. I was quoted, so why would I not think it was about me? Good grief...

I can totally see why you are upset.  This conversation went very poorly and your point was completely lost long ago.  I don't think JillyO meant to say that you were trying to place blame on anyone.  I think the whole thing has just gone off the rails. It is unfortunate.  I do think your continuing to defend yourself is going to make the situation worse, unfortunately.  Just my opinion, of course.

[SilverBeach]

15 minutes ago, happy atheist said:

I haven't seen any insults, except perhaps your suggestion that someone who disagrees with you must be a Trump supporter.

LBE is allowed to hold a different opinion than you. That is not an insult. S/he is allowed to express that opinion. That also is not an insult.

And I am allowed to hold my own opinion also. Please read everything I wrote before chastising me. I said numerous times that we should agree to disagree, what more do you want?

My Trump remark was in direct response to her stating that I was using oppression politics or something like that when I mentioned I was Black. And not it was not a suggestion that anyone who disagrees with me is a trump supporter! Not fair or accurate to say that. Don't know why you are jumping to her defense, but you obviously have not read ALL mybposts, something I was careful to do before commenting on the TRGNY shitstorm.

I showed myself to be cool and rational during the Melissa shitstorm I still am. See if you would not consider it insulting if someone accused you of having victim blaming tendencies, her EXACT words. 

Be fair, HA. Being mischaracterized is a bitch.

10 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I will not accept you talking to me this way. I was quoted, so why would I not think it was about me? Good grief...

I was not making ANYTHING about this about me. I made a post that lbe disagreed with, she came at me personally, and I gave it back TO HER. Not your fight. You don't know me either. 

[SilverBeach]

24 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

I think everyone is quite reactive in this thread right now.  I don't know where it all started, but "leghumper" and "victim blamer" have been tossed around for pages.  I don't think anyone likes to be called a "leghumper" or a "victim blamer".  Perhaps everyone could take a moment.  Peace out.  I personally think everyone has made some good points.

Please go back and see who made the first personal reference. It was not me, but I am not going to take that shit either. 

I NEVER disagreed about the Duggar's lousy cult upbringing or the difficulties of getting out. I expressed confidence that they could do it (difficult is not impossible) and should not be given a pass for continuing to propagate ATI/IBLP/GOTHARD dogma. I thought most if not all FJ members found ATI/IBLP/Gothard reprehensible. Guess I was wrong. 

I am allowed to opine, without a pile on, that none of the Duggars are zombies and at some point must be held accountable for propagating hate, homophobia, and misogyny, whether actively or passively.

[Coconut Flan]

So about that treehouse.....

Did Jana really design it?  Did Ben?  TLC?  How long will it take to construct and how long until they hire an architect to make it safe or it falls down?

[quiverofdoubt]

while risking jumping into the heat here, i do want to give a few thoughts.

(first off, it breaks my heart that these young ladies are repeating the cult cycle with their own children, but i'm not surprised either. They start the pattern of courting/marrying/babies long before they get a chance to really engage with the real world, or even fully develop their critical thinking capacities.  Not that they are allowed to do that at all).

The first step to breaking away is WANTING to break away.  We've seen with other quiverfulls, some born into it, others who opted into at as an adult, struggle to break away and make it.  So why no duggars? 

• compared to most quiverfull families (there are a lot of them) the duggars are very successfull. They've forayed into politics, have a platform with their show to be "witnesses" of their faith. They are wealthy.  Some quiverfull families live in horrible conditions, and most struggle to get by day to day, and to feed everybody.  The duggar's by contrast have homes, large nice ones, i phones, decent clothes, plenty to eat. even if it's tater tots.  Some quiverful families struggle to keep running water in the house.  For the duggars they feel like their faith is serving them well, and delivering on what it promises.
• They may be miserable, brainwashed, unable to feel or express emotions in a healthy way. The women may be abused, treated as objects and baby machines etc. The men are under pressure to have a ton of kids and support them. But it's what they were raised to do. The girls have been drilled to be submissive from practically the womb. They have nothing to gauge their lives by. 
• They really have been very isolated. OK, they travelled. But not with the intent to expose their children to other cultures/ideas and peoples. But instead to spread their own beliefs and faith. Or when tlc pays, as something of a joke. (someone at tlc wanted to see these yokels in foreign countries, and thought it would make great filming material).  The children are never allowed intellectual, open conversations with people outside the cult.  The result is no personal gauge as to normal or healthy.  My parents were abusive in many ways, but because i was rarely hit and never beaten, I didn't get an inkling that something was off until i saw normal interactions between children and parents.  And didn't get the full picture until I had children of my own, and lots and lots of exposure to families of all kinds outside my own.  When i was little i would see beautiful, respectful familial interactions between friends and parents, and thought it was weird or stupid.  Just my personal take.

I see they have no real incentive to leave. The status quo is known and comfortable. Breaking away, doing a tell all, etc, will be an emotional intense and very hard journey. That will involve sacrificing every belief they've ever held.  It's going to take a lot of soul searching. And first they need to want that. They need to see that things can be different, things could be better. It'll take someone from the outside to gently convince them.

[Whoosh]

3 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

So about that treehouse.....

Did Jana really design it?  Did Ben?  TLC?  How long will it take to construct and how long until they hire an architect to make it safe or it falls down?

If it goes anything like constructing TTH did, they will tell us it will be completed by the end of this season, but in reality it will be finished about the time M5 turns 18.  I will be popping my popcorn and tuning in to Buzzard's recaps