Bates Family Part 10

[Whoosh]

2 minutes ago, Imagine20 said:

Did we somehow segue into a Scalia discussion? 

Not that I know of.  I see one post that mentions him and it was mine.  My topic was the Bates v Duggars debate and I used an analogy.

[nastyhobbitses]

5 hours ago, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

As far as truly breaking free, I think it will be the third generation, the grandchildren, who will be the ones to watch. 

(We will be waiting a long time for them to grow up though...) 

I think it's going to be a few of the younger Duggar kids. They're under far less direct "training" than their older siblings because Michelle is too lazy to take care of them. I'm pretty certain that everyone after Johannah was born expressly for the show (and truly, these kids are the closest thing to Truman Burbank that we have). We already know that Alyssa Bates kinda resented being on a reality show since childhood with no say in the matter; I wouldn't put it past Jennifer or Jordyn to eventually come forward and say something similar. And it may be easier for them to when the time for that comes, since by the time they're in their teens/twenties, the brand will likely long be over (likely because of more scandals).

[Iokaste]

17 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

 We already know that Alyssa Bates kinda resented being on a reality show since childhood with no say in the matter; 

Do we? Has she or any of her siblings spoken about that or is it a FJ-theory? We know that Michael Bates doesn't like the limelight, but I don't recal any mention of Alyssa disliking the attention. 

[OnceUponATime]

7 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Jessa is embracing Calvinism, FFS

do you think she actually knows what the difference is? (this is a serious question)

[cranky_kong]

Is there anywhere online I can find episode 6 and now I'm assuming 7 is also out. Everywhere I've looked doesn't have it!

[Casserole]

3 hours ago, Iokaste said:

Do we? Has she or any of her siblings spoken about that or is it a FJ-theory? We know that Michael Bates doesn't like the limelight, but I don't recal any mention of Alyssa disliking the attention. 

 

She said this on instagram in response to a comment: "webster4ever@[redacted] I just find it interesting that you are calling me "vain" and you don't even know me. Just because I grew up in somewhat of a spotlight doesn't mean it was "my choice to be public" as you say or that it gives you a right 2 be rude or hateful. I am just a normal person like everyone else."

 

Does she straight up say she hates the show and resents her parents for making her life public? No, but I'd say that's as close as we'll ever get to hearing her true feelings. 

[Iokaste]

Thank you, @Casserole, I hadn't seen that and she'd never struck me as someone who didn't enjoy filming (which is not bad or "narcissistic" in my book :-) )

She doesn't actually say that she didn't like it, just that it wasn't up to her, which ofcourse is true, but she also did grow up in a culture with a lot of lipservice payed to humility and selfdenial ( we all know that mainly means: "women shut up and serve your fathers/husbands in what ever way he wants"), so I'm not surprised if she or any of them really claims the "oh, I never liked all that attention"-card.

[nelliebelle1197]

3 hours ago, OnceUponATime said:

do you think she actually knows what the difference is? (this is a serious question)

Honestly, I don't think Jessa is inherently smart enough to know how to use a shoe lace.

And I think that is yet another reason why the Bates seem more attractive to some than the Duggars- the Duggars are just kinda stupid, with a couple exceptions. None of Bates are likely even AP high school smart but they are pretty normal in context of smarts. To me it makes them worse than the Duggars- Kelly and Gil have the inherent intelligence to make better decisions and they do not. I don't really thing JimBob and Michelle have much going on upstairs.

[singsingsing]

Yes, Jessa knows what the difference between hardcore Calvinism and her parents' belief system is. That is one thing I can be pretty confident of. She has spoken many times about she and Ben studying the Bible and discussing it, and she's clearly embraced his beliefs. This has nothing to do with intelligence. These people are steeped in the Bible and their parents' religious beliefs and practices from infancy, and believing the 'right' thing is of utmost importance. They definitely know what their beliefs are, how they differ from others', and whether they've changed.

[Whoosh]

We also need to remember that according to the belief system, these female kidults shift from being under the headship of their father to the headship of their husband.  Their father is supposed to carefully screen potential courtship partners to ensure that the candidate has the "right" beliefs and the "right" standards for how a woman should dress, etc.  However, once the transfer of ownership headship is complete, the wife is supposed to submit to the wishes and desires of her husband.  Period.  I obviously don't know exactly how it works in each family, but these young women are not supposed to be expressing their thoughts and opinions on these things necessarily - if their headship tells them to wear X and believe Y, that is what they are supposed to do, right?  

[OnceUponATime]

9 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

They definitely know what their beliefs are, how they differ from others', and whether they've changed.

I also grew up steeped in my parents beliefs. It definitely didn't mean I could recognize all the finer points of theology and how different churches I attended differed. Sometimes they aren't always taught that well, then there is a difference between being able to repeat stuff, and actually understanding the nuances and deeper meaning of it. I'm not joking when I say what was taught in one church about predestination(which they believed in) was taught in a different church who believed in free will. (I went "that isn't free will that's predestination." and was told to shut up because I didn't know what I was talking about)

I'm not sure what the major differences are between Gothardism and Calvinism (is this somewhere?)  so I'm not sure how easy it would be for someone to switch from one to the other.

[Charliemae]

I want to be perfect clear and say that when I discuss the "cult' I am referring to biblical patriarchy.  Which is not limited to Gothard/ATI/IBLP

 

From the wiki on BIBLICAL PATRIARCHY 

"Beliefs

The "Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy" published by Vision Forum advocates such beliefs as

God reveals Himself as masculine, not feminine.

God ordained distinct gender roles for man and woman as part of the created order.

A husband and father is the head of his household, a family leader, provider, and protector.

Male leadership in the home carries over into the church: only men are permitted to hold the ruling office in the church. A God-honoring society will likewise prefer male leadership in civil and other spheres.

Since the woman was created as a helper to her husband, as the bearer of children, and as a “keeper at home”, the God-ordained and proper sphere of dominion for a wife is the household and that which is connected with the home.

God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply” still applies to married couples.

Christian parents must provide their children with a thoroughly Christian education, one that teaches the Bible and a biblical view of God and the world.

Both sons and daughters are under the command of their fathers as long as they are under his roof or otherwise the recipients of his provision and protec

[singsingsing]

47 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

I also grew up steeped in my parents beliefs. It definitely didn't mean I could recognize all the finer points of theology and how different churches I attended differed. Sometimes they aren't always taught that well, then there is a difference between being able to repeat stuff, and actually understanding the nuances and deeper meaning of it. I'm not joking when I say what was taught in one church about predestination(which they believed in) was taught in a different church who believed in free will. (I went "that isn't free will that's predestination." and was told to shut up because I didn't know what I was talking about)

I'm not sure what the major differences are between Gothardism and Calvinism (is this somewhere?)  so I'm not sure how easy it would be for someone to switch from one to the other.

We're not talking about finer points, though. We're talking about the difference between Gothard's special brand of "Christianity" and fundamentalist Calvinist theology. Say what you will about Jessa, but she's never given the impression that she has an intellectual disability. This is one of the more ridiculous claims about a Duggar I've heard, that they just wouldn't notice their own theology or belief system changing in a major way. Come on. She knows.

[OnceUponATime]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

We're not talking about finer points, though. We're talking about the difference between Gothard's special brand of "Christianity" and fundamentalist Calvinist theology. Say what you will about Jessa, but she's never given the impression that she has an intellectual disability. This is one of the more ridiculous claims about a Duggar I've heard, that they just wouldn't notice their own theology or belief system changing in a major way. Come on. She knows.

I have never said nor implied that she has an intellectual disability.
I did ask what are the differences because I don't know (and would like to), and in my experience going to different churches is that not all churches have theological differences that are that obvious at first glance.

What are the major theological differences between Gothard and fundy Calvinism? 

[formergothardite]

The main difference between how Jessa was raised and how she believes now is that she was raised to believe that all people are born with the chance of being saved, Calvinism teaches that people are born predestined for heaven or predestined for hell. This seems minor, but it is actually a pretty big deal. Calvinsim includes other things, but that seems to be the biggest conflict about it among the people I know. I've seen fights over predestination split churches. 

[SassyPants]

13 hours ago, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

As far as truly breaking free, I think it will be the third generation, the grandchildren, who will be the ones to watch. 

(We will be waiting a long time for them to grow up though...) 

Money will force many of them to break free.

They've all known the difference between the economic good and the bad times- Jill might be Ok going back to 3 rice meals a day and frumpers, but the rest? Not seeing it-

[RoseWilder]

@SassyPants : I agree. I suspect that's what happened to Zach. He's old enough to remember life before, when his Dad had a stable job and there were fewer kids. Compare that to his his life after when his Dad grifted and there were tons of kids and probably now a lot of food. Now he has a job with a stable income and benefits.

[refugee]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Yes, Jessa knows what the difference between hardcore Calvinism and her parents' belief system is. That is one thing I can be pretty confident of. She has spoken many times about she and Ben studying the Bible and discussing it, and she's clearly embraced his beliefs. This has nothing to do with intelligence. These people are steeped in the Bible and their parents' religious beliefs and practices from infancy, and believing the 'right' thing is of utmost importance. They definitely know what their beliefs are, how they differ from others', and whether they've changed.

Y'know, it just struck me that the people who influenced us with gothardism (though not ATI) were also pretty "Reformed" in their views, even the charismatic-leaning ones. Calvinism lends itself quite well to control freaks. Everything is under the control of an all-controlling god; there is no element of chance. Gothard's checklist xtianity seems to me, overall, to be a way to impose total control over one's environment (including people--but that's one of the places that the whole house of cards falls down, because people are not programmable robots, but have these pesky things called "minds" whether or not they are able to use them).

When something goes wrong, the calvinist blames god--as in, it was part of His will. When something goes wrong, the gothardist blames sin in the person (or demonic forces? wasn't it gothard who had people burn Cabbage Patch dolls and rock music LPs?), or not having followed the checklist exactly. In either case, the "wrong" is usually some spiritual or superstitious explanation.

And when things are going right, it's all due to the fact of total control.

So, it's not a huge jump from gothard to calvin.

2 hours ago, OnceUponATime said:

I also grew up steeped in my parents beliefs. It definitely didn't mean I could recognize all the finer points of theology and how different churches I attended differed. Sometimes they aren't always taught that well, then there is a difference between being able to repeat stuff, and actually understanding the nuances and deeper meaning of it. I'm not joking when I say what was taught in one church about predestination(which they believed in) was taught in a different church who believed in free will. (I went "that isn't free will that's predestination." and was told to shut up because I didn't know what I was talking about)

I'm not sure what the major differences are between Gothardism and Calvinism (is this somewhere?)  so I'm not sure how easy it would be for someone to switch from one to the other.

Yes! In point of fact, I've heard reports from the church we left that there are women there who've said they don't need to read the bible themselves, they just let the leadership and their headship tell them what it says.

Yes, I'm listening to evil gossip. Never allowed myself to do it while we were in that church, so it's quite interesting to hear it now.

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, refugee said:

Y'know, it just struck me that the people who influenced us with gothardism (though not ATI) were also pretty "Reformed" in their views, even the charismatic-leaning ones. Calvinism lends itself quite well to control freaks. Everything is under the control of an all-controlling god; there is no element of chance. Gothard's checklist xtianity seems to me, overall, to be a way to impose total control over one's environment (including people--but that's one of the places that the whole house of cards falls down, because people are not programmable robots, but have these pesky things called "minds" whether or not they are able to use them).

When something goes wrong, the calvinist blames god--as in, it was part of His will. When something goes wrong, the gothardist blames sin in the person (or demonic forces? wasn't it gothard who had people burn Cabbage Patch dolls and rock music LPs?), or not having followed the checklist exactly. In either case, the "wrong" is usually some spiritual or superstitious explanation.

And when things are going right, it's all due to the fact of total control.

So, it's not a huge jump from gothard to calvin.

I totally agree. It's not a huge jump from Gothard to Calvin at all, which is why I think everyone accepted the Jessa/Ben match. Their beliefs aren't so divergent that they were seen as totally incompatible. But there is a difference, and it would definitely be a noticeable and deliberate change to go from ATI/IBLP/Gothardism to just straight up fundie Calvinism. It's not a great analogy, but it's like if you decided to switch from coffee to tea. They're both hot caffeinated beverages that can be flavoured in various ways. They're pretty similar when it comes down to it, but switching from one to the other is a conscious choice and one you would definitely be aware of.

[Kira]

58 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Money will force many of them to break free.

They've all known the difference between the economic good and the bad times- Jill might be Ok going back to 3 rice meals a day and frumpers, but the rest? Not seeing it-

Did the Duggars really ever have economic bad times?  The Duggars will not have to go back to rice and frumpers. They made(make) a lot of money from TLC and their name will keep them famous(especially the girls). Fame is so different nowadays. I think the Duggars will be fine economically. I know people think that Ben and Derick will never ever ever have "real" jobs again, but I disagree. I think Ben will be in seminary school by the end of the year. Derick will most likely get a job will he and Jill return to the Arkansas. The Duggar boys have some skills that they can use when the fame is gone. 

14 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

I don't see the fundie lite in Jessa and Jill's lives... If anything, Derick and Ben became just like the Duggars. I think the whole 'Bates are better than Duggars' or 'Are you crazy? Duggars are better than Bates' is a bunch of crap, they're just two sides of the same coin.

. It's just strange when people think the Bates minor changes mean something. Most fundies are different from their parents. 

[RoseWilder]

@KiraThe Duggars may be fine financially as far as raising the rest of their kids goes, but they don't have enough money to support all 19 of their children when their grown, along with their spouses and all of their kids. If each Duggar child has a spouse and 19 kids of their own, that's roughly 400 people to support. Even if each child only has 10 kids, that's over 200 people. Sooner or later economic reasons will force some of the kids to get actual jobs working around non-Fundies. Some of them may even GASP have to get job training or a degree of some kind to support their families. 

[refugee]

2 hours ago, Charliemae said:

I want to be perfect clear and say that when I discuss the "cult' I am referring to biblical patriarchy.  Which is not limited to Gothard/ATI/IBLP

 

From the wiki on BIBLICAL PATRIARCHY 

"Beliefs

The "Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy" published by Vision Forum advocates such beliefs as

 

This was incredibly triggering to read. Teen included some of this in the college research paper, so I've read it recently, but it had more impact this morning, perhaps because I've been thinking about this stuff.

I remember reading it in the koolaide days and having a twinge, and stuff the doubts down because I "obviously" didn't understand all the finer points.

It's like Goldie Hawn in that movie Overboard, if you've seen it. I am not saying it's the greatest movie in the world by mentioning it, BTW. Kurt Russell convinces amnesiac Hawn that she's his wife, and spins all these stories to explain inconsistencies (like she was in the Navy, and she was really fat and lost a lot of weight--to explain the huge thrift-store clothing they'd bought for her, and her parents were alcoholics and her mom was dead and her dad was in prison, etc.). Anyhow, she resists at first, but gradually she comes to believe the life he's presented, and there's this scene that stays with me, where she suddenly says something in French, and then she stops herself in surprise, saying, "When did I learn to speak French?" And then she answers herself, "When I was in Paris... but when was I in Paris?" And Russell is sitting there, holding his breath, thinking she's going to start remembering her real life, and she goes on and says, as if saying *of course!*, "Oh, right! When I was in the Navy!" ...and so the charade continues, for awhile longer.

But reading it now, not immersed in the culture, I can *see* so much of the wrongness, and it turns my stomach and makes me want to vomit.

I can understand how the women in the culture swallow it without questioning. It's horrible, and I can only hope they have their eyes opened, like I did, to the lie, and that somehow they are able to give credence to that feeling in their gut that something is very wrong.

[Kira]

19 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

@KiraThe Duggars may be fine financially as far as raising the rest of their kids goes, but they don't have enough money to support all 19 of their children when their grown, along with their spouses and all of their kids. If each Duggar child has a spouse and 19 kids of their own, that's roughly 400 people to support. Even if each child only has 10 kids, that's over 200 people. Sooner or later economic reasons will force some of the kids to get actual jobs working around non-Fundies. Some of them may even GASP have to get job training or a degree of some kind to support their families. 

Why would they have to support all 19 of their kids??? 

Derick has an accounting degree. He is capable of working to support his family

Ben has an associates in business and want to go to seminary school to become a pastor . He can work to support his family.

JD is a has a ton of skills(flying, construction etc..) He was(is?)a constable. He can support his own family in the future

The other boys have real estate and CDL licenses. They also have contruction skills.

I think they'll get "real" jobs". Josh, JD, Ben and Derick have worked around non-fundies. 

At the moment they work for TLC.

 

[RoseWilder]

7 minutes ago, Kira said:

Why would they have to support all 19 of their kids?? 

Derick has an accounting degree. He is capable of working to support his family

Ben has an associate in business and want to go to seminary school to become a pastor. He can work to support his family

JD is a has a ton of skills(flying, construction etc..) He was(is?)a constable. He can support his own family in the future

The other boys have real estate and CDL licenses. They also have contruction skills.

I think they'll get "real" jobs". Josh, Ben and Derick have worked around non-fundies.

 

Derrick has an accounting degree, which he stopped using so he could grift. Ben has a degree that he doesn't use because he's JimBob's yard boy. Who knows what will become of Josh. JD seems to be the only one who actually works at a real job and that was mostly stuff that JimBob set up for him (Duggar Towing.) 

They have the ability to get real jobs, but most of them don't. 

And I was just responding to the part of your post where you said that the Duggars aren't going to have to go back to the days of eating rice and wearing Frumpers because they have money now. My point was that JimBob and Michelle have money now - their children don't. I hope that some of them socked away some of the money they made from having their weddings and births featured on TV - but they're going to have to also have actual jobs at some point when the fame disappears. JimBob probably isn't going to be able to set up businesses for all of his kids. Eventually they won't be able to grift off their D-list fame, and JimBob won't be able to pay them all to be his errand boys. Reality is going to hit at some point but judging by the number of non-working adults they have in their family I would say that it hasn't fully hit just yet.

[Kira]

13 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

Derrick has an accounting degree, which he stopped using so he could grift. Ben has a degree that he doesn't use because he's JimBob's yard boy. Who knows what will become of Josh. JD seems to be the only one who actually works at a real job and that was mostly stuff that JimBob set up for him (Duggar Towing.) 

They have the ability to get real jobs, but most of them don't. 

And I was just responding to the part of your post where you said that the Duggars aren't going to have to go back to the days of eating rice and wearing Frumpers because they have money now. My point was that JimBob and Michelle have money now - their children don't. I hope that some of them socked away some of the money they made from having their weddings and births featured on TV - but they're going to have to also have actual jobs at some point when the fame disappears. JimBob probably isn't going to be able to set up businesses for all of his kids. Eventually they won't be able to grift off their D-list fame, and JimBob won't be able to pay them all to be his errand boys. Reality is going to hit at some point but judging by the number of non-working adults they have in their family I would say that it hasn't fully hit just yet.

Yes, you're right. Ben and Derick can never ever work "real" jobs again, ever. 

Do we even know why Derick lost his job? Was he fired? Ben may be JB's lawn boy , but he did complete his degree. If he was solely relying on TV fame wouldn't he have quit school(like many of us thought he did) He worked for JB and TLC, butc continuedto work toward his degree. 

Ben and Jessa, Jill and Derick, JD, Josiah, Jana, Joseph , Joy Anna and Anna work for TLC. It may not be a "real" job, but they are making money to support themselves and their families..

 

 

I think they'll get real jobs when the fame is gone. I predict Derick will get a new job when they return to Arkansas.