Bates Family Part 10

[WhyNotJulie]

32 minutes ago, sockinshoe said:

Baby steps are important, and even laudable. However, being less IBLP doesn't mean the kids aren't still embroiled in a hideous patriarchal mentality. [...] Pants, premarital kissing, and piano teaching are small things. There's still a lot of evil ideology in those kids, and I don't think we can ignore that. 

Sometimes I think people won't be impressed with any of these fundies as individual people until one of them wears a bikini, renounces their family, childhood, and everything they believe in, shaves off all their hair, co-habitates in a conjugal relationship with a gay/lesbian lover (not married, obviously) and becomes a hardcore outspoken atheist.

[formergothardite]

16 minutes ago, WhyNotJulie said:

Sometimes I think people won't be impressed with any of these fundies as individual people until one of them wears a bikini, renounces their family, childhood, and everything they believe in, shaves off all their hair, co-habitates in a conjugal relationship with a gay/lesbian lover (not married, obviously) and becomes a hardcore outspoken atheist.

Eh, sometimes these folks switch from being one kind of fundie to being another. Look at John Shrader he tossed IBLP and Gothard and still is fundie as hell. I'll snark and point out their fundie beliefs even if they wear pants and watch Winnie the Pooh. 

[sockinshoe]

27 minutes ago, WhyNotJulie said:

Sometimes I think people won't be impressed with any of these fundies as individual people until one of them wears a bikini, renounces their family, childhood, and everything they believe in, shaves off all their hair, co-habitates in a conjugal relationship with a gay/lesbian lover (not married, obviously) and becomes a hardcore outspoken atheist.

I don't expect or demand they do any of this in order to impress me. My point is that we can't say "Oh, look, the Bates' kids are really normal and not fundie. The Bateses are such great parents" when the kids are still entrenched in deeply patriarchal lifestyles. 

[EmainMacha]

When I was in primary school in the 80s corporal punishment was still legal. We started school at 4 and the hitting started early. My primary 3 (6-7yr olds) teacher favoured hitting us with a ruler or making us stand at the window until we started to pass out from the sun. They banned it when I was 7, which was a relief, though by then the damage was done.

I've never held it against my parents for the occasional smack they gave me as they apologised after (not that I condone the smacking). I was never able to get past the institutionalised corporal punishment though and to this day get overly anxious if I make mistakes or forget things at work. I often wonder if the 'lovingly corrected' fundies likewise retain the anxiety of doing 'wrong' and being punished even into adulthood.

[PennySycamore]

About fundies accepting a gay kid:

I can only speak as to what has happened in my own extended family when a child was gay.  One of my uncles by marriage was a fundie Wesleyan and his oldest son unfortunately has taken after his dad in being a fundie Christian.  His daughter is a lesbian who actually turned out to be on my care team after I had a mild stroke a few years ago.  My cousin has not talked to his daughter in 7 or 8 years nor has he has he spoken to his oldest son.  I don't know why that is though.  My mom's youngest sister told me that my cousin's daughter had visited her grandmother (her sister and my aunt) with her partner.  My 90+ year old aunt was fine with the sexual orientation of her granddaughter and both granddaughter and partner were welcome in her house.

Here's Ian McKellen reading Michael Tolliver's coming out letter to his homophobic parents from Tales of the City.  The text is there, too.  It's worth a listen and a read.

Mouse comes out to his folks

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, WhyNotJulie said:

Sometimes I think people won't be impressed with any of these fundies as individual people until one of them wears a bikini, renounces their family, childhood, and everything they believe in, shaves off all their hair, co-habitates in a conjugal relationship with a gay/lesbian lover (not married, obviously) and becomes a hardcore outspoken atheist.

The benchmark for me is BC use or fertility control and education.

These folks do not have the skills needed to support mega families (most couples do not).

Keeping family size to a reasonable number and making sure that everyone is educated would be the biggest indicators to me.

I could not care less about long skirts, long hair or modest swim wear.

[Exjw2015deed]

7 hours ago, vienna said:

Thank you so much for this comment. I could not agree more!

On another note: It sickens me that the Duggars are back on TV.

Do you have any screenshots of this Kelly defending her "inmodest" daughter? I would love to read it.

I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to, but here is a screen shot of Kelly responding to criticism on their blog about Alyssa. It wasn't Instagram, but perhaps this is the example. 

I definitely wouldn't compare her to Mama Weasley. But maybe in fundie land this is the equivalent of "not my daughter you b!@#$."

[AliceInFundyland]

10 hours ago, vienna said:

Thank you so much for this comment. I could not agree more!

On another note: It sickens me that the Duggars are back on TV.

Do you have any screenshots of this Kelly defending her "inmodest" daughter? I would love to read it.

You are sickened by the Duggars return to tv but yet the Bates staying on tv leaves you stomach at ease? ( And yes, I know you did not say this, but you have made a number of comments leading me to believe you think, mostly, that it is okay for them to have a televison show) If i am mistaken and you don't think the Bates should be on tv either, my apologies, please correct me.

[formergothardite]

It can be easy to forget that the Bates have a sexual abuse scandal cover up just as bad as the Duggar one. It has impacted and damaged more people than the Duggar sex abuse cover up. That this family gets a show is sickening. No matter what Erin says on Instagram, she is still participating in selling a lie that hurts people. I've read comments on some of the articles about the lawsuit and there have been comments about how they watched the show and just can't believe someone as nice as Gil could possible do something like this. There was a discussion on one of my FB friend's page about the lawsuit and some people who responded had a hard time believing the victims because they are fans of the Bates show and Gil and Kelly just seem like the nicest couple who love their children deeply and would never, ever participate in something like that. Hell, one person tried to  act like GIL was a victim. 

 

[RoseWilder]

I really wish the media would report more on the Bates scandal. I tried emailing several websites about it - but they seemed to think the Bates weren't popular enough to report on. I even mentioned the Duggar connection - but no dice. It's so frustrating. 

[formergothardite]

2 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

I really wish the media would report more on the Bates scandal. I tried emailing several websites about it - but they seemed to think the Bates weren't popular enough to report on. I even mentioned the Duggar connection - but no dice. It's so frustrating. 

I've had the same problem. When the lawsuit is reported, news outlets connect it with the Duggars and the Bates are rarely mentioned. 

[RoseWilder]

Just now, formergothardite said:

I've had the same problem. When the lawsuit is reported, news outlets connect it with the Duggars and the Bates are rarely mentioned. 

I couldn't even get the media outlets I emailed to report on it at all. First I tried just the Bates angle. Nothing happened. Then I added in the Duggar angle and emailed again (along with the IBLP page that shows that Gil is on the board so they would be sure and report on it too. And none of them would report on it. It's so frustrating. 

[QuiverDance]

11 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

About fundies accepting a gay kid:

I can only speak as to what has happened in my own extended family when a child was gay.  One of my uncles by marriage was a fundie Wesleyan and his oldest son unfortunately has taken after his dad in being a fundie Christian.  His daughter is a lesbian who actually turned out to be on my care team after I had a mild stroke a few years ago.  My cousin has not talked to his daughter in 7 or 8 years nor has he has he spoken to his oldest son.  I don't know why that is though.  My mom's youngest sister told me that my cousin's daughter had visited her grandmother (her sister and my aunt) with her partner.  My 90+ year old aunt was fine with the sexual orientation of her granddaughter and both granddaughter and partner were welcome in her house.

Here's Ian McKellen reading Michael Tolliver's coming out letter to his homophobic parents from Tales of the City.  The text is there, too.  It's worth a listen and a read.

Mouse comes out to his folks

That is so sad.  What good is religion if it results in your estrangement from your children?

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

It can be easy to forget that the Bates have a sexual abuse scandal cover up just as bad as the Duggar one. It has impacted and damaged more people than the Duggar sex abuse cover up. That this family gets a show is sickening. No matter what Erin says on Instagram, she is still participating in selling a lie that hurts people. I've read comments on some of the articles about the lawsuit and there have been comments about how they watched the show and just can't believe someone as nice as Gil could possible do something like this. There was a discussion on one of my FB friend's page about the lawsuit and some people who responded had a hard time believing the victims because they are fans of the Bates show and Gil and Kelly just seem like the nicest couple who love their children deeply and would never, ever participate in something like that. Hell, one person tried to  act like GIL was a victim. 

To the bolded, it sounds like DARVO by proxy.  

For those who might not know, DARVO = Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender except it's not the perpetrator, it's someone on behalf of the perpetrator. 

I just don't understand for the life of me how people can think "Gill and Kelly seem sooo nice, they just can't be part of this".  I just can't believe that so many people are that gullible or have been living under a rock or something.  Surely, a lot of them have seen an example of someone who seems so nice being guilty of something awful.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

So I am guessing since the show is on tonight, they are going to announce the sex of Whitney and possibly Erin's babies? I know on Whitney's instagram she said in two weeks they would announce.

[justmy2cents]

32 minutes ago, SheWhoMustNotBeNamed said:

So I am guessing since the show is on tonight, they are going to announce the sex of Whitney and possibly Erin's babies? I know on Whitney's instagram she said in two weeks they would announce.

The Batesfam blog claims that TLC told them Erin would be announcing sex and name tonight too.  They might just have her confused with Whitney.  Just in case I'm calling girl for Whitney and another boy for Erin.  no guesses for names.

[actuallyjessica]

Does anyone know exactly how far along Erin is?

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

9 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

Does anyone know exactly how far along Erin is?

I think the woman who photographs them said she is due in July. So not that far behind Whitney I'd say.

[justmy2cents]

54 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

Does anyone know exactly how far along Erin is?

The BatesFam blog said that TLC told them end of July/ beginning of August.  With Erin's issues I would think July which will be a 14 month difference.  If she didn't have issues I could see her having as many as Kelly.  For her sake I hope she doesn't try for that many.

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I just don't understand for the life of me how people can think "Gill and Kelly seem sooo nice, they just can't be part of this".

I think people want to believe that there is this "ideal" family out there. They want to believe that while their life might be a mess, there really is the large, happy family that would be a joy to be a member of. Some of the fans on the Bringing Up Bates twitter post things like "I wish I could have had parents like you" or "I wish I could have had a family like this". The Bates and UP are selling a lie, but it is a lie that people want to believe. People want them to be what they appear to be on Television and social media and so they try to reject the reality that this family has some major issues. 

[RoseWilder]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

I think people want to believe that there is this "ideal" family out there. They want to believe that while their life might be a mess, there really is the large, happy family that would be a joy to be a member of. Some of the fans on the Bringing Up Bates twitter post things like "I wish I could have had parents like you" or "I wish I could have had a family like this". The Bates and UP are selling a lie, but it is a lie that people want to believe. People want them to be what they appear to be on Television and social media and so they try to reject the reality that this family has some major issues. 

Exactly.

When I first watched 14 Kids and Pregnant Again, it kind of appealed to the side of me that always loved the TV show Little House on the Prairie. Their lives seemed so simple and easy compared to the complications of modern life. I think it's appeals to the side of people who want to believe that we can recapture "the good old days" (which never existed but people still want to believe actually happened.) And then the Bates upped the ante by being more likeable than the Duggars. (Although I never saw the appeal of Gil. The only difference I see between Jim Bob and Gil is that Jim Bob is a smug, arrogant, grifter and Gil is a smug, arrogant, grifter who can cry on cue.) 

Or course then I started reading up on them and realized their lives are a clusterfuck of dysfunction and that my life is about 100 times better than theirs and I stopped seeing the appeal. 

Disclaimer: I was never a leghumper. I just thought there were aspects of their lives that seemed appealing. 

[Jana814]

59 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I think people want to believe that there is this "ideal" family out there. They want to believe that while their life might be a mess, there really is the large, happy family that would be a joy to be a member of. Some of the fans on the Bringing Up Bates twitter post things like "I wish I could have had parents like you" or "I wish I could have had a family like this". The Bates and UP are selling a lie, but it is a lie that people want to believe. People want them to be what they appear to be on Television and social media and so they try to reject the reality that this family has some major issues. 

I see that with the Duggar's and the Maxwell's too.  Did some people have such a messed up childhood that they wished they were raised in families who isolate their children and think their way of life is the only way. 

[vienna]

11 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

You are sickened by the Duggars return to tv but yet the Bates staying on tv leaves you stomach at ease? ( And yes, I know you did not say this, but you have made a number of comments leading me to believe you think, mostly, that it is okay for them to have a televison show) If i am mistaken and you don't think the Bates should be on tv either, my apologies, please correct me.

To some extent you are right. The Bates do not bother me as much as the Duggars. Patriarchy, Anti gay Propaganda ect should not have any platform to be promoted. None.

JUST in comparison to the Duggars, they seem so much better to me. But what I really like about them being on TV is the idea of how much it does/would bother the Duggars if the Bates Show became more popular than their own.

I am seeing the Bates not in comparison with the rest of the world and all religions and world views you can have but as a Group within the fundamental conservative quiverfull movement. And within this movement they are the group I root for. To me a lot of their views have the potential to make a positive change from inside the cult. I am not seeing that it will all be great than and that no abused wife will ever be told again that it is her duty to forgive the bastard and to be submissive no matter what because if she does HE will come through and make her husband see the light and become a better man....

I am just saying WITHIN THE MOVEMENT they have EG IN COMPARISION TO THE DUGGARS  in some points healthier views leading to mentally healthier more self-determined Kids/People and hopefully influence totally damaged Kids like Duggar Kids to be brave and find their own views and opinions even if the differ from their parents. Small Baby steps.

 

15 hours ago, Exjw2015deed said:

I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to, but here is a screen shot of Kelly responding to criticism on their blog about Alyssa. It wasn't Instagram, but perhaps this is the example. 

I definitely wouldn't compare her to Mama Weasley. But maybe in fundie land this is the equivalent of "not my daughter you b!@#$."

Thank you so much for this

[ElegantMajesticPearls]

1 hour ago, justmy2cents said:

The BatesFam blog said that TLC told them end of July/ beginning of August.  With Erin's issues I would think July which will be a 14 month difference.  If she didn't have issues I could see her having as many as Kelly.  For her sake I hope she doesn't try for that many.

How would TLC know when Erin would announce?

[AliceInFundyland]

14 minutes ago, vienna said:

To some extent you are right. The Bates do not bother me as much as the Duggars. Patriarchy, Anti gay Propaganda ect should not have any platform to be promoted. None.

JUST in comparison to the Duggars, they seem so much better to me. But what I really like about them being on TV is the idea of how much it does/would bother the Duggars if the Bates Show became more popular than their own.

I am seeing the Bates not in comparison with the rest of the world and all religions and world views you can have but as a Group within the fundamental conservative quiverfull movement. And within this movement they are the group I root for. To me a lot of their views have the potential to make a positive change from inside the cult. I am not seeing that it will all be great than and that no abused wife will ever be told again that it is her duty to forgive the bastard and to be submissive no matter what because if she does HE will come through and make her husband see the light and become a better man....

I am just saying WITHIN THE MOVEMENT they have EG IN COMPARISION TO THE DUGGARS  in some points healthier views leading to mentally healthier more self-determined Kids/People and hopefully influence totally damaged Kids like Duggar Kids to be brave and find their own views and opinions even if the differ from their parents. Small Baby steps.

 

Thank you for politely responding. Do  you realize that within in the movement THEY ARE 1000 x worse than the Duggars? In terms of IBLP continuing to be a thing Gil Bates has way more power than the doofus that is Jim Bob. If anything the healthier looking kids make 'the movement seem more appealing and less sordid. Even if Lawson, Erin, Alyssa amd Zack are all making pr approved steps at independence at ...it doesn't matter BECAUSE it makes GIL LOOK GOOD! The Duggars have shit to be jealous of. They waited it out and are happy as pigs in mud, having learned nothing.