Bates Family Part 10

[RoseWilder]

@Kira: Where in my post did I say that Derrick or Ben can never work again? I actually said the opposite, that they could do that but they don't, and that at some point they will have to. 

And until the show comes back as an actual full-time show, instead of an occasional special (which I hope never happens because it would be better for all of them to be off TV for good) then I don't think an occasional special counts as a real job. I already mentioned in my post that they probably have money from TV specials that they're living off but that eventually that would run out and the fame would end and they would have to get real jobs.  

You're really twisting my post into something that it wasn't.

[Kira]

56 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

@Kira: Where in my post did I say that Derrick or Ben can never work again? I actually said the opposite, that they could do that but they don't, and that at some point they will have to. 

And until the show comes back as an actual full-time show, instead of an occasional special (which I hope never happens because it would be better for all of them to be off TV for good) then I don't think an occasional special counts as a real job. I already mentioned in my post that they probably have money from TV specials that they're living off but that eventually that would run out and the fame would end and they would have to get real jobs.  

You're really twisting my post into something that it wasn't.

Um.... I not twisting your post. You said JB will have to support all 19 of his kids. I think that ridiculous. They have skills to get "real"  job. Why do people assume JB will have to support them? You don't think Derick and Ben know they have families to support.

 

The new show is full time. It's not a special

ETA: I reread your post @RoseWilder, and I get what your saying. I just don't think we have to worry about JB supporting his 400 people. It's ridiculous to think they won't get "real" jobs when they need to.

[OnceUponATime]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

The main difference between how Jessa was raised and how she believes now is that she was raised to believe that all people are born with the chance of being saved, Calvinism teaches that people are born predestined for heaven or predestined for hell. This seems minor, but it is actually a pretty big deal. Calvinsim includes other things, but that seems to be the biggest conflict about it among the people I know. I've seen fights over predestination split churches. 

in my melting-pot church while I was at uni (it had people from all over with different christian backgrounds) that was the only theological discussion point that got banned at one stage. I may have been among part of the discussions leading up to that ban.

[QuiverDance]

1 hour ago, refugee said:

This was incredibly triggering to read. Teen included some of this in the college research paper, so I've read it recently, but it had more impact this morning, perhaps because I've been thinking about this stuff.

I remember reading it in the koolaide days and having a twinge, and stuff the doubts down because I "obviously" didn't understand all the finer points.

It's like Goldie Hawn in that movie Overboard, if you've seen it. I am not saying it's the greatest movie in the world by mentioning it, BTW. Kurt Russell convinces amnesiac Hawn that she's his wife, and spins all these stories to explain inconsistencies (like she was in the Navy, and she was really fat and lost a lot of weight--to explain the huge thrift-store clothing they'd bought for her, and her parents were alcoholics and her mom was dead and her dad was in prison, etc.). Anyhow, she resists at first, but gradually she comes to believe the life he's presented, and there's this scene that stays with me, where she suddenly says something in French, and then she stops herself in surprise, saying, "When did I learn to speak French?" And then she answers herself, "When I was in Paris... but when was I in Paris?" And Russell is sitting there, holding his breath, thinking she's going to start remembering her real life, and she goes on and says, as if saying *of course!*, "Oh, right! When I was in the Navy!" ...and so the charade continues, for awhile longer.

But reading it now, not immersed in the culture, I can *see* so much of the wrongness, and it turns my stomach and makes me want to vomit.

I can understand how the women in the culture swallow it without questioning. It's horrible, and I can only hope they have their eyes opened, like I did, to the lie, and that somehow they are able to give credence to that feeling in their gut that something is very wrong.

May I ask, respectfully, what it was that opened your eyes, @refugee?  

[EmmieJ]

1 hour ago, Kira said:

Did the Duggars really ever have economic bad times?  The Duggars will not have to go back to rice and frumpers. They made(make) a lot of money from TLC and their name will keep them famous(especially the girls). Fame is so different nowadays. I think the Duggars will be fine economically. I know people think that Ben and Derick will never ever ever have "real" jobs again, but I disagree. I think Ben will be in seminary school by the end of the year. Derick will most likely get a job will he and Jill return to the Arkansas. The Duggar boys have some skills that they can use when the fame is gone. 

. It's just strange when people think the Bates minor changes mean something. Most fundies are different from their parents. 

Yes, I do believe the Duggars were living hand to mouth for a number of years.  I am not an expert in Duggar-lore, but I do recall reading that they lived in a home provided by their church (meaning, JB could not provide a home for them from his income).  I am pretty sure it was a small home, with either 2 or 3 bedrooms.  They had to move when the church decided to sell the property that the home was on.  I think that home is shown in the first Duggar special, 14 Kids and ... (so if my memory is correct, 16 people were living in a 3-bedroom house).  I also recall some information about one or two unpaid hospital bills showing up in Michelle's name, probably for childbirth.  I think money, food and space were very tight for a number of years. 

[tumblr]

1 hour ago, RoseWilder said:

Derrick has an accounting degree, which he stopped using so he could grift. Ben has a degree that he doesn't use because he's JimBob's yard boy. Who knows what will become of Josh. JD seems to be the only one who actually works at a real job and that was mostly stuff that JimBob set up for him (Duggar Towing.) 

They have the ability to get real jobs, but most of them don't. 

And I was just responding to the part of your post where you said that the Duggars aren't going to have to go back to the days of eating rice and wearing Frumpers because they have money now. My point was that JimBob and Michelle have money now - their children don't. I hope that some of them socked away some of the money they made from having their weddings and births featured on TV - but they're going to have to also have actual jobs at some point when the fame disappears. JimBob probably isn't going to be able to set up businesses for all of his kids. Eventually they won't be able to grift off their D-list fame, and JimBob won't be able to pay them all to be his errand boys. Reality is going to hit at some point but judging by the number of non-working adults they have in their family I would say that it hasn't fully hit just yet.

Why, this Bates thread has quickly derailed.... Anyway!

Can I ask what's wrong with JD having a job through his father? With Ben it's pathetic/sad/odd because he has a degree he could be using but I see nothing wrong with JD choosing to use his fathers connections or pull or what ever to get real jobs that have all been, to my knowledge, very real jobs. Ben is just an extra J'Slave from the look we got on the show but JD did towing, construction, politics and first responder work none of those are easy jobs even if your boss is your dad or your dad got you the job. 

[refugee]

48 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

May I ask, respectfully, what it was that opened your eyes, @refugee?  

It was the Botkin daughters' video on The Adventure of Womanhood (or something like that). I'd been disquieted for a while before that, watching my daughters' blithe and bonny spirits being steadily quenched by the restrictions upon them (even such things as seeing all "dumb" and boring toys in the girls' section of the Vision Forum catalog, when they'd much rather play with all the cool stuff the boys were offered -- but seeing it play out IRL as well -- when the children were under 10 or so, they'd play happily together, but the boys gradually became snarkier (the bullies) and more standoffish (the ones who *would* have continued to be friends, if not for peer pressure)).

What's that song from the musical South Pacific? "You have to be carefully taught..." or some such.

So when the Botkins' video came out, I was excited. I thought, finally I'd get to see the piece I was missing, the thing that would make all the pieces fall into place and make that down-underneath feeling that girls were being cheated in the culture, go away.

Only to see that the Botkin daughters' "grand adventure" was to stay at home and research while their brother went to the Nile to film a documentary amidst the pyramids, sphynx, and other wonders of Egypt.

That's when I knew it was true. Girls (and women) really were being cheated.

I started reading what I could find, stumbled on Homeschoolers Anonymous and Free Jinger (I had been secretly reading Jen's Gems since at least 2007, I think, and only stopped reading because they sent out that letter to all the xtian homeschool leaders -- I don't remember the details anymore, just that I'd had the impression Jen was only trying to sound an alarm, not being vindictive -- but that letter was vindictive in tone, so I discounted her after that. I know the problems with Jen F., but she was my gateway to discovering Doug Phillips wasn't all he presented himself to be.)

Anyhow, reading the testimonials on HA showed me the ugly underbelly of the movement, told me my concerns were real, told me I wasn't crazy, and that our family's misery wasn't the result of our *not* following the checklist perfectly, but rather, the checklist itself was a highway to hell on earth.

ETA: Oh, and somewhere in the middle of that breaking away process came Doug Phillips' downfall, and discovering the Recovering Grace website. We weren't ATI, but our mentors had been heavily gothard-influenced. I asked one of the VF-rah-rah leaders in our church, and another couple high up in our state homeschool organization, about Doug Phillips, and got the standard answer -- you know, the one you see on the news when some guy breaks out and murders a bunch of people, and his family, friends, and neighbors all say what a nice guy he was, when news crews interview them afterward? -- all this to say, Doug Phillips' downfall was not the spark that lit the fuse, but was more of a confirmation that breaking away was the right thing to do.

It was hard to leave our church -- which had slowly encompassed almost our entire life and social circle -- and it took, I think, a couple of years to finally break free. Even then, my spouse didn't see the problem for months, after -- he just went along because the rest of us were so miserable, home life was miserable and full of conflict (a mild word for screaming outbursts on the part of most of the desperate, trapped females in the family), and something had to change.

We have been in family counseling the past half year, and his eyes are being opened now. It's amazing how a trained, detached-yet-caring professional can call his attention to what we've been telling him for three years, and help him to understand and process and finally believe it.

[HereticHick]

Since it was just announced today (see Duggar Threads) that the Duggars are returning to TLC, a lot of this discussion is moot.  Will this help or hurt Bates TV ratings?

[refugee]

To add to the above, the posters on FJ that helped me the most, in questioning the QF, patriarchal culture, were the ones who expressed concern and distress. The ones who had only contempt for the people in the lifestyle are easily dismissed by the brainwashed, and their words go into the void, making little impression at all.

I can understand the bitterness, now, but back then, when I was breaking free, I really didn't have a clue as to what voices were trustworthy.

I suspect, from what little I remember of my childhood, that I didn't get a whole lot of nurturing, so I'm drawn to what "feels" like nurturing, and I shy away from what "feels" like harshness.

Growing up is tough. Especially this late in the game.

[QuiverDance]

@refugee Thank you so much for sharing.  It must have taken all of your strength to disengage, especially if your husband was not on board. 

[refugee]

52 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

@refugee Thank you so much for sharing.  It must have taken all of your strength to disengage, especially if your husband was not on board. 

Thank you.

I have some hope now. That's something. The scars run deep, but there is healing. I think two of our daughters have a chance to break away, to spread their wings, to find out who they are and what to do with their gifts, instead of burying what didn't fit inside the "box".

It took all I had, for certain, but the alternative was having one or both teens run away (it's a frightening prospect, with us being on a main sex-slave highway), or perhaps even suicide, on my part or theirs. It was truly a matter of life and death.

Maybe that's why we were able to break away, and yet we know dear people who have expressed distress, and yet have not been able to break free.

I have been uncomfortably open with people since then. I try to be a "safe place" for someone with doubts. I'm not very wise, I'm afraid, but I do have my own experience to think back on, and I've always had an uncomfortable amount of empathy for others.

Not praising myself or blowing my own horn. The above was difficult to write. I'm not trying to make myself look good. I have too much regret, for that to be possible.

ETA: Oh, and my spouse is not a complete jerk by nature. (He has his jerky facets...) Patriarchy magnified his more negative traits and taught him how to be a complete and utter and rigid and unempathetic and self-righteous jerk. He was brainwashed, too. It was hardest when he was in complete denial, but his thinking is changing. It takes time, but it is happening.

[sawasdee]

17 minutes ago, refugee said:

Thank you.

I have some hope now. That's something. The scars run deep, but there is healing. I think two of our daughters have a chance to break away, to spread their wings, to find out who they are and what to do with their gifts, instead of burying what didn't fit inside the "box".

It took all I had, for certain, but the alternative was having one or both teens run away (it's a frightening prospect, with us being on a main sex-slave highway), or perhaps even suicide, on my part or theirs. It was truly a matter of life and death.

Maybe that's why we were able to break away, and yet we know dear people who have expressed distress, and yet have not been able to break free.

I have been uncomfortably open with people since then. I try to be a "safe place" for someone with doubts. I'm not very wise, I'm afraid, but I do have my own experience to think back on, and I've always had an uncomfortable amount of empathy for others.

Not praising myself or blowing my own horn. The above was difficult to write. I'm not trying to make myself look good. I have too much regret, for that to be possible.

I have so much respect for your bravery. The only statement that you have made in your posts that I disagree with is 'I am not very wise'.  I think you have been, and are, very wise - and you have carried your family along with you. Without your wisdom and bravery, I do not like to think of your daughters' future.

Bravo to you, on so many levels. You had the imagination to see how your daughters' future could be ruined, you had the strength to confront your church, you had the courage and determination to bring your whole family with you. And you had the wisdom to realise that counselling is needed for all of you to make the next step. I cannot articulate how much I admire and respect you, and your spirit. Bravo!

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

@KiraThe Duggars may be fine financially as far as raising the rest of their kids goes, but they don't have enough money to support all 19 of their children when their grown, along with their spouses and all of their kids. If each Duggar child has a spouse and 19 kids of their own, that's roughly 400 people to support. Even if each child only has 10 kids, that's over 200 people. Sooner or later economic reasons will force some of the kids to get actual jobs working around non-Fundies. Some of them may even GASP have to get job training or a degree of some kind to support their families. 

Absolutely!!! Lots of people are going to have to get independently paying jobs if an AND COUNTING is going to continue via 19 undereducated people.

 

[Mrs. Figg]

Alyssa must have a private IG.  Maybe they are smart after all.

[imokit]

24 minutes ago, Mrs. Figg said:

Alyssa must have a private IG.  Maybe they are smart after all.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into it,because I want it to be true, but that statement sounds nice and complete.  Look what I have, life is good.  I have the most gorgeous daughter, an amazing man, an amazing place to live, and Jesus.  I don't need more (of anything including kids, because I'm able to recognise that I lucked out on the one I have).

Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I shall continue my delusion.

[HRM1216]

Her private insta was found a few weeks ago but didn't know if it could be shared. I agree with @imokit that her description just sounds content with life (for right now). Hope she stays that way for a long while and enjoys everything she can. 

[19 cats and counting]

I personally don't blame her for having a private instagram.  She's a semi public figure, and I'm sure there's things she wants to share with her loved ones that she does not want to share with the world.

To me, her private Insta is like having a (private) personal FB page and then a fan page to share with the world.   I see political candidates doing this all the time.  Joe Schmoe's personal page (or Insta/twitter/etc) is naturally going to look different than Joe Schmoe for Congress.  I'm sure that other secular public figures do the same thing to distance their public persona with their private one.

[RoseWilder]

6 hours ago, Kira said:

Um.... I not twisting your post. You said JB will have to support all 19 of his kids. I think that ridiculous. They have skills to get "real"  job. Why do people assume JB will have to support them? You don't think Derick and Ben know they have families to support.

 

The new show is full time. It's not a special

ETA: I reread your post @RoseWilder, and I get what your saying. I just don't think we have to worry about JB supporting his 400 people. It's ridiculous to think they won't get "real" jobs when they need to.

I actually think we agree on this subject more than it seems. Because I actually do believe they will get jobs when the fame ends. I tried to state that in my posts, that I think they will get jobs when reality actually hits, but that it hasn't yet. 

And I guess we really don't have to worry about how they will support themselves since TLC seems hellbent on putting them back on the air. I had no idea the show was coming back. That's revolting. 

[Kira]

13 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

I actually think we agree on this subject more than it seems. Because I actually do believe they will get jobs when the fame ends. I tried to state that in my posts, that I think they will get jobs when reality actually hits, but that it hasn't yet. 

And I guess we really don't have to worry about how they will support themselves since TLC seems hellbent on putting them back on the air. I had no idea the show was coming back. That's revolting. 

I'm very sorry that I misread your post 

 

[RoseWilder]

5 minutes ago, Kira said:

I'm very sorry that I misread your post 

 

No problem. Misunderstandings happen. Thanks for the apology!

[sockinshoe]

Alyssa must have a private IG.  Maybe they are smart after all.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into it,because I want it to be true, but that statement sounds nice and complete.  Look what I have, life is good.  I have the most gorgeous daughter, an amazing man, an amazing place to live, and Jesus.  I don't need more (of anything including kids, because I'm able to recognise that I lucked out on the one I have).

Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I shall continue my delusion.

I hate to be that person, but your interpretation is just not the case. Just because Alyssa wears pants and has a private IG doesn't mean she's out of the cult. We all thought Erin's piano teaching job and her high risk pregnancy were encouraging signs. I won't judge her for her pregnancy because I believe that she should be able to do what she wants with her body (even though she denies other women that same consideration). However, I think it's deeply sad to see all these women, bursting with potential, conscript themselves to being broodmares. I also think it is hideous that any parent would raise their child in a cult where what is essentially suicide-by-baby (which is what can easily happen if a woman does not receive adequate midwifery or engages in a long string of high risk pregnancies) is lauded as one of the highest forms of martyrdom.

[feministxtian]

Instead of making WAGs now...how about everybody step back and wait 5-10 years. For the oldest 4 Bates kids, they've been on their own for what? Max 3 years? They are still figuring out how to be adults. Now, in 10 years if they're all the same uber-fundie...then talk shit. Until then...just chill. 

[punkiepie]

As a former IFBer, I cannot overstate how monumental it is to go against any of the beliefs/teachings one was taught and raised upon.  It may seem insignificant to many and  most people- to start wearing pants, disavow religious affiliations, or obtain a job that isn't one of the pre-approved occupations. But, these are huge, monumental, big deals!  Not only does the adult child risk alienating their parents, and remaining siblings living in their parent's home, but they risk causing a split or rift between their family and their religious affiliations.  I can't tell you all how often parents are taught that if they "train up [their] child in the way he should go" and that when they are "old, [they] will not depart from it." (Prov. 22:6) Which basically means, any wrong doing on the part of your child means that you, as the parent, did not raise your child correctly. 

I'm not a Bates leg-humper, not at all! But, when the majority of your adult children display public behavior that contradicts, or doesn't align with, the beliefs/teachings that they were raised to have- it does speak volumes.  It also speaks volumes that their parents continue to support, and affiliate themselves, with these children of theirs who have publicly stated their different beliefs.

Think of it like a glass or mirror or window shield; they are all incredibly hard and difficult to break when solid. But once you have, even a tiny crack in it, it becomes very easy to break or shatter. These tiny differences many of you think are insignificant, are actually enormous chinks in their belief systems. 

 

[habert]

3 minutes ago, punkiepie said:

As a former IFBer, I cannot overstate how monumental it is to go against any of the beliefs/teachings one was taught and raised upon.  It may seem insignificant to many and  most people- to start wearing parents, disavow religious affiliations, or obtain a job that isn't one of the pre-approved occupations. But, these are huge, monumental, big deals!  Not only does the adult child risk alienating their parents, and remaining siblings living in their parent's home, but they risk causing a split or rift between their family and their religious affiliations.  I can't tell you all how often parents are taught that if they "train up [their] child in the way he should go" and that when they are "old, [they] will not depart from it." (Prov. 22:6) Which basically means, any wrong doing on the part of your child means that you, as the parent, did not raise your child correctly. 

I'm not a Bates leg-humper, not at all! But, when the majority of your adult children display public behavior that contradicts, or doesn't align with, the beliefs/teachings that they were raised to have- it does speak volumes.  It also speaks volumes that their parents continue to support, and affiliate themselves, these children of theirs who have publicly stated their different beliefs.

Think of it like a glass or mirror or window shield; they are all incredibly hard and difficult to break to when solid. But once you have, even a tiny crack in it, it becomes very easy to break or shatter. These tiny differences many of you think are insignificant, are actually enormous chinks in their belief systems. 

 

Interesting...do you think Kelly and Gil are having shifts in their ideology, too? Gil is still on the board.

[feministxtian]

considering their courtship rules seem to have relaxed considerably after the Zach and Sara Reith debacle...