Bates Family Part 10

[elliha]

36 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think there are differences between Duggars and Bates as parents. And these differences would be the same if they weren't fundies. There's something weird in JB&Michelle, I'm sure they'd be extremelly controlling and egocentric and even envy of their kids, no matter religión. Kelly&Gil are also controlling, but they seem to enjoy their kids growing up, having independent jobs and are helping them to marry. Yes, only in religious ways, but still. I don't see Michelle helping Jana to catch a boy (as Kelly did to Michael), or being happy with married kids living far, or working outside the family business. 

I'm not defending Bates, but Duggars are even worse. 

Yes, the way they interact with each other is different. I get the feeling that the Bates have accepted that their children are not clones of the parents. They might still expect that they choose to live a very similar life to their parents but they do seem to understand that this does not mean 100% the same. They also seem to be able to see that their children are individuals and that this is not a bad thing. The Dugars seem to see one model and have a hard time accepting that even in their culture there are actually more options than what they, the parents, chose. 

[TuringMachine]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think there are differences between Duggars and Bates as parents. And these differences would be the same if they weren't fundies. There's something weird in JB&Michelle, I'm sure they'd be extremelly controlling and egocentric and even envy of their kids, no matter religión. Kelly&Gil are also controlling, but they seem to enjoy their kids growing up, having independent jobs and are helping them to marry. Yes, only in religious ways, but still. I don't see Michelle helping Jana to catch a boy (as Kelly did to Michael), or being happy with married kids living far, or working outside the family business. 

I'm not defending Bates, but Duggars are even worse. 

This is exactly what how I feel. All of her interaction with her kids (on the show at least) never seemed particularly loving. All those episodes with her attempts to connect with her kids were painfully pathetic. Kelly on the other hand comes off as much more involved with her kids. Plus the Bates kids seem to have more normal sibling relationships, and I think this because Kelly was more prominent and there wasn't as much siblings raising each other. Though I will admit this is just off of what little we see of their lives and that some of it is probably just the Bates better at marketing themselves. These are just the strong vibes I've always gotten from watching them.

[RoseWilder]

I agree that the Bates siblings seem to have more normal interations/relationships than the Duggar children, but I think that's probably because they don't have a sibling who has molested his other siblings and not because they don't raise each other. They still have a buddy system just like the Duggars. Someone other than Kelly does the homeschooling, the potty training, getting up at night with the babies, the cooking, etc. I remember an early episode of United Bates of America (or maybe it was an episode of 19 Kids and Counting that the Bates family appeared in, I'm not sure) where Kelly admitted that the new baby wasn't going in their bedroom, but in the bedroom with it's older sister. Does anyone else remember what show/episode that was?

[nastyhobbitses]

24 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

I agree that the Bates siblings seem to have more normal interations/relationships than the Duggar children, but I think that's probably because they don't have a sibling who has molested his other siblings and not because they don't raise each other. They still have a buddy system just like the Duggars. Someone other than Kelly does the homeschooling, the potty training, getting up at night with the babies, the cooking, etc. I remember an early episode of United Bates of America (or maybe it was an episode of 19 Kids and Counting that the Bates family appeared in, I'm not sure) where Kelly admitted that the new baby wasn't going in their bedroom, but in the bedroom with it's older sister. Does anyone else remember what show/episode that was?

Not sure what episode, but I agree with you on the buddy thing. During Michael's wedding, you could tell that Callie was much more attached to Michael than to her biological mother. That wasn't "my sister is getting married and I don't like change/not being paid attention to" crying. That wasn't "I'm a very young child who is overstimulated and tired" crying. That was "my mother is going away forever" crying.

Really, I wish I could tell these Quiverfull women, if you don't want to bond with them or actually fucking raise them, don't have them. I know that goes against what the creepy weird rapist your husband decided you should listen to said, but that's the truth.

[Iokaste]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think there are differences between Duggars and Bates as parents. And these differences would be the same if they weren't fundies. There's something weird in JB&Michelle

I don't quite agree. There is really no way of knowing how JB and Michelle would have turned out had they not married as teenagers and started their "adult" lifes playing house and simply kept doing that, playing that is.
If they had actually gone out into the real world and met a variety of people from all different backgrounds, faiths, cultures, etc, and discovered that there are a multitude of ways to live good lives.

Also I think the quiverfull/patriarchal believes and lifestyle tends to really bring out the worst in a lot of people's character.
There is so much catering to the ego of men that it is bound to become inflated.
JB is the perfect example of this: The man is obviously not very bright, but had he learned a trade, got married when he'd actually had a real taste of what it is to be an adult, had a few kids and coached the little league, he could have been a real asset to a small rural community, instead of a pompous, selfrighteous menace to society as a whole, with his bigoted, narrow worldview. 

[QuiverDance]

14 hours ago, roddma said:

She's the one who got more perturbed at the front hug between Jill and Derick.The two SILS have converted to their belief, especially Derick.


 

I've always felt weird about the way Michelle reacted to that and to the inadvertent hand-holding during a prayer by (I think?) Ben and Jessa.  I know, for me, that when I was married to a controlling and judgmental man who would punish me in a variety of emotionally abusive and manipulative ways for any perceived slight to his authority, I often corrected behaviors in my children that were innocuous and didn't bother me; I just knew they'd bother  HIM and did not want to be criticized for being a bad mother.   Examples of this:  getting too close to the kitchen sink (germiest place in the house and one of his triggers), getting too close to the garbage can, touching shoes, putting shoes in the wrong place...  In other words, somewhat irrational things related more to his OCD than proper behavior or hygeine, just like Jim Bob's courtship rules are not really rational.

[jcanglin991]

With Lawson's tweets defending and excusing his father in regard to the charges against Gothard, I just get a strong feeling that the Duggars were right when they said molestation happened a lot in their circle. The defending of Gil is just more excuses and victim blaming, although he doesn't come right out and say it. In most of society, the people around a serial molester or rapist would be outraged, not eager to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. These people are so rigidly controlled and so eager to put men on a pedestal that anything that challenges their world view is put in a box labeled Satan and vilified. There is  way too much here that is not right and putting a happy shiny face on it with the Bates' isn't doing anyone any good.

[tumblr]

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think there are differences between Duggars and Bates as parents. And these differences would be the same if they weren't fundies. There's something weird in JB&Michelle, I'm sure they'd be extremelly controlling and egocentric and even envy of their kids, no matter religión. Kelly&Gil are also controlling, but they seem to enjoy their kids growing up, having independent jobs and are helping them to marry. Yes, only in religious ways, but still. I don't see Michelle helping Jana to catch a boy (as Kelly did to Michael), or being happy with married kids living far, or working outside the family business. 

I'm not defending Bates, but Duggars are even worse. 

I think Kelly and Michelle are two side of the same coin. Michelle seems too really enjoy the babies and not care so much when they are older, Kelly seems to not enjoy the young stages but really connects well with her older kids. Neither is an ideally parent but both would have likely been fine with an average sized family. I think with Michelle her not connect/caring much about the older kids hurts them a lot more when they are 1 of 19 and probably forces the sister mom relationship to be strong the older they get. (Jill taking Joy with her for a while, Jessa seems less close to her buddies than Jill now but that always seemed to be the case in  what we were shown) With the Bates I think once they kids are 9/10 the buddy system likely becomes less important and they start to spend more time with Mom and all the siblings. 

As always this is all purely observation and could all be entirely wrong. I will fully admit that I find something about the Bates family a lot more interesting and appealing than the Duggars so this is also probably a bit bias. 

11 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

That is an absolutely evil teaching.

 

I know of many non-religious people who say things like "it happened for a reason" "it wasn't meant to be" "maybe you should have..." when they learn of a miscarriage occurring. IMO, it's all in the same vein of placing blame on the mother.

I was talking to a friend and her mom about miscarriages the other day, The friends mom had a miscarriage from trauma when she fell down the stair while holding my friend as an infant. She had to choose between dropping her baby or falling and risking miscarriage.  She did fall and miscarry and implied that it was a ghost/god/jesus who pushed her down the stairs to make her realize that she couldn't handle another child.

I found the conversation horrifying honestly. I think a lot of woman blame a miscarriage on themselves and see it as some kind of evidence of failure on their behalf. This isn't the fault of any one religion or group I think it is simply a phycological thing because woman are often told that their ability to carry a life is so special that when they fail at that it causes a crisis of identity.  

[SweetFellowshipper]

I don't think it's at all relevant that when Erin and Chad were very, very young newlyweds a few years ago, they had a cake for Got-hard. Even if they loved him then, views change. I would imagine that the betrayal of their fathers and/or the sexual abuse allegations would do the trick. I'd hate for people to judge me on my stated views in my early 20s to mid 20s, or from the time immediately after I left my parents' home (which, for Erin, was THE DAY of her wedding!). Shudder. I did take Lawson's comment not to be clarifying, but passively aggressively disagreeing with, her comment.

I think their choice to have another child or not, and take risks or not, is entirely their own. That said, I hope they're not being unduly influenced by parents or anything but their own beliefs.

[actuallyjessica]

I really wish Kelly would take Michelle on a fellowship bra shoppin' trip. She clearly knows that good support is necessary and Michelle (and J'slaves!) are not lacking in size, but lacking in holding them up.

[tumblr]

19 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

I really wish Kelly would take Michelle on a fellowship bra shoppin' trip. She clearly knows that good support is necessary and Michelle (and J'slaves!) are not lacking in size, but lacking in holding them up.

I won't name names to be respectful but a couple of the Duggar girls seem like they are very large, chest wise. It makes me wonder if they are taught anything about stretching or back exercises to help minimize pain.

[sawasdee]

1 hour ago, jcanglin991 said:

With Lawson's tweets defending and excusing his father in regard to the charges against Gothard, I just get a strong feeling that the Duggars were right when they said molestation happened a lot in their circle. The defending of Gil is just more excuses and victim blaming, although he doesn't come right out and say it. In most of society, the people around a serial molester or rapist would be outraged, not eager to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. These people are so rigidly controlled and so eager to put men on a pedestal that anything that challenges their world view is put in a box labeled Satan and vilified. There is  way too much here that is not right and putting a happy shiny face on it with the Bates' isn't doing anyone any good.

Similar situations, where sexual abuse of various kinds has been covered up, seem to be part of the dynamic of many fundie churches, particularly patriarchal ones. Just look at the scandals around Doug Wilson, the many cases in the IFB that have fairly recently come to light, and the horrors of the FLDS. The Roman Catholic church for many years showed a similar dynamic, but at least under the present Pope seems to be attempting to confront its past.

I completely agree that Gil has shown his true colours in his reaction to and behaviour with regard to the Gothard scandal. Anyone who thinks he is any better than any other fundamentalist patriarchal asshole is, IMNSHO, seriously deluded.

[SassyPants]

The Duggars are more [hyper]focused on their adult children than on the lives of their minor children.

I do not see that with the Bateses.

 

Probably because the Duggars are focused on control while seemingly being allergic to the work associated with childrearing.

[THERetroGamerNY]

Aw, how cute that some of you have adopted the Bates as your pet fundies...

[nastyhobbitses]

Quote

Tumblr: I think Kelly and Michelle are two side of the same coin. Michelle seems too really enjoy the babies and not care so much when they are older, Kelly seems to not enjoy the young stages but really connects well with her older kids. Neither is an ideally parent but both would have likely been fine with an average sized family. I think with Michelle her not connect/caring much about the older kids hurts them a lot more when they are 1 of 19 and probably forces the sister mom relationship to be strong the older they get. (Jill taking Joy with her for a while, Jessa seems less close to her buddies than Jill now but that always seemed to be the case in  what we were shown) With the Bates I think once they kids are 9/10 the buddy system likely becomes less important and they start to spend more time with Mom and all the siblings. 

Your observation about their parenting styles is actually really interesting. And it makes a huge amount of sense. I think that with fewer children and no fundie influence, Kelly would have been a lot like my mom: loves her kids a lot, but doesn't really like them until they're older and she can have real conversations with them. I'm a lot closer to my mom now as an adult than I was as a child. Michelle in the same hypothetical situation would probably also be a pretty good mom, but prefer younger children and be kind of hands-off as the kids get older. I think that with an average-sized family, both of these dynamics can be OK and be good for kids in different ways. With 19 children and Fundamentalism, these dynamics are really bad, because either way, it leads to a mother who disengages but doesn't really re-engage and can't build strong bonds with all of her kids.

[MissBitters]

@THERetroGamerNYHow cute is it that all you can do is resort to mocking other members instead of concocting an intelligent argument to add to the discussion.

[feministxtian]

I've often joked that I liked my kids best at two points in their lives...first when they were newborns and would stay where I put them and the next was after they left home...it was the time in between that killed me. 

I love my kids dearly...fuck with them and you get me taking the nuclear option (just ask my son's x-wife)...but there were stretches where I didn't particularly like them. My daughter is VERY different from me in many ways...she's the literary type who reads Shakespeare for fun...you couldn't pay me to read another Shakespeare play. One in high school was more than enough. I would sit while she told me about this or that but honestly, my eyes would start to glaze over. #1 son is a jerk. He's always been convinced not conceited. He's just not someone I would hang out with if given a choice. #2 son lives out where the air is rare. He's always thinking up the wildest stuff, and lives in his own little world. 

It doesn't mean I don't love them it doesn't mean I wouldn't kill for them, it just means they are very different people and their growing up years were painful. Now, as adults, I think they're a lot of fun. But that stretch from about 12 to when they left home was TOUGH. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

14 minutes ago, MissBitters said:

@THERetroGamerNYHow cute is it that all you can do is resort to mocking other members instead of concocting an intelligent argument to add to the discussion.

Concoct: to invent or develop (a plan, story, etc.) especially in order to trick or deceive someone.

"Concoct intelligent conversation" is a very interesting turn of phrase.

The Duggars use an electric cattle prod on their children. The Bates use a glossy wooden one. They receive equal "fuck you" treatment from me.

[Alachantal]

Congratulations @VelociRapture!

[TShirtsLongSkirts]

6 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I've often joked that I liked my kids best at two points in their lives...first when they were newborns and would stay where I put them and the next was after they left home...it was the time in between that killed me. 

I love my kids dearly...fuck with them and you get me taking the nuclear option (just ask my son's x-wife)...but there were stretches where I didn't particularly like them. My daughter is VERY different from me in many ways...she's the literary type who reads Shakespeare for fun...you couldn't pay me to read another Shakespeare play. One in high school was more than enough. I would sit while she told me about this or that but honestly, my eyes would start to glaze over. #1 son is a jerk. He's always been convinced not conceited. He's just not someone I would hang out with if given a choice. #2 son lives out where the air is rare. He's always thinking up the wildest stuff, and lives in his own little world. 

It doesn't mean I don't love them it doesn't mean I wouldn't kill for them, it just means they are very different people and their growing up years were painful. Now, as adults, I think they're a lot of fun. But that stretch from about 12 to when they left home was TOUGH. 

I think this is really common.  I've always had a good relationship with my parents but I'm sure I got on their nerves when I was a kid/teenager (and obviously they got on mine too!)!  Our relationship's never been better since I moved out.  I know for me, once I reached the age where I saw my parents as real people, fellow adults who I can drink with and joke with, my parents became more like my close friends =) I am very lucky to get on with them so well, though, and I understand not everyone has that.

There are many ways I feel sorry for the ATI fundies, and one of them is that to them, even as adults, they see their father as their headship and to be respected and feared.  My dad is someone who gives me advice and goes on pub crawls with me once in a while.  

[SilverBeach]

2 hours ago, tumblr said:

I found the conversation horrifying honestly. I think a lot of woman blame a miscarriage on themselves and see it as some kind of evidence of failure on their behalf. This isn't the fault of any one religion or group I think it is simply a phycological thing because woman are often told that their ability to carry a life is so special that when they fail at that it causes a crisis of identity.  

Often it is not a fail at all, but is natures way of preventing the birth of a baby that is so severely deformed that it would not be viable outside of the womb. Many early miscarriages just look like heavy bleeding, and are not that uncommon.  

[actuallyjessica]

5 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Often it is not a fail at all, but is natures way of preventing the birth of a baby that is so severely deformed that it would not be viable outside of the womb. Many early miscarriages just look like heavy bleeding, and are not that uncommon.  

Whether deformed or 'natures way', a loss is still a loss when that child was very much wanted and loved. For future reference, please do not attempt to minimise the emotional and physical pain that somebody goes through when experiencing a miscarriage.

[SilverBeach]

18 hours ago, tumblr said:

The staying from his marriage was probably nature, some people just aren't cut out for monogamy. However I think the molestation was likely a nurture issue. He wasn't given appropriate outlets for sexual urges and was likely very uninformed about female anatomy, so he tried to self educate at the expense of his young sisters. 

Ugh, Joshley apologetics. Molestation as a nurture issue? Really? The straying from his marriage was due to a lack of character, not nature. People not "cut out" for monogamy should not get married.Fluck Joshley, no excuses for him molesting girls including a five year old when he was a TEENAGER. 

4 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

Whether deformed or 'natures way', a loss is still a loss when that child was very much wanted and loved. For future reference, please do not attempt to minimise the emotional and physical pain that somebody goes through when experiencing a miscarriage.

WTF are you talking about!

Not minimizing a damn thing! No one should feel guilty or responsible for miscarrying. You really read a lot into my post that I did not say or imply, damn! That really pisses me off. Seek clarification before making such a horrible accusation. 

[nokidsmom]

20 minutes ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

I think this is really common.  I've always had a good relationship with my parents but I'm sure I got on their nerves when I was a kid/teenager (and obviously they got on mine too!)!  Our relationship's never been better since I moved out.  I know for me, once I reached the age where I saw my parents as real people, fellow adults who I can drink with and joke with, my parents became more like my close friends =) I am very lucky to get on with them so well, though, and I understand not everyone has that.

There are many ways I feel sorry for the ATI fundies, and one of them is that to them, even as adults, they see their father as their headship and to be respected and feared.  My dad is someone who gives me advice and goes on pub crawls with me once in a while.  

For those who can have a good relationship with parents as adults where both sides can see each other as adults with their own lives, respect that and actually enjoy that, I think they are pretty lucky.

I wasn't raised fundie but my relationship with my Maxwellian style parents become more problematic as an adult.  This started once I made moves to leave the family home and I don't think I have been completely forgiven for it since.   My sisters still see my Dad as someone to look up to, almost worship a la the Botkinettes, so then when he does show himself as human (as he did when my mother was dying) it's taken as a huge shock.   There's days I almost can't stand the weirdness and I never thought I would be in that place as an adult.

[SilverBeach]

17 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Often it is not a fail at all, but is natures way of preventing the birth of a baby that is so severely deformed that it would not be viable outside of the womb. Many early miscarriages just look like heavy bleeding, and are not that uncommon.  

Am I minimizing emotional pain here? Where and how? Been through it myself. Seriously, I need no one telling me "for future reference" anything. Some posters should slow their roll. I'm steaming here, hate false accusations by the self-righteous.

 

Come on @actuallyjessica, don't disappear now! You were pretty bold coming at me like that, so where are you now?