Bates Family Part 10

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

5 hours ago, elliha said:

I agree that you can be surprised even if you didn't use birth control. My sister got pregnant when her oldest was 8-9 months. They had sex without a condom but as her periods were not back and she had felt no indication of them returning she thought she was safe. It was just one time but as we all know that is all it takes. They were totally surprised and hardly believed the result when she tested positive. This might have been the case with Erin and Chad or they might even have tried to avoid it through NFP but that is hard before the first period but it can work if you are comfortable with your body and know the signs (I have always kept track of my ovulation despite never using it as birth control but I could probably do it if necessary). I say what I have said before, I sincerely hope she will consider using protection after this one or at least combine several methods of NFP to maximize the efficiency. If she is dead against hormones condoms are absolutely fine. Me and my husband have always used them and they work very well as long as you actually put them on every single time. 

Plenty of people (myself included) get pregnant while properly using condoms every single time. ;-)

[colors_outside15]

13 hours ago, roddma said:

It's hard to say what they choose or don't choose.

I agree with this statement. We don't have enough information to actually know what the adult Bates/Duggar children think or do in their free time. Additionally, I know that when I was growing up, I thought I was actively making choices. Of course, I wasn't at all - I was incredibly brainwashed and programmed to do exactly one thing, but whatever that one thing was - I was convinced I choose it, and it was the right thing to do. I had no comprehension of the word "brainwashed" or of ways of life that were different from my own. It was a very, very small little bubble and if you told me I would ever leave or think differently - I would stubbornly tell you point blank that you were wrong and argue in what I thought was an in depth way. This never happened in any major way because people within the circle weren't exactly looking to pick fights when they thought the same way, but it would have if anyone had questioned me. After you're thoroughly brainwashed (like all the Bates and Duggar children were/are), it's very hard to step back and come to a totally new conclusion. It's possible, and I do have a lot of hope for Alyssa mainly because she is able to speak her mind against rude people online in a very strong willed way that does not stay in line with her family's beliefs, but it's definitely not easy. And, in all likelihood, the women had some say in their future husbands. I would guess they think that is a major choice rather than thinking "well, I got to choose between two ATI/IBLP males that were pre-approved by mommy and daddy".

[tumblr]

3 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I think a lot of Josh Duggar's problems might be nature. I feel a little bad saying that, because I'm not a fan of reducing people to their genetic makeup, and I strongly believe that nurture contributed, but yeah... some people just have issues, no matter how well they were raised. I know my sister and I were raised pretty much exactly the same way, by the same people, we're only two years apart in age, but we're completely different people.

The staying from his marriage was probably nature, some people just aren't cut out for monogamy. However I think the molestation was likely a nurture issue. He wasn't given appropriate outlets for sexual urges and was likely very uninformed about female anatomy, so he tried to self educate at the expense of his young sisters. 

Not saying it was okay in any way but I have a hard time saying that he would have committed those same act if given a solid education and outlets to express his sexuality. 

[KitCatCadillac]

1 hour ago, RosyDaisy said:

As my oldest niece just said: "Lawson is an arrogant asshole".

Out of the mouths of babes...

[grandmadugger]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I have often wondered if the difference is that the Duggars were able to exploit their children on television long before the Bates were. Reality TV is not a healthy environment to be raised in and I really think it does something to the kids whose childhoods are sold as entertainment. 

Does anyone think Lawson would be acting like he is if he hadn't become a minor reality tv star? I doubt it. He would probably be working long hours at his lawn business and maybe even thinking about moving out and starting his own life. The Duggar were pushed into an even brighter spotlight when they were teens. Their whole identities were created around being reality television stars.  Is it any wonder none of them have turned out too great? 

Josh had already molested 5 girls by the time the camera crews showed up.  I do think the television exposure added to his smugness.

I'm pretty sure Lawson would be arrogant with or without tv. 

[roddma]

I'm going to agree with @singsingsing back a couple of pages. It seems the Bateses allow their kids more, but none have done anything too out of the way. The Bateses weren't as well off as the Duggars either. It looked like Josh and Anna had a TV at one time, and they pierced Mac's ears. And Smuggar had a credit card, obviously. I'm sure other Fundie ATI

Never ever would this happen to a Duggar where everyone, even the married kids are trained to repeat as they have been told to. They can not and do not think for themselves. The Bates seem to and to allowe thier kids to do so. Thats all, not more not less

kids have recorded more secular music and been allowed Clown College, pierced their kids ears, or work more secular jobs.


If you ask me Derick would have never made the cut with Gil. Jessa seems to wear the pants and secretly Michelle does too, though she wont admit it. She's the one who got more perturbed at the front hug between Jill and Derick.The two SILS have converted to their belief, especially Derick.


Jim Bob and Gil let their kids be around a man accused of sexual misconduct. The Bateses are trying to sell the lifestyle.

[Imagine20]

Generally women will clotting disorders are limited to nonhormonal types of birth control. So if Chad and Erin are against an IUD and condoms, NFP might be their only way. Given how easily she seems gets pregnant, if they're not super vigilant, an "oops" baby is pretty likely. 

[Whoosh]

My only comment on comparing the two families is that Gil Bates is on the Board of Directors for IBLP - that is the group that is supposed to oversee the actions and behaviors of the people working there (including the head or owner or leader or whatever one would call Gothard) and to guide the direction and goals of the group as a whole.  It was LITERALLY his JOB to actively make efforts to KNOW what was going on and step up to the plate if there was a problem.  

Granted, it could well be that JB would have leapt at the chance to have that position and for some reason no one offered - who knows.  What is clear is that Gil Bates was being paid to do that job and he failed miserably. Here is what the IBLP website says of their Board (before introducing Chad Paine's father and Erin Bates Paine's father):

"They are able to provide accountability and wise counsel for the direction of the IBLP ministry." 

[Jana814]

4 hours ago, vienna said:

Don´t forget: Zach and Whitney kissed before the were married.... (!!)

Really!!  I didn't know that. When was this? 

[formergothardite]

21 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

Josh had already molested 5 girls by the time the camera crews showed up.  I do think the television exposure added to his smugness.

I'm pretty sure Lawson would be arrogant with or without tv. 

Oh, I wasn't talking about Josh. I mentioned earlier in the thread that IMO Josh has a lot of issues that would have caused problems no matter what family he was born in and being a Bates sure as hell wouldn't have turned him into a better human. 

I know people think Gil and Kelly were better parents in some ways, but I just don't see it. The real differences I see between the families is how soon they were able to exploit their children and how fast Gil and Kelly learned from the mistakes the Duggars made when it comes to handling their public image. 

Lawson would probably be arrogant without tv, but the fame as made it worse. In the first episode where we met the Bates he is barely shown. Zach was the one who was all over the cameras talking. 

[SassyPants]

11 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I believe that Chad and Erin have a pretty good handle on the pregnancy issues. I wouldn't get too into the on purpose or not thing. Their history is pretty scary. I wouldn't be surprised if they were shitting bricks. 

Yeah, it'd be nice if we saw Alyssa in a bikini and Erin in a pair of jeans...but...

Let's look at the Bates kids...Zach is a cop, their 2nd kid will be about 18 months younger than their first one. Chad works for a local business...their kids will be about 16 months apart, Erin is still working, teaching, recording. John works for his dad's business, Alyssa has totally changed her wardrobe, and no sign of Webster #2. Michael and Brandon will stay in the IBLP fold. We are not privy to their private beliefs, conversations, etc. 

Yeah, there was a cake for Gothard at Chad & Erin's wedding...HOWEVER...that was what? 3 years ago? That has nothing to do with what is currently going on with them. Maybe it's something they now regret. 

I'd avoid rushing to judgment either way...

I am well aware that the Bates Sr. are still in the IBLP fold...and that's them. Their adult children will eventually find their own way in life. I can tell you that I am nothing like the way I was raised...at all. My parents would be turning in their graves if they knew my current religious and political beliefs. I was raised Roman Catholic, a staunch Republican, including listening to Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy on the radio, taking part in pro-life marches. Hell, I did that until I was in my mid-30s. Now? Liberal Democrat, pro-choice, not Catholic anymore...it took years for my beliefs to evolve...give these kids some time. 

 

To me, this is what makes the Bateses adult children different from the Duggars.

Can you imagine Jill and Derick making such a statement regarding Gothard?

There is still no separation or differentiation- ANY, between JB and Michelle's beliefs, thoughts...and ANY of their children's, no matter the age, marital or parental status of those children.

[formergothardite]

If Gothard stabbed Jim Bob in the back and was bashing him on the internet like he is doing Gil and Chad's father, yeah, I could see the Duggar kids making statements like that. 

Gothard made the fatal mistake of believing that Gil and the rest of the board were loyal to him and not to the money. He found out the hard way that they would pick the money over him. I think Jim Bob was never asked on because Gothard knew he would be loyal to money. 

[Jana814]

44 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

Josh had already molested 5 girls by the time the camera crews showed up.  I do think the television exposure added to his smugness.

 

I'm sure it did. He acted as though no matter what he did he could never get in trouble for it. 

[Whoosh]

What is clear to me is that none of these kids (Bates or Duggars or Paines) grew up in a home where their father/parents did the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do.  I would hope that if I stood in any of their shoes I would stand up and say that what happened was wrong and that it is wrong to sweep sexual abuse and assault under the rug and that it is wrong to blame the victim in these situations and that it is wrong to actively participate in massive cover-ups to protect the perpetrator.  Of course, I can say that from the luxurious position of never having to face the reality that all these kidults have had to face.  Thank you once again, Mom and Dad.

If they choose to stand up to Gothard - great (Gil Bates already did that).  I have not seen any of them stand up against the reactions to and cover-ups of the ongoing abuse.

[vienna]

55 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

Really!!  I didn't know that. When was this? 

I will try to search for it tomorrow. They talked about it in one of the early episodes of bub. And stated that they wouldn't promote it.

[SilverBeach]

5 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

Miscarriages are a result of the sins of the mother.  Those teaching is what made me feel so bad for Erin, she'd been raised that it was all her fault she miscarried.

That is an absolutely evil teaching.

[vienna]

23 minutes ago, vienna said:

I will try to search for it tomorrow. They talked about it in one of the early episodes of bub. And stated that they wouldn't promote it.

Found it: It´s the Episode "Courtship & Marriage". Here ist the interesting part  as in a recap:

Gil and Kelly admit that they did not save their first kiss for their wedding. Zach and Whitney intended to but ended up kissing beforehand. They say their parents were very understanding when they admitted what they had done. Zach and Whitney encourage their siblings not to follow in their footsteps.

[HarryPotterFan]

8 minutes ago, vienna said:

Zach and Whitney encourage their siblings not to follow in their footsteps.

In my head I'll just add "and not to make the same mistake of confessing something completely normal to their over controlling parents."

[actuallyjessica]

Miscarriages are a result of the sins of the mother.  Those teaching is what made me feel so bad for Erin, she'd been raised that it was all her fault she miscarried.

That is an absolutely evil teaching.

I know of many non-religious people who say things like "it happened for a reason" "it wasn't meant to be" "maybe you should have..." when they learn of a miscarriage occurring. IMO, it's all in the same vein of placing blame on the mother.

[19 cats and counting]

4 hours ago, roddma said:

Jim Bob and Gil let their kids be around a man accused of sexual misconduct. The Bateses are trying to sell the lifestyle.

Jim Bob let his children live in the same household as a man/boy accused of sexual misconduct.

[SilverBeach]

55 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

That is an absolutely evil teaching.

 

I know of many non-religious people who say things like "it happened for a reason" "it wasn't meant to be" "maybe you should have..." when they learn of a miscarriage occurring. IMO, it's all in the same vein of placing blame on the mother.

That's not quite evil, at least in my book. It is insensitive though. Sometimes the best thing to say when tragedy happens is a simple I'm sorry, and leave it at that.

[grandmadugger]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

If Gothard stabbed Jim Bob in the back and was bashing him on the internet like he is doing Gil and Chad's father, yeah, I could see the Duggar kids making statements like that. 

Gothard made the fatal mistake of believing that Gil and the rest of the board were loyal to him and not to the money. He found out the hard way that they would pick the money over him. I think Jim Bob was never asked on because Gothard knew he would be loyal to money. 

Taking out Erin's comment about Gothard, Zach has said he would let his kids watch some TV (I don't recall any of the Duggars saying that) and Alyssa wears pants which none of the Duggar grls do.  So they have at least done some minor things different than their parents.  I don't think Jessa's leap to Calvinism is really a leap. I also get the impression if you asked Jill what she thought she'd have to ask her parents. 

[elliha]

8 hours ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

Plenty of people (myself included) get pregnant while properly using condoms every single time. ;-)

No birth control is 100% but properly fitted condoms don't break very easily. If a condom is on it will provide a high degree of protection. I know one couple who used condoms AND birth control pills and still got pregnant so anything is possible. But, the thing is that mostly why condoms look bad in the statistics is because many people claim to use condoms but actually do not use them properly (not every time, not the whole time, wrong size). For perfect usage they have the same numbers as some birth control pills. 

[elliha]

6 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

In my head I'll just add "and not to make the same mistake of confessing something completely normal to their over controlling parents."

Yes! I really hope that is what they meant!

[Melissa1977]

I think there are differences between Duggars and Bates as parents. And these differences would be the same if they weren't fundies. There's something weird in JB&Michelle, I'm sure they'd be extremelly controlling and egocentric and even envy of their kids, no matter religión. Kelly&Gil are also controlling, but they seem to enjoy their kids growing up, having independent jobs and are helping them to marry. Yes, only in religious ways, but still. I don't see Michelle helping Jana to catch a boy (as Kelly did to Michael), or being happy with married kids living far, or working outside the family business. 

I'm not defending Bates, but Duggars are even worse.