Jessa, Ben & Spurgeon Part 3

[SweetFellowshipper]

I don't really get "lazy" from the Duggars. Wage work isn't the only thing that makes one "not lazy." They do way more work than I did as a kid! I do get attention seeking, self-righteous, and stingy. I don't mind that they want a lot of money for their huge family or that they're willing to go on TV to get it, or that they have family businesses instead of 9 to 5 jobs. I mind that they're proselytizing and get involved in politics but AREN'T extensively involved in charity. If you're "Christian," that should be a major focus. I also mind, of course, that sexual abuse seems NBD to them, but that's not really relevant to the "lazy" conversation.

[MatthewDuggar]

I'm sorry but the staged scene where JB was grilling Derrick about marital finances makes me so furious. (and this was before we knew Derrick to be a bum)  Such a focus on making sure he wasn't planning on getting into debt, but yet no real facts about how that was going to be possible.  Well now we know, daddy's allowance and grifting.  I can't recall where they put Jill during that scene, I'm imaging her hyperventilating in the next room because she hasn't see Derrick in 10 minutes.

[Bad Wolf]

I remember that scene where Derrick said he wouldn't go into debt if his car broke down. I wondered at the time how he would get to work. Well, now I know. 

[boston2495]

7 hours ago, Gemini said:

This!

rocks... they can have pet rocks! 

Hah, yup, pretty much!! Sounds perfect for them. You can't declaw a pet rock. No worries if it mysteriously goes missing, or you hit it with your sled. #ugh

[Bad Wolf]

Pet rocks work until they're used as missiles.

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

I remember that scene where Derrick said he wouldn't go into debt if his car broke down. I wondered at the time how he would get to work. Well, now I know. 

The whole never go into any debt for any reason thing baffles me, because it's not even good financial advice. It may work for Jim Bob (although cynically speaking, it's working a whole lot better for Jim Bob with the TV show money coming in,) but for most people it's not a solid strategy. 

Obviously too much debt isn't good, but taking on a reasonable amount of temporary debt can actually put you ahead financially and positively affect your credit rating for paying it off. You just have to have a plan for how you're going to pay, and you have to try not to let your debt grow faster than your income. 

In the car example, you may be better off putting the repair on a credit card or taking on a car payment if you can't afford to pay out of pocket than just... I don't know, living without your car or pulling from your savings or whatever Derick's alternative was. If you can still get to your job/school/etc., you can keep your income going and pay it off versus just getting financially stuck because you're temporarily in the red.

Saving up money is incredibly important, but if you're dipping into your savings account for every little thing, it defeats the purpose. If money is leaving savings for every car repair, home improvement, etc. it's not going to be earning interest, and it won't be there when you need it for something like a medical emergency, a big ticket item such as a down payment on a home, or your eventual retirement. The point of savings is to put it aside and not constantly spend down your balance.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here at FJ, but the Duggars treating any debt like the boogeyman seems financially short-sighted to me.

[season of life]

3 hours ago, MatthewDuggar said:

I'm sorry but the staged scene where JB was grilling Derrick about marital finances makes me so furious. (and this was before we knew Derrick to be a bum)  Such a focus on making sure he wasn't planning on getting into debt, but yet no real facts about how that was going to be possible.  Well now we know, daddy's allowance and grifting.  I can't recall where they put Jill during that scene, I'm imaging her hyperventilating in the next room because she hasn't see Derrick in 10 minutes.

They didn't go into specifics, did they? When Jim Bob asked Derick what he would do if his car broke down, all Derick said was that he wouldn't go into debt. I mean, no one wants to go into debt. Did Derick ever point out what he would exactly do in that situation?

[choralcrusader8613]

22 minutes ago, season of life said:

They didn't go into specifics, did they? When Jim Bob asked Derick what he would do if his car broke down, all Derick said was that he wouldn't go into debt. I mean, no one wants to go into debt. Did Derick ever point out what he would exactly do in that situation?

He didn't, or TLC cut away from his response for reasons I know not.

[2manyKidzzz]

19 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

He didn't, or TLC cut away from his response for reasons I know not.

I remember thinking it was rather an "incomplete" answer in their perfect counseling session. Big deal....you won't go into debt, your car is busted and so what WILL you do? Walk?

[jacduggar]

5 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I don't really get "lazy" from the Duggars. Wage work isn't the only thing that makes one "not lazy." They do way more work than I did as a kid! I do get attention seeking, self-righteous, and stingy. I don't mind that they want a lot of money for their huge family or that they're willing to go on TV to get it, or that they have family businesses instead of 9 to 5 jobs. I mind that they're proselytizing and get involved in politics but AREN'T extensively involved in charity. If you're "Christian," that should be a major focus. I also mind, of course, that sexual abuse seems NBD to them, but that's not really relevant to the "lazy" conversation.

I've never thought the Duggars were "lazy" either. Those kids work their asses off for J&B. There are plenty of things that bother me about the Duggars, but their desire for self-sufficient work is not one of those things. 

[socalrules]

 What if you live a big city where taking the bus to work everyday could take hours? I cannot be without a car because I cannot do my job. Sometimes I have to go from one place to another or I am expected to be 120 miles away from home at 830am and be back in my office in the afternoon. How would my not going into debt be a good idea when without a car I would lose my job since I couldn't do it? It's easy to have no debt when Daddy pays for your housing, utilities, clothing and food. They also never take into account that not everyone lives where the cost of living is low. Hell, if I lived in Arkansas,with my salary, I would be living large. Not so much in California. 

[DuggarWatch]

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I remember thinking it was rather an "incomplete" answer in their perfect counseling session. Big deal....you won't go into debt, your car is busted and so what WILL you do? Walk?

Derick's answer then was the same as it is now:  Ask for donations. 

[FlamingFundie]

My personal belief is to buy a car with cash (no payment), and then start socking away the car payment I would have had into a savings account for either repairs or the purchase of a newer car later on. Not rocket science, people.

So when he said he wouldn't go into debt, maybe he meant that they would have some sort of savings account for emergencies (ie, car repairs).

[PracticeMakesProgress]

@Mercer, don't think IFB'ers follow Dave Ramsey, but I'm sure whatever "financial seminar" that changed JB's life is similar in principle. 

The assumption is that if you use a credit card, you are "at risk" for having to pay 15-20% interest on everything, which is obviously more interest out than interest in by leaving money in a savings account with today's interest rates, or even with short-term investment opportunities. There's no room to consider people who pay their credit card balances in full every month, because financial will power just doesn't exist in the credit card-era economy, according to Ramsey-ites.

Also, his/their answer to the car dilemma is a "responsible" person would have at all times, a minimum emergency savings account. Ramsey's 1st step is $1000, which should be enough to cover a basic repair. His specific response if you have a junker/old car that's nearing its end is that you should have a sinking fund, which you purposefully set aside money into, until you've reached a target, which would be the cost of a replacement car. 

How do you magically save all this money? Eat beans and rice, don't go out, cut all entertainment, you should be living in a shack if you aren't already, and/or get extra work. The assumption is, of course, if you're living the biblical model of family life, you automatically have two bread winners able to contribute to family finances. However, I will say Dave Ramsey does at least address the very real issue of single parenthood, and assumes many single family households will qualify for some degree of entitlement programs to help. I'm sure fundie financial seminars assume your "worldly choices" mean you should suffer on the streets, anyway 

The credit score issue is, in my opinion, the weakest part of the teachings. Sure, we all know it's a good idea to be responsible, live within means, yadda yadda. But Dave Ramsey actually argues that a non-existent credit score is ideal - it means you're never in debt, therefore have no payments to prove responsibility. He claims there are banks/credit unions that would give you a mortgage for a house (the only debt he says is OK because of the long-term implications of renting vs. buying). However, to this day my husband and I have yet to find these mythical institutions, so have promptly held onto our credit cards. (Yes, when we went through the seminar ourselves, there was an actual card-cutting party for people!) 

Overall, it's good advice, since a lot of people do fall prey to credit card debt at some point, but it definitely assumes the worst in people when it comes to money. 

@socalrules, obviously you're sinning because you choose to live in California. If you moved to the holy flyover country, you could live like a king and quit putting you and your family at risk. How presumptuous of you to live in an area with actual economic opportunity....  

 

[OnceUponATime]

2 minutes ago, PracticeMakesProgress said:

The assumption is that if you use a credit card, you are "at risk" for having to pay 15-20% interest on everything, which is obviously more interest out than interest in by leaving money in a savings account with today's interest rates, or even with short-term investment opportunities. There's no room to consider people who pay their credit card balances in full every month, because financial will power just doesn't exist in the credit card-era economy, according to Ramsey-ites.

All I'm going to say to this is when I got my credit card here (for online payments!) I was shocked and horrified to find out my credit limit was more than what I was earning in a month working full-time. And no, getting a lower limit was apparently not an option (I tried, they looked at me like I was insane).
 

[Kate11]

5 hours ago, PracticeMakesProgress said:

@Mercer, don't think IFB'ers follow Dave Ramsey, but I'm sure whatever "financial seminar" that changed JB's life is similar in principle. 

The assumption is that if you use a credit card, you are "at risk" for having to pay 15-20% interest on everything, which is obviously more interest out than interest in by leaving money in a savings account with today's interest rates, or even with short-term investment opportunities. There's no room to consider people who pay their credit card balances in full every month, because financial will power just doesn't exist in the credit card-era economy, according to Ramsey-ites.

Also, his/their answer to the car dilemma is a "responsible" person would have at all times, a minimum emergency savings account. Ramsey's 1st step is $1000, which should be enough to cover a basic repair. His specific response if you have a junker/old car that's nearing its end is that you should have a sinking fund, which you purposefully set aside money into, until you've reached a target, which would be the cost of a replacement car. 

How do you magically save all this money? Eat beans and rice, don't go out, cut all entertainment, you should be living in a shack if you aren't already, and/or get extra work. The assumption is, of course, if you're living the biblical model of family life, you automatically have two bread winners able to contribute to family finances. However, I will say Dave Ramsey does at least address the very real issue of single parenthood, and assumes many single family households will qualify for some degree of entitlement programs to help. I'm sure fundie financial seminars assume your "worldly choices" mean you should suffer on the streets, anyway 

The credit score issue is, in my opinion, the weakest part of the teachings. Sure, we all know it's a good idea to be responsible, live within means, yadda yadda. But Dave Ramsey actually argues that a non-existent credit score is ideal - it means you're never in debt, therefore have no payments to prove responsibility. He claims there are banks/credit unions that would give you a mortgage for a house (the only debt he says is OK because of the long-term implications of renting vs. buying). However, to this day my husband and I have yet to find these mythical institutions, so have promptly held onto our credit cards. (Yes, when we went through the seminar ourselves, there was an actual card-cutting party for people!) 

Overall, it's good advice, since a lot of people do fall prey to credit card debt at some point, but it definitely assumes the worst in people when it comes to money. 

@socalrules, obviously you're sinning because you choose to live in California. If you moved to the holy flyover country, you could live like a king and quit putting you and your family at risk. How presumptuous of you to live in an area with actual economic opportunity....  

 

I am actually doing the Dave Ramsey thing right now. It has been very interesting. I'm a little outside of the target audience because I have no debt to pay back, I'm single, and I already have money saved up.  I also disagree with Dave's teaching on credit cards. I do most of my shopping online, which for security purposes, is a lot safer to use a credit card than a debt card. I guess I have more self-control than others because I pay my credit card off every month, and the rewards I get for my purchases are pretty good too. He also has some gender teachings that I don't necessarily agree with. For example, the teaching that all women view money as a security issue, while all men view money as a pride issue. Meaning that in times of financial difficulty all women won't feel the security they need, while all men will feel embarrassed about their financial difficulties.

[EmCatlyn]

On February 26, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Mercer said:

<snip>

Saving up money is incredibly important, but if you're dipping into your savings account for every little thing, it defeats the purpose. If money is leaving savings for every car repair, home improvement, etc. it's not going to be earning interest, and it won't be there when you need it for something like a medical emergency, a big ticket item such as a down payment on a home, or your eventual retirement. The point of savings is to put it aside and not constantly spend down your balance.

<snip>.

I have to jump in with my pet peeve which is that interest does not cover inflation, never mind make money.  My highest interest rate on a money market is less than 2 %.  The five year CD that I didn't move out of the bank's claws quickly enough last year renewed for another five years at a ridiculous 2.3%.  

On the larger subject, while I agree completely that there times when debt is necessary and even a good "investment," there is a problem in our society with people confusing luxury with necessity.  I know people who are driving perfectly good 10 year old cars but are criticized by their peers for choosing not to borrow money to buy a new one. (I am not talking broken down clunkers here.). I know women who feel they "need" to buy expensive clothes every year and then complain about their credit card bills and tell me I am "lucky" I can pay my credit card bill in full most months.  I am not "lucky."  I just don't spend more money than I have on nonessentials, such as designer clothes and make up.  

The Duggars' problem is that they think everything is black and white.  They see all debt as bad (which, as you point out, it isn't) and they think that being stingy and grifting, etc. are fine if they help keep you "debt free."  

[nst]

23 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I remember thinking it was rather an "incomplete" answer in their perfect counseling session. Big deal....you won't go into debt, your car is busted and so what WILL you do? Walk?

that counselling session was a joke, between Derick and Jill - and notice Jill didn't say a thing. No wonder Derick wanted to go on the mission field - can you imagine the real questions they asked him.  And what makes them such experts at everything 

They couldn't talk like to Ben about money because the boy/child was just that. - instead they pretended to discuss about communication. 

 

[enine]

Sorry in advance for the stupid questions coming, but I'm not familiar with the term "pay your credit card bill in full every month". Actually, I'm not familiar with the American credit card system in general (or any credit card system, to be honest), so I have to ask the very stupid questions now:

How do you actually pay your credit card bills? My credit card is connected to my bank account and the credit card company just "takes" the money from my bank account every month. If I don't have enough money, they take it anyway and I'll have an overdraft on my bank account. Is it the same in the US? If yes, how can you not pay your credit car bill? If not, how do you pay your credit card bills? Transferal, direct debit?

If you don't pay your credit card bill at the end of the months, what happens? Do you have to pay interest for the next moths? If yes, how high is it?

Is it very common to not pay your credit card bills in full every months? If yes, how does this system work? I mean.. If you ONLY pay a part of the credit card bill every months and the next month you shop again with your card, you're dept will eventually become higher than your wage?!?

I'm sorry if my questions seem stupid, but I find the discussion really interesting and 

Argh. The edit button doesn't work and I accidentally sent the unfinnished post. 

The last sentence should have been "I find the discussion really interesting and I could follow it more easily, if you answer my questions. Thank you in advance. I tried to google it, but I cannot find anything that answers my questions." 

[Bad Wolf]

Not a stupid question. The credit card company sends you a bill each month with a minimum amount you must pay. You can choose to pay that amount or more up to the total amount of the bill. If you pay the minimum, then you are charged interest on the remainder. People can get into trouble by only paying the minimum and continuing to charge.

[socalrules]

The debt free idea is in many ways bogus on the part of the Duggars. Nearly all the trips they have been taking for years have been on TLC's dime. No doubt that gas for that huge bus was paid by TLC. Their house was finished and furnished by TLC. The weddings paid for by TLC. Likely every party filmed paid for by TLC. I wouldn't doubt that every time they are filmed buying used and saving the difference it is actually TLC doing the buying. 

The Duggars are in the financial position they are because TLC has basically paid for all the amenities and also gives them a paycheck. Without those TLC checks Jim Bob and Michelle would not have as much real estate as they do. The cost of raising 19 kids would have taken its toll after awhile on their finances. Yes they save a lot of money and Jim Bob blew money running for senate early on but does anyone think they wouldn't still eating lots of rice and few veggies if there was no show? If anything those kids would likely have some time of jobs like the Bates kids had to get. It's easy to be high and mighty about being debt free when you pimp your kids out on TV. 

[xlurker]

23 hours ago, PracticeMakesProgress said:

@Mercer, don't think IFB'ers follow Dave Ramsey, but I'm sure whatever "financial seminar" that changed JB's life is similar in principle. 

The assumption is that if you use a credit card, you are "at risk" for having to pay 15-20% interest on everything, which is obviously more interest out than interest in by leaving money in a savings account with today's interest rates, or even with short-term investment opportunities. There's no room to consider people who pay their credit card balances in full every month, because financial will power just doesn't exist in the credit card-era economy, according to Ramsey-ites.

Also, his/their answer to the car dilemma is a "responsible" person would have at all times, a minimum emergency savings account. Ramsey's 1st step is $1000, which should be enough to cover a basic repair. His specific response if you have a junker/old car that's nearing its end is that you should have a sinking fund, which you purposefully set aside money into, until you've reached a target, which would be the cost of a replacement car. 

How do you magically save all this money? Eat beans and rice, don't go out, cut all entertainment, you should be living in a shack if you aren't already, and/or get extra work. The assumption is, of course, if you're living the biblical model of family life, you automatically have two bread winners able to contribute to family finances. However, I will say Dave Ramsey does at least address the very real issue of single parenthood, and assumes many single family households will qualify for some degree of entitlement programs to help. I'm sure fundie financial seminars assume your "worldly choices" mean you should suffer on the streets, anyway 

The credit score issue is, in my opinion, the weakest part of the teachings. Sure, we all know it's a good idea to be responsible, live within means, yadda yadda. But Dave Ramsey actually argues that a non-existent credit score is ideal - it means you're never in debt, therefore have no payments to prove responsibility. He claims there are banks/credit unions that would give you a mortgage for a house (the only debt he says is OK because of the long-term implications of renting vs. buying). However, to this day my husband and I have yet to find these mythical institutions, so have promptly held onto our credit cards. (Yes, when we went through the seminar ourselves, there was an actual card-cutting party for people!) 

Overall, it's good advice, since a lot of people do fall prey to credit card debt at some point, but it definitely assumes the worst in people when it comes to money. 

@socalrules, obviously you're sinning because you choose to live in California. If you moved to the holy flyover country, you could live like a king and quit putting you and your family at risk. How presumptuous of you to live in an area with actual economic opportunity....  

 

There had been a point in my life that I had no debt, for quite a few years.  Because of that, we had no credit rating--it actually came back as "not enough data".  Due to that, car insurance was more expensive, could not get a car loan after the car had been totalled....the list goes on.  It was at that point credit cards slowly became a part of our lives, and our credit is slowly building.  It is a long process.  Not the world our parents/grandparents lived in anymore where if you own your home banks would be willing to give you a loan.....just saying.

Sorry for not clipping it down just to that paragraph--I am slightly technology challenged

[quiverofdoubt]

My husband and I live within our means- for the most part.  for cars we've bought several new cars with 0 or next to it % interest, so it made more sense to pay monthly then to pay a lump sum, because that lump sum sits in bank accounts, ira's, and 401k's raising higher interest.  Our house and property were bought with a decent down payment, and we recently refinanced to a fairly low interest rate, and very short term mortgage.  However, there are huge tax incentives to be paying a mortgage.  And credit score incentives, as well. In fact, we are putting money in tax free ira's and other similar places now so when we dont' have the mortgage as a tax shelter our savings/income won't count against  us tax wise as much. We use debit/credit cards, but pay them down 100% every month and don't purchase things we can't afford, excluding large ticket items that we need and make financial sense. Like our home and vehicles.

[patsymae]

On February 24, 2016 at 8:37 PM, CorruptionInc. said:

If Jessa and / or Bin found that out I wonder who'd decide first when it's best to go to (wherever it is you go for name changes in America) to change Spud's name?! 

Not that Blessa would have any idea about the Black Panthers, but just the idea that some 20th-century Black person from Chicago knew enough to reference "Spurgeon" kind of takes the "look at me I'm so steeped in obscure theology" would take the wind out of their sails, wouldn't it?

[twinmama]

3 hours ago, enine said:

How do you actually pay your credit card bills? My credit card is connected to my bank account and the credit card company just "takes" the money from my bank account every month. If I don't have enough money, they take it anyway and I'll have an overdraft on my bank account. Is it the same in the US? If yes, how can you not pay your credit car bill? If not, how do you pay your credit card bills? Transferal, direct debit?

Here what you have is not a credit card, it is a debit card. It takes money directly from your bank account. A credit card has a limit you can spend, but they'll just keep raising it in my experience. Debit card just runs down what money you actually have, credit cards you can spend money you don't have.