Erika Shupe *grim rictus* Large Families on Purpose Part 4

[nickelodeon]

I think the rationale behind not teaching the girls to drive until they're 18 is the difference between adult and minor learner's permits-- don't permits for kids under 18 require like 50 hours of driving practice under parental supervision before they can apply for the driver's license? I think that when you're over 18 you don't have to spend as much time practicing, and more pertinently, your nasty mom doesn't have to take as much time out of her perfect schedule to accompany you.

Is that correct or am I totally misremembering how driver education works?

[mango_fandango]

@usmcmom SNOMOMS stands for Snohomish Mothers of Multiples. It's mentioned in the Twins: Our Life With Them So Far post. The group is self-explanatory. They hold sales every so often, of items for twins etc. People who aren't mothers of multiples can shop the sales, but mothers of multiples can enter half an hour earlier. And, of course, only mothers of multiples can be members of SNOMOMS. 

[Anonymousguest]

1 hour ago, nickelodeon said:

I think the rationale behind not teaching the girls to drive until they're 18 is the difference between adult and minor learner's permits-- don't permits for kids under 18 require like 50 hours of driving practice under parental supervision before they can apply for the driver's license? I think that when you're over 18 you don't have to spend as much time practicing, and more pertinently, your nasty mom doesn't have to take as much time out of her perfect schedule to accompany you.

Is that correct or am I totally misremembering how driver education works?

Yes, all that is true. Also I don't remember if this is the same in WA, but in OR you also have to prove homeschool compliance. You have to contact the regional esd, show test scores if requested, and then you get an official letter you must show the DMV. I know some people who wait until 18 for permits because they don't want to show test scores, our they never registered as homeschoolers with the state. Now it's all done online, and I wasn't requested to show test scores for the last couple teens. 

[JillsFlowerHeadband]

2 hours ago, usmcmom said:

I loved having an extra driver (or two) once each of my kids received his/her driver's license.  They ran grocery errands for me, picked up dinner when the whole family was running in different directions and got  themselves to sleepovers, etc. When my older one started driving, part of that privilege was helping me out by dropping his sister off and picking her up from her various activities at times.   We actually got each of our kids a debit card - with a very small amount available to them - so they could grab some cash while out with their friends and learn some more complex budgeting and banking skills that a simple allowance didn't teach.  I DID give them my debit card a time or two so they could bring me some cash from the ATM.  Some called me silly for that but we never had an issue with them abusing it. Even if they were tempted, they knew we'd easily catch on just by logging into our bank account to see the transactions. 

I agree, shopping for Erika would be VERY EASY. I'm sure her lists are very detailed. Plus, her girls (not the boys) have always accompanied her to the store so they would know exactly what she normally buys. 

My mama was overjoyed at having extra drivers in the family as we each got our driver's licenses... we kids loved any excuse to drive somewhere so it worked out on both ends. I know there were times when she would have dinner started and realize that she didn't have enough of something, or she'd forgotten some ingredient that she'd say to me "JFH, can you go get me (item)" so she could continue cooking. 

I have quite a way to go before LF is at that stage. 

[Antimony]

2 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I think the rationale behind not teaching the girls to drive until they're 18 is the difference between adult and minor learner's permits-- don't permits for kids under 18 require like 50 hours of driving practice under parental supervision before they can apply for the driver's license? I think that when you're over 18 you don't have to spend as much time practicing, and more pertinently, your nasty mom doesn't have to take as much time out of her perfect schedule to accompany you.

Is that correct or am I totally misremembering how driver education works?

Yep. I imagine Bob would/could do it on the weekends. My stepfather did all my drivers ed hours with me because my mom likes to hit the passenger floormat like it's the brake. In my state, I think it was 40 hours. That much meant we did a lot of road trips on country roads and the like. 

The other question, I guess, is that they have that van. It's much harder to learn to drive a van like that than it is a Camry or something. However, once Karen or Melanie had control of that van, I imagine they'd be golden for all vehicles from then on. 

[usmcmom]

32 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Yep. I imagine Bob would/could do it on the weekends. My stepfather did all my drivers ed hours with me because my mom likes to hit the passenger floormat like it's the brake. In my state, I think it was 40 hours. That much meant we did a lot of road trips on country roads and the like. 

The other question, I guess, is that they have that van. It's much harder to learn to drive a van like that than it is a Camry or something. However, once Karen or Melanie had control of that van, I imagine they'd be golden for all vehicles from then on. 

I agree on their mastering that van.  I was SOOOO mad at my mom when she bought a stick shift when I was 15. I KNEW I'd have to learn to drive on it and it scared me to death.  However, learning on a stick shift was a great thing. It's very easy to go from that to an automatic; the reverse would not be as smooth. Plus, I was rather cool being the only girl in my class that could drive a "stick."  It's also a skill you never really forget. 

I will be curious about how Erika fits driving lessons into her schedule.  Those poor girls....

[Antimony]

14 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

I agree on their mastering that van.  I was SOOOO mad at my mom when she bought a stick shift when I was 15. I KNEW I'd have to learn to drive on it and it scared me to death.  However, learning on a stick shift was a great thing. It's very easy to go from that to an automatic; the reverse would not be as smooth. Plus, I was rather cool being the only girl in my class that could drive a "stick."  It's also a skill you never really forget. 

I will be curious about how Erika fits driving lessons into her schedule.  Those poor girls....

I traveled for sports in college and part of that was we had to drive up and down the east coast. That meant 12 passenger vans and it meant we had to have some of us get a 12 passenger van certification (only a real thing in the world of college liabilities). It was terrifying to learn but it opened up some other job opportunities for me. 

[sawasdee]

Sorry for being so ignorant here, but is a driver's permit the same as a licence? Or is it like the provisional licence that one has in the UK before you pass the driving test? Can you drive alone on a driver's permit?

[keen23]

3 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I think the rationale behind not teaching the girls to drive until they're 18 is the difference between adult and minor learner's permits-- don't permits for kids under 18 require like 50 hours of driving practice under parental supervision before they can apply for the driver's license? I think that when you're over 18 you don't have to spend as much time practicing, and more pertinently, your nasty mom doesn't have to take as much time out of her perfect schedule to accompany you.

Is that correct or am I totally misremembering how driver education works?

These things vary from state to state.

http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/license_laws.html

[defraudingjezebel]

I think Erika is holding out on Karen and Melanie learning to drive so she keeps that extra little bit of control over their whereabouts. I also think that Erika doubts her own children's ability to do many things independently, including bathing, driving, etc. Though I do think that (eventually) they'll learn and Erika will send Karen and Melanie off to shuttle around the little kids to different outings so that Erika can get her "me" time. 

[withaj]

1 hour ago, sawasdee said:

Sorry for being so ignorant here, but is a driver's permit the same as a licence? Or is it like the provisional licence that one has in the UK before you pass the driving test? Can you drive alone on a driver's permit?

In the US, a driver's permit or learner's permit is a limited license that allows a young driver (age was 15 in my state) to be behind the wheel with a licensed adult riding in the passenger seat. It's usually time-restricted, too, along the lines of daylight hours. In my state, when you had both turned 16 and had that permit for at least 6 months, you could then drive alone during limited (daylight) hours. To drive at night, you had to have a waiver, which could be gotten for things like recurring school activities that ran later. 

I don't remember when that permit defaulted to a "full" license -- I think maybe once you had had it for a full year? I think the rules have changed in the last 5 years or so, though.

[princessmahina]

I got my driver's permit at age 15 after passing a written test. I could drive at any time of the day or night as long as I had a licensed driver over the age of 18 with me. Once I got my regular license at 17 (I could have gotten it at 16, but took too heavy a course load to take time out for driver's ed and scheduling tests) I could drive wherever, whenever- it was immediately a "full" license. You do get a different license after you're 21 (in the places I'm talking about anyway) that's horizontal instead of vertical and demonstrates that you're able to legally purchase alcohol. We like to jokingly call it the "adult" license. 

[ViolaSebastian]

I got my permit at 14 (agricultural state, yo, you gotta get a permit to drive those tractors young...).  I could drive only with a licensed driver in the passenger seat. I got my big girl license at 16, after six months of driver's education.  I had no restrictions, but my same-age cousin in Kentucky had to get a driver's permit at 16, spend six months driving under supervision, then got a probationary license at 17 in which she couldn't drive after midnight (referred to as the Cinderella rule), and then  got a full-blown license at 18.   My boyfriend at the time didn't want to take driver's ed, so he couldn't get his until he turned 18.  I was given a pass in driver's ed on the agreement that I would work on my parallel parking...to this day, I really don't know how to parallel park.  

[libriatrix]

32 minutes ago, withaj said:

In the US, a driver's permit or learner's permit is a limited license that allows a young driver (age was 15 in my state) to be behind the wheel with a licensed adult riding in the passenger seat. It's usually time-restricted, too, along the lines of daylight hours. In my state, when you had both turned 16 and had that permit for at least 6 months, you could then drive alone during limited (daylight) hours. To drive at night, you had to have a waiver, which could be gotten for things like recurring school activities that ran later. 

I don't remember when that permit defaulted to a "full" license -- I think maybe once you had had it for a full year? I think the rules have changed in the last 5 years or so, though.

Is there really a state where the permit "defaults" to the license without you having to take a test to earn the license? 

My experience is with the WA laws, where you can get a one-year permit at 15 and renew it if it expires. You're required to pass a test (with a written/computer section and an actual driving section) before getting a full license, and you can take the test at any time after you turn 16. If you pass the test while you're 16 to 18 years old, you get an "intermediate" license with restrictions like not being able to drive with passengers who are under 18 and not related to you. If you pass it after 18, you get a full license with no restrictions. If you can't pass or don't take the test, you don't get a license.  

I've never heard of getting a full driver's license anywhere without taking a test. There's no test required for a learner's permit, or at least i've never heard of such a thing.

2 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

 I was given a pass in driver's ed on the agreement that I would work on my parallel parking...to this day, I really don't know how to parallel park.  

I can't parallel park either! I failed that section of the driver's test but they had it set up so you could still pass the whole test without passing that part as long as the rest of your score was good.

[ViolaSebastian]

In Iowa (at least in the late '90s...) one took a written test only for a permit.  Then, after driver's ed, in the event that you passed the course, you were given a license.  I think the instructor had permission to require that you take a driving test with the DMV, but most kids passed without that option.  So yep, I have never taken a driving test in my entire life.  

 

[withaj]

12 minutes ago, libriatrix said:

Is there really a state where the permit "defaults" to the license without you having to take a test to earn the license? 

My experience is with the WA laws, where you can get a one-year permit at 15 and renew it if it expires. You're required to pass a test (with a written/computer section and an actual driving section) before getting a full license, and you can take the test at any time after you turn 16. If you pass the test while you're 16 to 18 years old, you get an "intermediate" license with restrictions like not being able to drive with passengers who are under 18 and not related to you. If you pass it after 18, you get a full license with no restrictions. If you can't pass or don't take the test, you don't get a license.  

I've never heard of getting a full driver's license anywhere without taking a test. There's no test required for a learner's permit, or at least i've never heard of such a thing.

I can't parallel park either! I failed that section of the driver's test but they had it set up so you could still pass the whole test without passing that part as long as the rest of your score was good.

Ahhh, that's the part I was missing  Written test to get the permit, driving test to get the license. In my state, though, the license itself didn't change -- just whatever was in the computer system. 

[libriatrix]

Just now, withaj said:

Ahhh, that's the part I was missing  Written test to get the permit, driving test to get the license. In my state, though, the license itself didn't change -- just whatever was in the computer system. 

Thinking back, maybe there was a written test to get the permit in my state too. I took driver's ed and that may have been why I didn't need a test to get my permit.

[withaj]

4 minutes ago, libriatrix said:

Thinking back, maybe there was a written test to get the permit in my state too. I took driver's ed and that may have been why I didn't need a test to get my permit.

Mine was a 20-or-30-question computerized test on some ancient machine that I could have sworn was running DOS (and this was early 2000s).

[feministxtian]

I got my license back in the dark ages...I could get my permit at 15 years and 8 months and license at 16. My mother decided that I would not get my permit or license until I graduated high school. Since I skipped a grade, I would graduate 2 months after my 17th birthday...and the mother was a control freak to say the least. My father decided that I would get my permit on time (I took the driver's ed book part in 10th grade). He took me to get my permit and told me not to tell my mother. So...no problem there! He signed me up for the behind the wheel class too. Two weeks after my 16th birthday, he took me to get my license. I'll never forget it. Good Friday, 1980. My mom had to work, daddy was off and so was I. Daddy said he was tired of driving me around and I was going to get my license...so we went to the DMV and I got my license...the deal was that if I failed the test, we wouldn't say anything but if I passed, daddy would tell her. so he did...and there was the explosion heard 'round the world!!!

[19 cats and counting]

4 hours ago, Antimony said:

Yep. I imagine Bob would/could do it on the weekends. My stepfather did all my drivers ed hours with me because my mom likes to hit the passenger floormat like it's the brake. In my state, I think it was 40 hours. That much meant we did a lot of road trips on country roads and the like. 

The other question, I guess, is that they have that van. It's much harder to learn to drive a van like that than it is a Camry or something. However, once Karen or Melanie had control of that van, I imagine they'd be golden for all vehicles from then on.  

My uncle taught my cousin (now 21) to drive on his construction van.  His rationale was that if she could drive that, she could drive anything.

I learned to drive in a compact car (Ford Escort).  I almost wish I had learned on a bigger car or truck/SUV/van (which my family did and still does not have).

46 minutes ago, withaj said:

Ahhh, that's the part I was missing  Written test to get the permit, driving test to get the license. In my state, though, the license itself didn't change -- just whatever was in the computer system. 

When I got my permit, there was a small window in my state where they made the written test 5 questions instead of 20, and they were very easy questions (what do you do when you see a red light?).  You needed 3/5 to pass, I got 5/5.  All my friends took the 20 question one adn prepared me for it.

About 2 months after I got my permit, they gave the test to 3rd graders as an experiment which the majority passed.  After that, they reverted back to the 20.  (This was 1996).

[HRM1216]

I got my license 6 years ago in Ohio. All you had to do for the temps (what we call temporary permits) was be 15 1/2 and complete the test on the computer, which I assume is the same as the written test. Then you were able to drive with a legal driver over the age of 21. Driver's ed was only two weeks I think and then six months later you can get your driver's license as long as your legal guardian signs off that you have driven at least 50 hours and you pass the driving and maneuverability tests.

[feministxtian]

I learned to drive in my dad's Plymouth Fury Custom Suburban station wagon...9 passenger, 360 cu in engine. It was a tank. I can drive almost anything, automatic or stick shift...I highly recommend learning to drive a stick shift...I see all sorts of funny stories of a carjacking or car theft thwarted because the perpetrator could not drive a stick. Its why my Mustang is a stick (well, really a stick is WAY more fun to drive and the theft-proof-ness** is just a bonus)

 

**yes I made up "theft-proof-ness"...

[pnwgypsy]

WA license details http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/steps.html

[mango_fandango]

 I think some people have already seen this as it's pretty popular; but it's *so beautiful* - watching these models being un-made-up and back to their natural selves and singing about accepting people as they are. I was re-watching it with Karen and Melanie because they also love it...and I wanted to share it again with friends...

And this from someone who criticised women for saying their husbands prefer them without makeup. The hypocrisy, it burns.

(Erika linked to some video)

[Paperplate]

How licensing and driver's ed work in the US is ... almost unbelievable to me.

You are barely a teenager (14 is so young), answer three questions about driving and are allowed to get behind the wheel of a car and drive around?!? That just sounds insanely dangerous to me. (It seems to be working though? Maybe because no one drives a stick shift?)

In these parts, you have to be 18 to get your license. There are mandatory theoretical courses (around 15 classes of 1.5 hours each), and you have to study for a test with lots of questions, many of them quite difficult.

Practical driving instruction only happens with a driving teacher in a specially fitted car (two sets of pedals). Many people have never driven before and need to do a few hours to learn how to steer the car, shift gears (pretty much everyone drives stick here) etc. Then they also have to do at least a dozen specialised practical hours of night driving, highway, city etc. It's quite expensive.

They have to pass the theoretical test before they are allowed to take the practical one. I think around a quarter of people fail the written test, and even more screw up on the practical one.

Oh, and I forgot: You also have to get an eye exam.

But if you managed to get your license you get to drive by yourself right from the start. There's also a probation period of five years where you can get your license taken away more quickly for speeding etc.

(Nowadays the rules have changed, and I think you can get it at 17 and then drive with your parents or other adults, but the classes and tests are the same.)