Erika Shupe *grim rictus* Large Families on Purpose Part 4

[Clementine]

4 hours ago, defraudingjezebel said:

I briefly reread her "family planning" post and I've come to the conclusion that Erika is deeply covetous and jealous. We've discussed how she has lamented for years about how she wishes she lived in a bigger home, but I think it goes far beyond that. 

At two or three different points in the post, she mentions being jealous of her neighbors; what they owned, their independence, their financial situation, etc. She always uses that to make a point about her own self-sacrifice but its fairly clear that she truly is jealous.

She also seems deluded about what an "average" family can afford. She lists:

Now I grew up in a pretty privileged upper middle class family as an only child, but even my parents wouldn't have been able to afford skiing and boating along with constant costly vacations. I think she imagines herself as being some huuuuge martyr for her beliefs while everyone else is living the hedonistic high life. 

I've had the same thoughts about Erika. I also wonder how "content" a family in a Western country can be when they never seem to be able to do even the small things that make life fun for modern families: going to the movies, to a restaurant, a fair, take a vacation, an outdoor hike, a trip to a zoo or museum or Disneyland, going shopping with one of the older daughters or whatever.
I'm not saying that it's necessary or "normal" to do all of the above all the time but most families seem to try to take their kids out every now and then. Not Erika. Have the kids ever gone to watch a movie?

The most frivolous activity in Erika's life seems to be going grocery shopping and thrifting every Saturday and then share a pretzel with one of the kids, before it's time to return to her micromanaged life.

I also wonder if any of the kids do any kind of sport activities. They live in Washington so there should be a lot of opportunities to engage in both summer and winter sports. Like taking a canoe trip or go skating.

 

I also looked through photos of their house and the impression I get is that every room looks a storage space, not a home. The only room that looks normal, without things in bins everywhere, is Erika's and Bob's bedroom. The rest looks like a scene from "Storage wars", only better organized. *smile*

[elliha]

I think it is pretty common to imagine that average is better than the way you live. I have heard people who are solid middle class complain about not being able to afford what the neighbors can without even thinking about how the neighbor might buy things on credit or have inherited money and so on. Your own life is always worse than "everyone else's". I think it is human nature.

I am generally quite happy with our life despite the fact that we are well below median income but I do long to take a holiday abroad. I am European too and it is rather common to be able to take holidays at least to other countries in Europe if not every year at least every other year for a middle class family or you save up for 2-3 years and go for a longer trip for example to Thailand or to the US. I don't need to do it every year but a trip to another European country every 2-3 years is something I hope to be able to take when our finances improve. I would be happy to go to the US once in my life but that can wait another 10 or so years.

[mango_fandango]

18 minutes ago, Clementine said:

I've had the same thoughts about Erika. I also wonder how "content" a family in a Western country can be when they never seem to be able to do even the small things that make life fun for modern families: going to the movies, to a restaurant, a fair, take a vacation, an outdoor hike, a trip to a zoo or museum or Disneyland, going shopping with one of the older daughters or whatever.
I'm not saying that it's necessary or "normal" to do all of the above all the time but most families seem to try to take their kids out every now and then. Not Erika. Have the kids ever gone to watch a movie?

The most frivolous activity in Erika's life seems to be going grocery shopping and thrifting every Saturday and then share a pretzel with one of the kids, before it's time to return to her micromanaged life.

I also wonder if any of the kids do any kind of sport activities. They live in Washington so there should be a lot of opportunities to engage in both summer and winter sports. Like taking a canoe trip or go skating.

 

I also looked through photos of their house and the impression I get is that every room looks a storage space, not a home. The only room that looks normal, without things in bins everywhere, is Erika's and Bob's bedroom. The rest looks like a scene from "Storage wars", only better organized. *smile*

The family have been to the cinema in the past. All the kids saw Inside Out, and the eldest five even saw the latest Star Wars film. They also go camping, and they do go "out" sometimes. They've also been skating!

[Clementine]

11 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

The family have been to the cinema in the past. All the kids saw Inside Out, and the eldest five even saw the latest Star Wars film. They also go camping, and they do go "out" sometimes. They've also been skating!

I'm glad to hear that the kids can get out of the house and do normal stuff every now and then!

[OnceUponATime]

38 minutes ago, elliha said:

I don't need to do it every year but a trip to another European country every 2-3 years is something I hope to be able to take when our finances improve

hehe, I'm with you on that but I don't *need* to do that to be happy/content with my holidays. I don't think that should be a human rights issue, or rather even if you wish to consider it one there are more important ones to worry about. I'm someone who is wanting to be able to say I've holidayed in every EU country - I have a long way to go to make that a reality

I just find it weird (coming from a family where pitching the tent in the backyard was our way of affording a holiday - that was normal where I lived) and quite a culture shock to see that sort of behavoir/attitude. It's probably made worse by the entitlement that lots of the kids had. They were always bragging about how their parents were paying for them to go to paris for a week in the christmas 'study break' and then for spring break their parents were paying for them to go to spain, or skiing somewhere (always by themselves, not as part of family holidays). I guess a lot are in for a shock if their parents tighten their purse-strings once they have a real job because those multiple vacations won't be so affordable on starting wages. Maybe I'm just jealous of them (not really I have massively enjoyed the holidays I have been to, no matter where they were), but at least I have the bragging rights of having seen more of their own country than they have.

[elliha]

30 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

hehe, I'm with you on that but I don't *need* to do that to be happy/content with my holidays. I don't think that should be a human rights issue, or rather even if you wish to consider it one there are more important ones to worry about. I'm someone who is wanting to be able to say I've holidayed in every EU country - I have a long way to go to make that a reality

I just find it weird (coming from a family where pitching the tent in the backyard was our way of affording a holiday - that was normal where I lived) and quite a culture shock to see that sort of behavoir/attitude. It's probably made worse by the entitlement that lots of the kids had. They were always bragging about how their parents were paying for them to go to paris for a week in the christmas 'study break' and then for spring break their parents were paying for them to go to spain, or skiing somewhere (always by themselves, not as part of family holidays). I guess a lot are in for a shock if their parents tighten their purse-strings once they have a real job because those multiple vacations won't be so affordable on starting wages. Maybe I'm just jealous of them (not really I have massively enjoyed the holidays I have been to, no matter where they were), but at least I have the bragging rights of having seen more of their own country than they have.

Yes, children just don't need to get everything they ask for, that is the real problem here I think. My daughter is 3 and some of the neighborhood kids where surprised she didn't have an I-pad. Really? A three year old? We do have a cheap tablet which she can use to play games on but an I-pad, an actual I-pad? I find them too expensive even for me as an adult knowing how easily they can break. This is in a low income neighborhood so god knows what it is like in a more affluent one. 

My parents never paid for a holiday for me as a teen without the family even though they could afford it, they made it pretty clear that they were glad to pay for basics like food and clothes but not for things like that. I had a cell phone but had to pay for it myself. Nowadays I have seen parents look at me like I was suggesting they leave their teen in the forest next to a pack of wolves when I suggested the teen could pay for their own phone when the parent complained that they were getting too high cell phone bills.  

[OnceUponATime]

7 minutes ago, elliha said:

Yes, children just don't need to get everything they ask for, that is the real problem here I think. My daughter is 3 and some of the neighborhood kids where surprised she didn't have an I-pad. Really? A three year old? We do have a cheap tablet which she can use to play games on but an I-pad, an actual I-pad? I find them too expensive even for me as an adult knowing how easily they can break. This is in a low income neighborhood so god knows what it is like in a more affluent one. 

My parents never paid for a holiday for me as a teen without the family even though they could afford it, they made it pretty clear that they were glad to pay for basics like food and clothes but not for things like that. I had a cell phone but had to pay for it myself. Nowadays I have seen parents look at me like I was suggesting they leave their teen in the forest next to a pack of wolves when I suggested the teen could pay for their own phone when the parent complained that they were getting too high cell phone bills.  

haha. once when we were discussing holidays some of them where whining that their parents weren't giving them as much money to use on holiday (I thought, get a job and use your own money). I commented there are things like use-it maps in most big cities they were going to and there are always plenty of stuff to do in a foreign city that cost nearly nothing. They looked at me like I had gone crazy. A while later I realized that they probably only went out drinking and were annoyed that their alcohol budget was being cut into.

I've heard 14 year old complain on the train once that their parents wouldn't buy them the latest smartphone. It turned out after listening to them for a while that their current smartphone was only 6 months old (and top of the line) and functioned perfectly <- crazy.
 

Back to holidays (I'll try to make it my last holiday "elitist" post) maybe you can tell me if this is a general european trend. A lot of my former colleagues went to the same location (in a foreign country) on holiday at the same time every single year. They would complain every single year about the same things: packing was a nightmare and they never packed enough local food, their kids would have to miss a particular event they wanted to go to (also set date thing), traffic was a nightmare (one of the bad European 'switch' weekends), the place sucked, the other people who always ended up there at the same time every year sucked, local food there sucked (which they had to eat because of packing issues), night life sucked, the weather wasn't 100% perfect, coming home sucked. and that they always feel like they need another week holiday afterwards to recover. In short it sounds like they hated their holiday. I once made the mistake of asking them why they don't go to a different place then. they looked at me like I grew another head and then went off on a rant about how they always went there. When first working there I once asked people where they all went on holidays to, how they decided which country to go to,... They all looked so confused and said they always go to the same place because that is where they go. I cannot imagine going to the same place every year on holiday. That is a really foreign concept to me - I like exploring new places so my holiday philosophy is to go somewhere new each time so I can get the best value out of my time/money. Thankfully my SO agrees with that.

[elliha]

37 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

Back to holidays (I'll try to make it my last holiday "elitist" post) maybe you can tell me if this is a general european trend. A lot of my former colleagues went to the same location (in a foreign country) on holiday at the same time every single year. They would complain every single year about the same things: packing was a nightmare and they never packed enough local food, their kids would have to miss a particular event they wanted to go to (also set date thing), traffic was a nightmare (one of the bad European 'switch' weekends), the place sucked, the other people who always ended up there at the same time every year sucked, local food there sucked (which they had to eat because of packing issues), night life sucked, the weather wasn't 100% perfect, coming home sucked. and that they always feel like they need another week holiday afterwards to recover. In short it sounds like they hated their holiday. I once made the mistake of asking them why they don't go to a different place then. they looked at me like I grew another head and then went off on a rant about how they always went there. When first working there I once asked people where they all went on holidays to, how they decided which country to go to,... They all looked so confused and said they always go to the same place because that is where they go. I cannot imagine going to the same place every year on holiday. That is a really foreign concept to me - I like exploring new places so my holiday philosophy is to go somewhere new each time so I can get the best value out of my time/money. Thankfully my SO agrees with that.

I know a lot of people who always go to the same place but they are mostly retired people. Younger people in my country tend to have more variation in their choices. Then again a lot of people fall in love with a place and keep going there but they usually don't complain about going to the same place. I do think that in some European countries you don't say that you like something like a holiday too much, it could be bragging which is not always OK. So instead of saying you had an amazing time you might talk about the less attractive aspects of your holiday. Everyone knows you had a good time so you don't overstate that part. I think this is mainly Scandinavian and perhaps German/neighboring countries though. 

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

3 hours ago, elliha said:

I think it is pretty common to imagine that average is better than the way you live. I have heard people who are solid middle class complain about not being able to afford what the neighbors can without even thinking about how the neighbor might buy things on credit or have inherited money and so on. Your own life is always worse than "everyone else's". I think it is human nature.

Yes - This!
I learned long go (I'm in my 50's) that what meets the eye leaves out a lot of factors.  You never really know someone's income unless they tell you of course, they may be living in a neighborhood below their means, you don't know if family is helping them out, or if they have massive credit card debt.  
My ex and I used to take yearly vacations and have pretty nice Christmases, but we'd constantly hear the "OH...Must be nice" from his family.  What they failed to think about was that I was making a bit more than hubby at my job, we stayed in our starter home, kept our cars for 10+ years, and we had no children.  They could've done the same things we did but made different choices.    

[Clementine]

2 hours ago, OnceUponATime said:

Back to holidays (I'll try to make it my last holiday "elitist" post) maybe you can tell me if this is a general european trend. A lot of my former colleagues went to the same location (in a foreign country) on holiday at the same time every single year. They would complain every single year about the same things: packing was a nightmare and they never packed enough local food, their kids would have to miss a particular event they wanted to go to (also set date thing), traffic was a nightmare (one of the bad European 'switch' weekends), the place sucked, the other people who always ended up there at the same time every year sucked, local food there sucked (which they had to eat because of packing issues), night life sucked, the weather wasn't 100% perfect, coming home sucked. and that they always feel like they need another week holiday afterwards to recover. In short it sounds like they hated their holiday. I once made the mistake of asking them why they don't go to a different place then. they looked at me like I grew another head and then went off on a rant about how they always went there. When first working there I once asked people where they all went on holidays to, how they decided which country to go to,... They all looked so confused and said they always go to the same place because that is where they go. I cannot imagine going to the same place every year on holiday. That is a really foreign concept to me - I like exploring new places so my holiday philosophy is to go somewhere new each time so I can get the best value out of my time/money. Thankfully my SO agrees with that.

It sounds like how my grandmother's generation (born in the 20's) would vacation, especially if they were going abroad. It was easiest for inexperinced travellers who spoke very little English to take a charter trip to the same hotel every year where they knew how to get around and was sure that there was Swedish coffee, menus in Swedish and Swedish speaking guides at the hotel.

The people who now go to the same place for holiday every year do it because they like it or own a summer house or condo there. We always have a two week vacation at the same beach town every year, but we have six weeks vacation so we have time to go to other places too. It's nice to come back to the same spot every year and just relax and not to have the pressure of "we need to see/do this before we go home". We usually go to London for Christmas shopping every year and visit our favourite places there too. (I now realize that I have turned into my grandmother... and I quite enjoy it.)

[Paperplate]

I know some people who used to take the same summer holiday every year. Three weeks in France or something. They didn't own property there; they just liked it. Another family liked the aspect of not having to plan everything anew. Saves lots of time. (Unless you're buying prepackaged trips including flight, hotel, rental car, day trips, etc.)

I like going to new places all the time, but I also like to visit friends or go to places where I've lived before, so I sometimes take the same trips again. Travel in Europe can be cheap!

When I was in school, some of my classmates took expensive holidays with their families, but many people also just packed the family into the car and drove to a holiday condo somewhere. Not fancy restaurants or hotels. My family also went camping a lot which is pretty cheap when you just have a tent.

My parents did pay for me to go on holidays when I was a teen a few times, but nothing extravagant. I went on exchange abroad and my parents also payed for that (very expensive). I remember some people being a bit jealous of that because their parents couldn't/wouldn't have payed for them to go abroad too.

When I was at uni most people payed for their own holidays, or just went home to see their parents. Nothing fancy.

[THERetroGamerNY]

From Erika's veggie cheese soup currently on her front page: "...and is a vegetarian recipe outside of chicken broth."

I find it highly odd to call something a vegetarian recipe, and then promptly list something that makes it completely not a vegetarian recipe - isn't this called an oxymoron?

[refugee]

5 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

From Erika's veggie cheese soup currently on her front page: "...and is a vegetarian recipe outside of chicken broth."

I find it highly odd to call something a vegetarian recipe, and then promptly list something that makes it completely not a vegetarian recipe - isn't this called an oxymoron?

Ah, but chicken broth, it's mostly water, there's no chicken in it, so it's all but vegetarian, right? Reminds me of a fundie-light family of our acquaintance. They are so used to cooking with walnuts and walnut oil that if you ask them if there's nuts (even specifically "walnuts") in anything, they answer "no" without thinking about it. I just make a point of finding out what dish they brought to a potluck meal, and warning my nut-allergy family members to avoid it.

[elliha]

6 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

From Erika's veggie cheese soup currently on her front page: "...and is a vegetarian recipe outside of chicken broth."

I find it highly odd to call something a vegetarian recipe, and then promptly list something that makes it completely not a vegetarian recipe - isn't this called an oxymoron?

When I was a vegetarian I would use recipes like this and just make it fully vegetarian by changing chicken broth into vegetable stock. I would also accept eating soup like this if there was no alternative, at least there were no actual pieces of meat in it. I was never a vegetarian because of animal rights, just because I didn't enjoy meat. After 11 years meat free I found that I liked eating meat again and turned omnivore again. Nowadays I often do my favorite vegetarian recipes with meat broth because they often have a deeper taste than vegetable stock.

[Crocoduck]

5 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

From Erika's veggie cheese soup currently on her front page: "...and is a vegetarian recipe outside of chicken broth."

I find it highly odd to call something a vegetarian recipe, and then promptly list something that makes it completely not a vegetarian recipe - isn't this called an oxymoron?

As a pescetarian, (I usually just say I'm vegetarian b/c it's easier) I HATE it when people do this! I know I'm taking a risk eating someone else's cooking and I accept that, but when you KNOW you used chicken broth or ground beef or bacon in your recipe and I ask you about it, please tell me.

As for Erica's jealousy, the Shupes seem to have it better than a lot of the fundies we snark on. Erica does have a nice, if small, house. The kids always look well dressed. She gets her Olive Garden on the regs.

Can you imagine if she had to live Jill Rodrigues' thrift store '80s life? Or live in "genteel poverty" like Lady Lydia?

[JillyO]

10 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

From Erika's veggie cheese soup currently on her front page: "...and is a vegetarian recipe outside of chicken broth."

I find it highly odd to call something a vegetarian recipe, and then promptly list something that makes it completely not a vegetarian recipe - isn't this called an oxymoron?

It's stupid. Why not say "And it can easily be made vegetarian by using vegetable broth."

However, this is neither a fundie thing nor an Erika thing. You'd be surprised at how often people offer you "vegetarian" dishes like chicken (no), fish (no...), or dishes containing fish sauce (again, NO) or chicken stock (NOOOO). So I guess what I'm saying is, at least Erika realizes that the chicken broth isn't vegetarian.

[lawlifelgbt]

6 hours ago, elliha said:

I think it is pretty common to imagine that average is better than the way you live. I have heard people who are solid middle class complain about not being able to afford what the neighbors can without even thinking about how the neighbor might buy things on credit or have inherited money and so on. Your own life is always worse than "everyone else's". I think it is human nature.

I am generally quite happy with our life despite the fact that we are well below median income but I do long to take a holiday abroad. I am European too and it is rather common to be able to take holidays at least to other countries in Europe if not every year at least every other year for a middle class family or you save up for 2-3 years and go for a longer trip for example to Thailand or to the US. I don't need to do it every year but a trip to another European country every 2-3 years is something I hope to be able to take when our finances improve. I would be happy to go to the US once in my life but that can wait another 10 or so years.

If you like shopping and nature, you can save up and come to my state (Minnesota)! We have the largest mall in the US, and in the northern part of the state there's Lake Superior- you can go hiking, see some lighthouses, mess around in boats, and so on. Also, there's the headwaters of the Mississippi River here, too. Not much to look at, but it's in a beautiful forest and it's fun to think that you have jumped over such a huge, major river (yes, you can do that there). I find that a lot of Europeans only visit the coasts, and thus miss out. But all my mom's German colleagues who have visited Minnesota have really loved it.

Rant over. I also think Erika is a jealous bitch.

[princessmahina]

20 minutes ago, JillyO said:

It's stupid. Why not say "And it can easily be made vegetarian by using vegetable broth."

However, this is neither a fundie thing nor an Erika thing. You'd be surprised at how often people offer you "vegetarian" dishes like chicken (no), fish (no...), or dishes containing fish sauce (again, NO) or chicken stock (NOOOO). So I guess what I'm saying is, at least Erika realizes that the chicken broth isn't vegetarian.

No joke. At least Erika knows what a vegetarian is. I've been one for over ten years, and I get so aggravated at people who are like, "but you eat fish, right?" No, because vegetarians don't eat fish. Pescetarians do. There's a difference, and it can make someone like me (who hasn't had any animal flesh in over a decade) very ill if we do accidentally ingest it.

(And then you have people like my dad's family who think it's hilarious to hide meat in things and see me get sick. Creeps)

[StepMonsterInLA]

The family closet is actually in the garage, not a bedroom. It is cold in WA this time of year so school in the garage wouldn't work. 

[keen23]

5 hours ago, OnceUponATime said:

haha. once when we were discussing holidays some of them where whining that their parents weren't giving them as much money to use on holiday (I thought, get a job and use your own money). I commented there are things like use-it maps in most big cities they were going to and there are always plenty of stuff to do in a foreign city that cost nearly nothing. They looked at me like I had gone crazy. A while later I realized that they probably only went out drinking and were annoyed that their alcohol budget was being cut into.

I've heard 14 year old complain on the train once that their parents wouldn't buy them the latest smartphone. It turned out after listening to them for a while that their current smartphone was only 6 months old (and top of the line) and functioned perfectly <- crazy.
 

Back to holidays (I'll try to make it my last holiday "elitist" post) maybe you can tell me if this is a general european trend. A lot of my former colleagues went to the same location (in a foreign country) on holiday at the same time every single year. They would complain every single year about the same things: packing was a nightmare and they never packed enough local food, their kids would have to miss a particular event they wanted to go to (also set date thing), traffic was a nightmare (one of the bad European 'switch' weekends), the place sucked, the other people who always ended up there at the same time every year sucked, local food there sucked (which they had to eat because of packing issues), night life sucked, the weather wasn't 100% perfect, coming home sucked. and that they always feel like they need another week holiday afterwards to recover. In short it sounds like they hated their holiday. I once made the mistake of asking them why they don't go to a different place then. they looked at me like I grew another head and then went off on a rant about how they always went there. When first working there I once asked people where they all went on holidays to, how they decided which country to go to,... They all looked so confused and said they always go to the same place because that is where they go. I cannot imagine going to the same place every year on holiday. That is a really foreign concept to me - I like exploring new places so my holiday philosophy is to go somewhere new each time so I can get the best value out of my time/money. Thankfully my SO agrees with that.

I have friends like this. The ONLY place they go on vacation is Disneyworld. They go every year. Disney is the highlight of their year. I don't understand. Sure. Go once every couple of years. But EVERY YEAR? They even go without kids sometimes, because Disney is "so magical for adults." It's honestly my idea of a nightmare. A real-life Groundhog's Day, where you get trapped in the same thing day after day.

[lawlifelgbt]

Also, I grew up middle class (mom was a well-paid teacher with a master's, dad was a social worker). We had a boat and went on family holiday trips once or twice a year, with either my brother or I also getting to go on a trip to Germany every other year.

But, both parents worked and were older when they had us, so careers were more developed. The boat was a large sailboat on Lake Superior, but they got it for a steal when I was 8 or 9- it was a former racing boat that needed a TON of work both inside and out, as the racers who owned it had barely tended to maintenance. My dad and granddad replaced a bunch of the equipment, repainted the bottom, and carefully scraped, sanded, and redid all the several feet of teak, and my mom cleaned out the inside and replaced all the cushions and covers. Months of work. Winter storage for boats is cheap, as you just cover the boat and leave it outside on a cradle; and with the short summer season, one only pays for four months of summer slip fees.

As for the holidays, my mom ran a student exchange program. The students would comp her airfare, and she could stay with her colleague, who had 2 spare bedrooms. So, just pay for the kid's airfare, trips once in Germany, and food. And we would go to the Gulf of Mexico during winter and spring break, but that was because my mom's friend owned a bloc of four condo units there. She let us stay for (mostly) free; we just paid the cleaning crew that would come in between guests, and for my brother's tennis lessons at the health club she let us use as her guests.

Honestly, I think a lot of what is middle-class normal does come from money, but I also think friendships, skills, and work can get you a lot of those things too.

[elliha]

49 minutes ago, lawlifelgbt said:

If you like shopping and nature, you can save up and come to my state (Minnesota)! We have the largest mall in the US, and in the northern part of the state there's Lake Superior- you can go hiking, see some lighthouses, mess around in boats, and so on. Also, there's the headwaters of the Mississippi River here, too. Not much to look at, but it's in a beautiful forest and it's fun to think that you have jumped over such a huge, major river (yes, you can do that there). I find that a lot of Europeans only visit the coasts, and thus miss out. But all my mom's German colleagues who have visited Minnesota have really loved it.

Rant over. I also think Erika is a jealous bitch.

Wasn't Minnesota one of the places a lot of Swedes ended up settling in too? I agree that most people tend to go to California, New York, Florida or Hawaii and I think you are right in that you get to see a very special view of the US that way. I personally would like to see New York but other than that I would like to go to some more unusual places. A friend of mine went to Pennsylvania and really recommended it but I am sure that there are tons of other interesting places all over the US to go to. It is the same in my country, most people go to Stockholm which is a great place to go to as a tourist but it is still not really "Sweden" and more "Stockholm". 

[lawlifelgbt]

Definitely! I am sure that Minnesota would remind you of Sweden a lot

[OnceUponATime]

1 hour ago, JillyO said:

 You'd be surprised at how often people offer you "vegetarian" dishes like chicken (no), fish (no...), or dishes containing fish sauce (again, NO) or chicken stock (NOOOO).

 

43 minutes ago, princessmahina said:

 I've been one for over ten years, and I get so aggravated at people who are like, "but you eat fish, right?" No, because vegetarians don't eat fish. Pescetarians do. There's a difference, and it can make someone like me (who hasn't had any animal flesh in over a decade) very ill if we do accidentally ingest it.

All I'm going to say I have met way too many self-proclaimed vegetarians who say "but I eat fish". The conversation goes "then you aren't a vegetarian." 'yes I am, I don't eat meat". Those people tend to cause the rest of us to clarify just for certainties sake because we don't know if you fall into the category of 'vegetarian' who knows what a pescetarian is or not.

I usually now just ask guest what they eat. That seems to get me a better response and I don't have to ask as much clarification. I have one friend who says make whatever you want, as long as your salad doesn't contain beasties