Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 3

[Cerealgirl]

I've been reading the book The Sociopath Next Door.  It gives a piece of advice that if someone in your life lies, breaks a promise, or neglects a responsibility three times, you should cut that person out of your life.  One or two of these can be chalked up to mistakes or misunderstandings, but three establishes a pattern that the person is a liar.  I am not accusing Josh of being a sociopath since that is extremely difficult for outsiders to determine, but he has definitely passed the "three lie limit" for Anna.

What was third lie?

4 hours ago, nokidsmom said: Indeed it is however since the molestations occurred before Anna and Josh were married, or even courting, these particular events in and of themselves, while troublesome, were before she was in the picture.    She was entitled to know about it fully though.  Lying about Josh's past to her and Pa Keller either through omission or twisting of the truth to deliberately mislead her and her father (I am leaning toward the latter) that would be the beginning of many lies Josh had to tell to her.  Strike one even before they were married right there.

Count me in as one who does not think Anna and the Kellers knew the truth about Josh before their courtship.  I think JB and M told them that he has sinned in the past, but did not disclose what exactly the sin was.  For all the Kellers know, he could have stolen a candy bar from Wal-Mart and was caught.  

Agreed. I would bet a TTH that Anna and her parents knew NOTHING about molestation of his own sisters. A more likely story was that he was tempted by an "immodest" girl that visited.

[Cerealgirl]

4 hours ago, Valerie3kids said: I just do not feel that Anna will receive any monies from her work for TLC. I feel that JB has those contracts written to behoove JB and no one else. I am sure he has some great story about trust funds or some crap but it will still benefit JB. I feel they all must ask him for funds and explain what they are needed for. I would be shocked if Michelle even is allowed to carry her own debit card. He is a penny pinching smarm who cares for no one but himself. (and his hairspray) I can also see some type of allowance system where he stands there and hands them money each week and tells them how fortunate they all are to have him to take care of them.  

I think the question of who got the money from 19K&C is going to be a major scandal at some point in the future. Maybe not now, but soon the howlers or one of the lost girls is going to realize they grew up on TV and never got financially compensated for it. It'll be like when Gary Coleman sued his parents, but even more bitter, because religion is tied up in it.

All the more pressure for JB to continue providing houses to the kids upon marriage. I wonder what is JD's living arrangement.

I think the reason Pa Keller is great at prison ministry is the same reason he is terrible at vetting husbands: he instinctively sees the good in people and tries to ignore the bad.  It makes him ignore red flags and give people a chance when maybe....they shouldn't get one (or at least not with your daughter).  

Maybe we'll see Josh and Anna moving to Florida for a fresh start with Josh doing prison ministry since he can speak of his own sins. It would be good for him to have to be reminded of his deeds on a daily basis. Have a bite of humble pie.

[bashfulpixie]

7 hours ago, Cerealgirl said:

All the more pressure for JB to continue providing houses to the kids upon marriage. I wonder what is JD's living arrangement.

Maybe we'll see Josh and Anna moving to Florida for a fresh start with Josh doing prison ministry since he can speak of his own sins. It would be good for him to have to be reminded of his deeds on a daily basis. Have a bite of humble pie.

Considering his in-laws, that may be a decent guest.  Plus it would keep him away from any cameras for the stupid specials. But who knows if JB will let him stray that far away. And we all know he's really the one in charge still.

[GeoBQn]

9 hours ago, Cerealgirl said:

What was third lie?

Agreed. I would bet a TTH that Anna and her parents knew NOTHING about molestation of his own sisters. A more likely story was that he was tempted by an "immodest" girl that visited.

1.  The molestations (or at least, downplaying the severity of them).

2.  The two Ashley Madison accounts.

3.  The encounter with Danica

And that's just what we know about through the press.

[Bad Wolf]

9 hours ago, Cerealgirl said:

All the more pressure for JB to continue providing houses to the kids upon marriage. I wonder what is JD's living arrangement.

Maybe we'll see Josh and Anna moving to Florida for a fresh start with Josh doing prison ministry since he can speak of his own sins. It would be good for him to have to be reminded of his deeds on a daily basis. Have a bite of humble pie.

I don't think a prison ministry will put bread on the table for his blessings. He will have to find a real job. Gasp. 

[silverspoons]

19 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I don't think a prison ministry will put bread on the table for his blessings. He will have to find a real job. Gasp. 

How does Anna's dad get paid for it? From what I read Pa Keller had a regular job and house and gave it up for the ministry and bought the trailer (perhaps debt free with equity from the house sale?). We have heard his daughters tell stories of how poor they were when he started the ministry and it sounded like maybe the were living on donations only?

Pa Keller does some JTTH programs in the prisons , so is he paid by IBLP/ATI for this?

I realize the Keller's are not living a grand lifestyle but they have to have some money to pay for power and food etc.

[nokidsmom]

22 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I don't think a prison ministry will put bread on the table for his blessings. He will have to find a real job. Gasp. 

Considering how impoverished the Kellers appear to be with Pa Keller's prison ministry, I would it's highly unlikely it will do enough for Josh, Anna and their likely growing family.   And I doubt that Anna would really like to go back to the life she had prior to marrying Josh. 

[Bad Wolf]

2 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

How does Anna's dad get paid for it? From what I read Pa Keller had a regular job and house and gave it up for the ministry and bought the trailer (perhaps debt free with equity from the house sale?). We have heard his daughters tell stories of how poor they were when he started the ministry and it sounded like maybe the were living on donations only?

Pa Keller does some JTTH programs in the prisons , so is he paid by IBLP/ATI for this?

I realize the Keller's are not living a grand lifestyle but they have to have some money to pay for power and food etc.

I think they borrow from one of the sons who works.

[EmmieJ]

10 hours ago, Cerealgirl said:

All the more pressure for JB to continue providing houses to the kids upon marriage. I wonder what is JD's living arrangement.

Maybe we'll see Josh and Anna moving to Florida for a fresh start with Josh doing prison ministry since he can speak of his own sins. It would be good for him to have to be reminded of his deeds on a daily basis. Have a bite of humble pie.

If and when Josh is allowed to return from his banishment to the hinterlands, I think he will be closely monitored by his headship.  JB will find him some "job," similar to how he found a "job" for Bin.  Most likely, he'll be assigned to help with repair and renovations, and be given some money to pay for groceries, gas, car insurance, and second-hand clothing.  Maybe the leash will be so tight that Josh and family will move into a guest house on the property, thereby saving on the need to pay a monthly mortgage.  What a testament that will be to JB and Meechelle, and Gothard's teachings, that so far all of their married adult children must rely on the generosity of others for financial support.

[Cerealgirl]

Maybe JB will start delaying marrying the kids off. It just means more mouths to feed.

[Valerie3kids]

I don't see smarmy Josh going to live near or with the Kellers. It seems like every time they visited he had snarky comments on their cleanliness and the small place they had as guest quarters. He will stay close to JB as it would be a much easier and cushy lifestyle.

[imokit]

Maybe JB will start marrying off a few girls to people with jobs - an HQ boy or similar.

As it stands - he has 3 girls (yes, I'm including Joy) he can choose to marry off to people who will support them, in exchange for giving up control to headships & possible inlaws.

JD - is working and financially secure - barring any disability/illness I'd be surprised if we see him imploding a la Josh

Joe - is at crown - I presume he has a work ethic to go there (yes I know its not a proper college, but sticking with education in the Duggar house, and successfully getting permission to buck the trend and be the first one to go on to something, gives him the benefit of the doubt).  Benefit of the doubt, also gives him career plans for after.

Josiah - seems to have few economic prospects at the moment.

 

This means that of those over 18 - he has 3 families he has to support indefinately - Josh, Jessa & Jill - plus likely Josiah unless he sorts out his life.

2 who will probably be fine - JD & Joe

3 - who he can sell off, but he might not want to, as he seems to like his girls to marry yes men - will he make that calculation

 

6 more coming through - I agree that they seem flighty and I haven't seen much of a work ethic from them - on the other hand they're teenage boys and that's pretty age appropriate - plenty of them settle once they reach mid 20s.  We can only hope they delay marriage until then.  Some (or all of them) may need housing like their elder siblings.  They may expect even if they don't need it.

 

I'm not speculating on marriage decisions regarding the lost girls, as I think things will have changed by then, we don't how poor the Duggars will be, or how many of the howlers will mature enough to manage things financially, or how things will work out with Jana, Jinger & Joy's marriages and the yes man/financially solvent decision I'm sure JB is currently stressing over with their marriages...

[halcionne]

3 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

I think they borrow from one of the sons who works.

That's the Bateses, not the Kellers. The Kellers have three sons, one of whom is no longer IBLP, and two who are still under 18.

[Justme]

Can Anna get an Annulment rather than a divorce? Do fundies believe in Annulment?

[Bad Wolf]

2 hours ago, halcionne said:

That's the Bateses, not the Kellers. The Kellers have three sons, one of whom is no longer IBLP, and two who are still under 18.

Right. I got confused. Thanks fornsetting Me straight.

[FreeCalifornia]

53 minutes ago, Justme said:

Can Anna get an Annulment rather than a divorce? Do fundies believe in Annulment?

I've wondered that. Although they have been married a long time, I'm wondering if she could allege some sort of fraud on Josh's part. I'm guessing it's unlikely, but I did wonder the same thing.

[Georgiana]

Grounds for Annulment in AR:

• One or both of the parties were too young to legally get married;

• One or both of the parties were mentally unable to understand and consent to the marriage;

• One or both the parties were incapable of entering into the marriage state due to physical causes;

• Consent to marry was obtained through fraud; or

• Consent to marry was obtained through force

In most cases, "fraud" is difficult to prove.  Generally, it refers to someone lying about their identity in a way that nullifies the marriage from ever being legally contracted (such as someone having an alias with an additional marriage).  Even Betty Draper would have struggled to get a "fraud" annulment, and Don was a completely assumed identity.  Anna and the Kellers have already said they were aware of Josh's past "sins", so it would be nearly impossible for her to get an annulment on these grounds.  Everything else happened AFTER the marriage was contracted, so while it is fault grounds for a divorce, it is not applicable for an annulment.

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, Justme said:

Can Anna get an Annulment rather than a divorce? Do fundies believe in Annulment?

What would be the point?  Fundies would still see her as having gotten divorced.  And she didn't bring any money into the marriage that she might be able to get back if there were an annulment.  So a divorce would be just as good and much simpler.

It is not like with Roman Catholics who will need a Church annulment if they want to remarry.

In any case, Anna does not want to leave Josh.  She has been taught that she should stand by him and she probably loves him in spite of what he has done.  She is not going to seek a divorce or an annulment unless it suddenly turned out that Josh had been secretly married all these years and she was his second, bigamous wife.  (Even then she could conceivably follow him into Fundie LDS ...a new take on "sister wives" -- Unknowingly Sister Wives: The Love that You Didn't Know He Had.")

[19 cats and counting]

If their marriage is ended would they be subject to AR or FL laws?  They did marry at the Keller church in fl right? So that means no covenant marriage like the girls have. 

[nst]

3 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

If their marriage is ended would they be subject to AR or FL laws?  They did marry at the Keller church in fl right? So that means no covenant marriage like the girls have. 

I don't think Jessa has a covenant marriage - at least she didn't spout it like Jill did - endlessly - so unless someone heard something I didn't

I think AR laws but than i could be wrong  I forget where they got married - YES florida right  ?

 

[EmCatlyn]

5 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

If their marriage is ended would they be subject to AR or FL laws?  They did marry at the Keller church in fl right? So that means no covenant marriage like the girls have. 

As far as I know, people can get a divorce in whatever state they live in, and they are bound by the laws of that state, not the state that married them.

 Fundies don't like to make divorces too easy, so they would probably require a lot of pastoral counseling and who knows what else, but I think Anna would have grounds for divorce.  It is just that she doesn't want a divorce.

[nokidsmom]

9 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

If and when Josh is allowed to return from his banishment to the hinterlands, I think he will be closely monitored by his headship.  JB will find him some "job," similar to how he found a "job" for Bin.  Most likely, he'll be assigned to help with repair and renovations, and be given some money to pay for groceries, gas, car insurance, and second-hand clothing.  Maybe the leash will be so tight that Josh and family will move into a guest house on the property, thereby saving on the need to pay a monthly mortgage.  What a testament that will be to JB and Meechelle, and Gothard's teachings, that so far all of their married adult children must rely on the generosity of others for financial support.

I suspect that whenever Josh comes back from wherever he is, I don't worry that he will starve nor will his family.   It's been debated here about how employable he is but it's a pretty safe bet he will be on a tight leash and probably working for JB.   He will probably have decent housing in one of his dad's properties, perhaps near the TTH itself, plus financial support in exchange for whatever work he does.

Of all the married kids, Josh might find having to rely on his dad to be a bitter pill.   He was able to work and earn his own income while at the FRC, plus feel some freedom from his parental units but unfortunately that freedom led him to some poor decisions that landed him right back at his parents' doorstep and control.   Certainly he's responsible for his actions but I can see how having gained some freedom that losing it and going back to TTH might be a really tough deal for him.   The girls and their husbands are still in daddy's orbit.    But Josh did get away for a while.  This is one reason why I am doubtful when he returns claiming he's a reformed and changed man, that he will remain so for the long term.

[MakeItSo]

 

What I should be doing: sleeping

what I am doing: thinking about how flippin weird it is that a grown man who has just made some terrible decisions in his life has been banished to some fundie pseudo rehab place and has (supposedly) remained there this entire time. (I did just watch that documentary where kids were kidnapped for Christ and taken from the US to the Dominican Republic against their will and held there for like a year and a half...). 

Obviously legit rehab programs exist. Obviously many people have legit reasons to go to such programs. Obviously I am no licensed therapist. But something about all of this is just plain weird to me. Weird being the only word I can come up with to describe it. And they are all super secretive about where exactly he is etc... so freakin weird. 

And it doesn't seem like he is there to address the really bad stuff he did (but oh yeah that was just "light touching over the clothes"... -__-)...anyway...

I should probably get to bed haha

 

[SassyPants]

12 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I suspect that whenever Josh comes back from wherever he is, I don't worry that he will starve nor will his family.   It's been debated here about how employable he is but it's a pretty safe bet he will be on a tight leash and probably working for JB.   He will probably have decent housing in one of his dad's properties, perhaps near the TTH itself, plus financial support in exchange for whatever work he does.

Of all the married kids, Josh might find having to rely on his dad to be a bitter pill.   He was able to work and earn his own income while at the FRC, plus feel some freedom from his parental units but unfortunately that freedom led him to some poor decisions that landed him right back at his parents' doorstep and control.   Certainly he's responsible for his actions but I can see how having gained some freedom that losing it and going back to TTH might be a really tough deal for him.   The girls and their husbands are still in daddy's orbit.    But Josh did get away for a while.  This is one reason why I am doubtful when he returns claiming he's a reformed and changed man, that he will remain so for the long term.

And that is why you treat a 2 yo like a 2 yo and an 8, 12, 14, 16 yos,....DIFFERENTLY. Because, A) they are different and B so that by the time they are adults, they have a a foundation and frame of reference for making decent decisions.

These folks made the kids take of care of each other, thereby lightening their own load, and then failed on EVERY aspect of parenting with regards to preparing their children to eventually be able bodied, hard working, independent, contributing to society adults. Leave and cleave my azz.

They robbed their kids of a childhood, while stunting and eventually preventing any of them from making a successful leap to independent, adult living.

Last couple on Earth who should have had a mega family- far too self centered.

 

 

[MakeItSo]

I'm so sorry if someone already posted this and I didn't see it but I didn't notice anyone mentioning this article about Anna "rushing" to the clinic to get tested for STD's after she found out about what Smuggar did. 

radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-sex-scandal-anna-duggar-std-test-health-fears/

No other new info but I remembered people on here saying they hope she got tested, etc so I thought I'd leave it here.