Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 3

[BarbaraMary]

@MatthewDuggar - Jon and Kate plus 8. I meant that this rumour of Josh and Anna doing one reminded me of when JandK did theirs.

[RosyDaisy]

I don't believe Josh can be trusted around other young children.

[nastyhobbitses]

Also, I don't think Jana is going to college to get the same type of experiences some 18-22 year-olds think about: Thirsty Thursdays, frat parties, joining all sorts of social justice clubs, staying up all night to watch Netflix (I mean study), living in a dorm, etc. If she wanted those things, 26 might be a strange age, but not impossible. I knew a two guys that were both over 22 when they were freshman and fit in fine. No, I think she would want to go to school to get an education, to have something to do, to get out of the house, or maybe be a buddy for someone else who wants to go.

 

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I would certainly hope that Jana wouldn't dive headfirst into all the hard partying that college sometimes entails! I've seen pretty sheltered kids do that and it ended in flunking out of school for one kid, and putting studies on hold to go to rehab for another.

And to the bolded: one of my really good friends in undergrad was a guy who started freshman year at 21, though that was because he was Singaporean and had to do his two years of military service. He fit right in, since he could buy booze and told everyone really funny stories of his time as a soldier (and was just a cool dude in general). Another guy I was friends with in college was in his 30s when he started, since he'd served in the Marines for a while. Again, he fit in well. He took up a sort of Cool Uncle role, but eventually no one in my friend group really noticed the age gap. He was just a cool guy who happened to have been on this earth for about 10 years longer than we had.

[metheglyn]

I just graduated college and I'm Jana's age... It's fine, actually I was a sister-mom and finally got the chance to experienced the things young people get to do... It was fun and I graduated with honors. I think Jana would do great at college in both social and academic aspects. And because I'm older I'm waiting no time to get into graduate school next year hopefully! I wish Jana would get a bachelor's and keep going with her studies.

Good luck with your grad school application(s)!

[HarleyQuinn]

There's nothing wrong with older people being in college. I think that's why the term "college-aged" always bothered me. I consistently had older students in my classes with me. 

Back OT, I hope Anna and Josh don't do any sort of vow renewal. That sounds terrible.

Also, with all these pictures they're posting of Meredith, I can't help but think it's pretty impressive that all their kids have the exact same fat head. lol They all look identical to the next.  (I'm not using "fat" as an insult, it just fits better than "huge")

[Guest]

On 12/1/2015, 6:45:13, ksgranola1 said:

All of that is really old info. Jana was considering going to college 6 or 8 years ago. It would be really hard for her to fit in now, at 26. Obviously, this rag looked up Duggar on the internet & made all that story up.

Not true. I'm almost 26 and I'm a full time student. There are plenty of us around.

[tehfanglyfish]

On 12/1/2015, 9:56:53, EmCatlyn said:

A lot of times the older students are the best because they are past the insecurity and silliness of those who are still finding out who they are.  

As a faculty member, I can say than "non-traditional" aged students (as in older than 18-24) can be some of the best students in a classvbecause they're in college because they want to be there and not because a parent forced them to go. 

 

Which isn't to say that there all younger students hate college, are forced, etc. I just see more of it in the younger crowd with parents basically threatening to cut off the money train if their kid doesn't go to school.

[GeoBQn]

I've been reading the book The Sociopath Next Door.  It gives a piece of advice that if someone in your life lies, breaks a promise, or neglects a responsibility three times, you should cut that person out of your life.  One or two of these can be chalked up to mistakes or misunderstandings, but three establishes a pattern that the person is a liar.  I am not accusing Josh of being a sociopath since that is extremely difficult for outsiders to determine, but he has definitely passed the "three lie limit" for Anna.

[nokidsmom]

30 minutes ago, GeoBQn said:

I've been reading the book The Sociopath Next Door.  It gives a piece of advice that if someone in your life lies, breaks a promise, or neglects a responsibility three times, you should cut that person out of your life.  One or two of these can be chalked up to mistakes or misunderstandings, but three establihes a pattern that the person is a liar.  I am not accusing Josh of being a sociopath since that is extremely difficult for outsiders to determine, but he has definitely passed the "three lie limit" for Anna.

This reminds me of a quote from Ian Fleming:

“Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action”

Anna should frankly see Josh as the enemy to her and her family's well being.

[RosyDaisy]

Child molestation is more than lying or breaking a promise.

[2manyKidzzz]

36 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Child molestation is more than lying or breaking a promise.

Child molestation could probably count as at least two, perhaps the entire three. 

She won't leave him. Sad. 

[nokidsmom]

25 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Child molestation is more than lying or breaking a promise.

Indeed it is however since the molestations occurred before Anna and Josh were married, or even courting, these particular events in and of themselves, while troublesome, were before she was in the picture.    She was entitled to know about it fully though.  Lying about Josh's past to her and Pa Keller either through omission or twisting of the truth to deliberately mislead her and her father (I am leaning toward the latter) that would be the beginning of many lies Josh had to tell to her.  Strike one even before they were married right there.

[19 cats and counting]

4 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Indeed it is however since the molestations occurred before Anna and Josh were married, or even courting, these particular events in and of themselves, while troublesome, were before she was in the picture.    She was entitled to know about it fully though.  Lying about Josh's past to her and Pa Keller either through omission or twisting of the truth to deliberately mislead her and her father (I am leaning toward the latter) that would be the beginning of many lies Josh had to tell to her.  Strike one even before they were married right there.

Count me in as one who does not think Anna and the Kellers knew the truth about Josh before their courtship.  I think JB and M told them that he has sinned in the past, but did not disclose what exactly the sin was.  For all the Kellers know, he could have stolen a candy bar from Wal-Mart and was caught.  

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, tehfanglyfish said:

As a faculty member, I can say than "non-traditional" aged students (as in older than 18-24) can be some of the best students in a classvbecause they're in college because they want to be there and not because a parent forced them to go. 

Which isn't to say that there all younger students hate college, are forced, etc. I just see more of it in the younger crowd with parents basically threatening to cut off the money train if their kid doesn't go to school.

I agree. There are a lot of highly motivated younger students in my classes, but the percentage of highly motivated students is considerably higher among the older students.  As you say, there is a difference between wanting (and paying for) education and being in school because parents give you no choice or because you don't want to have to go out and work yet.

The only problem I have ever had with older students has been when they are determined to show everyone that they are superior because they are older/more experienced.  Their motivation is not to learn but to acquire an academic degree that validates them.  They can give younger professors a hard time, especially if the younger professor is female and they are male.  And in some cases they cannot understand that "class discussion" isn't meant to be an opportunity for them to give a monologue.  

These cases are relatively rare.  Most older students have enough maturity to recognize that they are there to learn and to respect  the dynamics of class discussion.  So in general, they do well in the college environment.

[MakeItSo]

I do wonder if maybe the Keller parents knew but because they believe in the same convictions found that Boob and Meechelle handled it correctly (as far as I understand, they handled it according to Gothardite proceedings in family abuse matters) and so they felt like it was ok.* (?) I do wonder if they ever told Anna though. 

*(I am, of course, complete speculating)

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, GeoBQn said:

I've been reading the book The Sociopath Next Door.  It gives a piece of advice that if someone in your life lies, breaks a promise, or neglects a responsibility three times, you should cut that person out of your life.  One or two of these can be chalked up to mistakes or misunderstandings, but three establishes a pattern that the person is a liar.  I am not accusing Josh of being a sociopath since that is extremely difficult for outsiders to determine, but he has definitely passed the "three lie limit" for Anna.

Well, I would say that it depends on the seriousness of the lies/broken promise and the context.  

A friend who always arrives late despite fervent promises to be on time may not be someone you want to cut out of your life until/unless s/he is best man/maid of honor at your wedding and shows up late for that. (Though why you would ask someone with a punctuality problem to play such an important role in your wedding without also assigning someone else to get them to the church on time, I don't know.). In contrast, a friend who offers to pick up your kid from daycare for you and forgets should not get a second chance, never mind the third.

However, I agree that no matter how you look at it, Anna has given Josh all the chances he deserved.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Count me in as one who does not think Anna and the Kellers knew the truth about Josh before their courtship.  I think JB and M told them that he has sinned in the past, but did not disclose what exactly the sin was.  For all the Kellers know, he could have stolen a candy bar from Wal-Mart and was caught.  

I suspect the Kellers got more information than just that he sinned; they were probably told something about inappropriate touching (over the clothes) of girls when Josh was a young teen. Remember that there were rumors in the town and probably among over ATI circles.  They had to say something that would explain away any rumors and make it seem like full disclosure.

I think I remember Daniel (her brother) or one of her close friends saying something in an interview about how Anna may have been told about the molestations but that she would have been too innocent to understand what it all meant.  I took that to mean that she would not have understood that molesting a woman gives a man like that a sexual thrill, that she thought the molestation was just curiosity on the same level as peeking to find out what someone got you for Xmas before it is time to open presents.

Anyway, I agree the Kellers, and especially Anna, had no real idea about Josh's ongoing problems with porn as well as the molestation.

[Dandruff]

I think the Kellers probably got a light version of the truth - enough for the Duggars to say they disclosed it, but not enough to make Pa Keller realize he shouldn't OK the courtship.  I highly doubt the Kellers were told that Josh did it to five different girls.  What father would say yes after that?

[gustava]

5 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I think the Kellers probably got a light version of the truth - enough for the Duggars to say they disclosed it, but not enough to make Pa Keller realize he shouldn't OK the courtship.  I highly doubt the Kellers were told that Josh did it to five different girls.  What father would say yes after that?

Uhhhhh.....A father who wanted his daughter married to fundie royalty?

[foreign fundie]

31 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Well, I would say that it depends on the seriousness of the lies/broken promise and the context.  

A friend who always arrives late despite fervent promises to be on time may not be someone you want to cut out of your life until/unless s/he is best man/maid of honor at your wedding and shows up late for that. (Though why you would ask someone with a punctuality problem to play such an important role in your wedding without also assigning someone else to get them to the church on time, I don't know.). In contrast, a friend who offers to pick up your kid from daycare for you and forgets should not get a second chance, never mind the third.

However, I agree that no matter how you look at it, Anna has given Josh all the chances he deserved.

The problem is that among evangelical Christians there is a lot of confusion about the 7 times 70 rule. Jesus taught that, like we have been forgiven many times over, we should always forgive others. But that does not mean that a forgiven person has the right to stay in the same position or relationship to us. Particularly when inflicting serious damage and the above 'three times is a pattern' rule has been satisfied. 

You can forgive a cheating husband and still get a divorce. You can forgive an abusive parent and still refuse contact. You can forgive an unreliable friend and still decide to do no more business with them. 

The (very important) point I got from the book about sociopaths, is that you should do everything you can to make sure to stay out of their field of influence. So I got away from a very destructive boss who had gotten way beyond just three.

[jqlgoblue]

1 hour ago, MakeItSo said:

I do wonder if maybe the Keller parents knew but because they believe in the same convictions found that Boob and Meechelle handled it correctly (as far as I understand, they handled it according to Gothardite proceedings in family abuse matters) and so they felt like it was ok.* (?) I do wonder if they ever told Anna though. 

*(I am, of course, complete speculating)

Agreed. It's actually pretty likely that Pa Keller knew. In their circles it seems a lot of men 'struggle' with this type of thing and they view it as an extraordinarily common problem in the non-Christian world. Pa Keller also would have been totally on board with the actions JB took as those are inline with Gothard's teachings. Keep in mind he works to rehab prisoners based on IBLP teachings, so he thinks nothing of very violent people turning around because of God. Josh's infraction likely seemed relatively small in comparison, especially given how they view women. Ma Keller and Anna might have been told the 'lite' version of the story, and especially for Anna I'd be surprised if it didn't go over her head based on how sheltered she was.

[Georgiana]

Pa Keller is one of the WORST Fundie Fathers for approving courtship partners.  Anna's eldest sister ended up living in a pop-up camper with her then 6 or 7 young children while her husband quit his job and begged for money to drag the family to Zambia and beg for money from there. Anna's elder sister married a man who didn't want to get married until his mother made fun of him.  He now seems to resent his marriage and takes that out on his wife.

I think the reason Pa Keller is great at prison ministry is the same reason he is terrible at vetting husbands: he instinctively sees the good in people and tries to ignore the bad.  It makes him ignore red flags and give people a chance when maybe....they shouldn't get one (or at least not with your daughter).  

[EmmieJ]

On 12/5/2015, 1:09:33, lost martian said:

Not true. I'm almost 26 and I'm a full time student. There are plenty of us around.

When I finally decided I wanted to go to college, I was 21.  The reason I delayed was because when I graduated high school, I was dating a guy and it was serious, leading to marriage.  Thank goodness, it didn't work out (he was a good guy, but already stuck in his ways - we would have ended up divorced for sure).  So I had been working full time, had been living on my own and supporting myself, all before I decided to go to college full time.  The college I attended tried to pair roommates of similar ages, and I had no trouble making friends and having a good time.  But as to Jana - I just cannot imagine her attending college at this point.  I just hope she somehow gains some independence, no matter how minor.  That alone would be a victory.

[Bad Wolf]

7 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I think the Kellers probably got a light version of the truth - enough for the Duggars to say they disclosed it, but not enough to make Pa Keller realize he shouldn't OK the courtship.  I highly doubt the Kellers were told that Josh did it to five different girls.  What father would say yes after that?

My sister's husband cheated on her, and my dad was ready to hire a hit man. Fortunately, he didn't know hoe.  Pa Keller is a wimp not to offer support and protection to Anna. I guess he's not her headship, so he feels no obligation. 

[PracticeMakesProgress]

To echo what has been said above, I do think evangelicals get caught between the proverbial rock and hard place:  logic dictates they should punish/relegate those around them that have committed egregious acts, inconsistent with their positions in life, and religion dictates a forgiving and loving spirit. My balance for this has always been to compare what the duties of the job/role are to the poor choices that are made. If a person in question was being PAID to be "holy," and failed to do so, then frankly he/she should be called out, fired, shunned, distanced, and so forth.

In Josh Duggar's case, he was a figurehead for the FRC. He was (why?) paid to parade his "ideal" family around, espousing a value set that did NOT include infidelity, pornography, and absolutely did not encourage white washing of child molestation. He deserves to be fired, reprimanded, publicly denounced, etc., etc., because he was essentially the poorest of employees and a failure according to his job requirements (to say the least). Moreover, he'd spent the better part of a decade in America's supposed holy answer to the Kardashians, and while it's hard to hold the minors/howlers accountable for their parents' actions, if the family fails to meet the bill, they deserve to be cut off.

This does not mean they can't be forgiven and accepted from a spiritual perspective, but it is hard as a person to separate those two ways of handling a prickly situation. I would imagine Pa Keller, since he interprets what is clearly wine with all it's alcoholic glory as Welch's grape juice (a product not available until after even the Mormon bible came around), he probably is sincere in trying to live the "70 times 7" rule, even if it puts his own daughter at risk