Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 3

[Catey]

How horrible will her life be. I just really hope she doesn't become one of those women living lives of quiet desperation that end up taking it out on their kids.

He is not just a cheater, he is a bang anything that moves any chance he gets cheater and now she knows it.

Imagine the stress everytime you see him on his phone texting, or working at the computer or every time he walks out the door. That sick feeling in her gut will kick in, she will either become really clingy and desperate or just stay cold and get colder and colder neither option is ideal for parenting.

I am sorry but there is more to staying then just doing the right thing I really hope that she gets ALL that decision comes with, yet somehow I doubt that she does.

She WAS the victim, however she now has choices to make and now she is the one that stands to start victimizing her kids. When you are not taking good care of Momma there is no way you are being the best you, that you can be, I just hopes she finds an option that not only works for her need to please others but also works for her childrens need to grow up in a world with a open loving mother who I would like to think is also a decent role model.

[Cerealgirl]

39 minutes ago, Seven Severn said: What was that, though? Was it real love and sexual attraction early on? Or was Anna just the way for Josh to get out of the house? His unhappiness in his marriage had to have been festering for a while before he acted on it; people don't just wake up one day suddenly dissatisfied with their marriage and immediately fuck around -- it tends to creep up over time. So how long was he unhappy before he took the plunge into adultery? One year? Two? Four? How early did he realize he'd made a mistake? What they had before may not have existed for a significant amount of time, if ever, if you know what I mean. Anna was living a lie for some time without even realizing it.

Well, the Reddit AMA by the ATI defector outright stated that their marriage was pretty much an arranged one. I wouldn't be surprised if Josh thought Anna was cute and nice, but wasn't really ever in love with her. But she was his ticket out, and he'd get to have all the sex he wanted and wouldn't get sent away for it, so he figured it was a good enough deal. I think he tried to be a good husband at some point out of genuine desire to be a good man or out of desire to play the role of "Good Husband" for the cameras (take your pick depending if you're on Team Josh Is A Victim of His Upbringing But a Good Person Deep Down or on Team Josh Has Always Been A Sociopath And His Upbringing Just Made It Worse), but...well, when you take an already rather selfish/screwed-up manchild with poor impulse control, marry him off to someone he doesn't really love, and then give him unrestricted internet access, you've got a recipe for a sleazy cheater who will blame everyone but himself.

The more I think about it the more I think sociopath. Sociopaths mimic behaviors that they think they are supposed to exhibit because they don't have true sincerity. I always thought that the way he spoke and carried himself in the early tv specials was weird. He spoke to the camera like he was one of the grown ups. It was very affected. He always presented himself as very confident and all knowing. Even up to the wedding and having "the talk" with JB. You'd think that would be awkward but he was creepily all about taking about pleasuring his soon to be wife. His upbringing may have convinced him to try to be a certain type of person, but ultimately his selfish desires couldn't be contained.

[luv2laugh]

On 12/7/2015 at 10:19 PM, Georgiana said:

Pa Keller is one of the WORST Fundie Fathers for approving courtship partners.  Anna's eldest sister ended up living in a pop-up camper with her then 6 or 7 young children while her husband quit his job and begged for money to drag the family to Zambia and beg for money from there. Anna's elder sister married a man who didn't want to get married until his mother made fun of him.  He now seems to resent his marriage and takes that out on his wife.

 

I didn't know there was a reddit AMA.  Where can I find it?

[VixenToast]

...but ultimately his selfish desires couldn't be contained.

Metal as F! \m/ (^▼^) \m/

Aaaah desires. It's ridiculousness can be summed up like so:

Book of Shakespeare, R&J 2:6

"These violent delights have violent ends

And in their triumph die, like fire and powder,

Which, as they kiss, consume. The sweetest honey

Is loathsome in his own deliciousness

And in the taste confounds the appetite."

I quote Shakespeare like the bible. That's how cool I am.

[Cerealgirl]

@vixentoast HAHA! I'll take metal as a compliment.

...and how bad is it that I know that quote from New Moon?

[Trynn]

19 minutes ago, vienna said: Regarding what they tell the M kids about their Dad: I really think they tell Mack the truth and try to explain it to her in a way that fits for her age. With everything going on they have to. I fear in the long run the kids have to suffer among their curch community and other misguided people because of their dad's sinn. In their world it is hard to be an adulter's kid.

When my youngest was six, I left her dad and moved 60 miles away in large part because he didn't want the divorce and I knew I needed space from him.  After a year, almost exactly, he realized I wasn't coming back and attacked me.  Our youngest was seven when I had to tell her that daddy was in 'adult time out' because of really bad choices and she wouldn't be seeing him again for a long time.  This way of explaining it to her was advised by the child  psychologist I spoke to as the best way for her to process the news.  You can't keep things like this from children, lie to them about it, or gloss over it.  All you can do is reassure them that you (Anna) are there for them.

This! When I was a kid, my parents tried to hide things from me. It didn't work because of how close I was to our extended family, and how small our church was. Eventually I told them "dad, I know something is going on. And I think it's best I hear it from you instead of whatever second hand source."

I was 12, and my parents weren't going to bother telling me that his boy I was friends with and spent time alone with www a child molester. Like, thanks dad, I would've been alone with him otherwise.

I swear some adults think kids are so STUPID.

[VixenToast]

@vixentoast HAHA! I'll take metal as a compliment.

...and how bad is it that I know that quote from New Moon?

Not bad at all! It was a fitting prologue.

[apandaaries]

On 12/13/2015 at 1:49 PM, Catey said:

How horrible will her life be. I just really hope she doesn't become one of those women living lives of quiet desperation that end up taking it out on their kids.

He is not just a cheater, he is a bang anything that moves any chance he gets cheater and now she knows it.

Imagine the stress everytime you see him on his phone texting, or working at the computer or every time he walks out the door. That sick feeling in her gut will kick in, she will either become really clingy and desperate or just stay cold and get colder and colder neither option is ideal for parenting.

I am sorry but there is more to staying then just doing the right thing I really hope that she gets ALL that decision comes with, yet somehow I doubt that she does.

She WAS the victim, however she now has choices to make and now she is the one that stands to start victimizing her kids. When you are not taking good care of Momma there is no way you are being the best you, that you can be, I just hopes she finds an option that not only works for her need to please others but also works for her childrens need to grow up in a world with a open loving mother who I would like to think is also a decent role model.

I keep thinking of her interview clip, where she says "if [she] went with [her] feelings, [she'd] turn a mess into a disaster."  It sums up so much for her -- trained to deny her feelings, and still doing the same.  Continuing to do as others say, instead of thinking for herself.  And the "turn a mess into a disaster" sounds like some platitude that's been shared with her as "wise words" that she's now repeating ad infinitum.  

Like so many others, I wish she would get real help, but I doubt that's being offered or that she knows how to seek that out for herself at this time. But I do think that those pesky feelings will become even peskier once her no-good husband returns.  I agree that she'll end up on one of two paths: clingy, anxious, and worried, or distant, cold, and flat.  

I also doubt Josh's ability for true reform.  He was brought up to see women as servants and sexual playthings, whereas men were the true leaders and decision makers.  He was a golden boy in that culture, and he was known around the Arkansas state house as a future politician during Rim Job's reign.  It must have all seemed so easy to him, until he realized that a life well-lived requires discipline.  Discipline was never a strong Duggar trait.  

I definitely believe that the Anna-Josh match was one made for cameras and an attempt to get Josh away from sinful temptation.  I think they believed it would suffice.  Those two had almost no life experience, and we all remember the sexual tension expressed via hand sex.  But then after a move and a few kids (including one whose birth he napped through), Josh wasn't looking well and it was Anna saying weird things about more kids when they watched a cow deliver a calf (remember that weirdness?).  She seems fully committed to this life, but Josh has repeatedly broken the rules laid out before him.  I expect that their reunion will be all kinds of awkward.

 While I wish that Anna would leave, I think it will be up to Josh to break things off.  If the family doesn't truly welcome him back, if he sees naught but constant shame in his future, if he feels powerless enough, I suspect he might try to get away and really live. Anna's brainwashing is thorough; she's probably blaming herself a lot for this debacle, though it's entirely his fault.  She doesn't seem to really recognize or respect her feelings, and no one will take her to real therapy to understand that feelings are okay and valuable.  

I don't think Josh respects her (I hate his rolling eyes when she speaks, as wtffundiefamilies.tumblr's screengrabs show), but I don't think he beats her, either, and it would take quite a bit more abuse to get her motivated to get out of there.  She's used to seeing women's feelings ignored, overlooked, or under valued, and that's not sufficient to get anyone excused from her marriage vows.  Another scandal might get her in motion, but for now, if they part, my money's on Josh being the one walking, not Anna.  Even then, it'd take another several months or years.  Duggar damage control is in full effect right now.

[InThePrayerCloset]

On 12 December 2015 at 5:43 PM, InThePrayerCloset said:

There was a white collar criminal in Sydney who became infamous for telling his kid "daddy was naught and has to go to his room..." when he  went to jail...

 

And I just remembered that i often appear before justice david davies...

[Zola]

On 12/13/2015 at 9:31 PM, Marissap said:

That's the thing....I don't think Anna is seeming sad at home. Just a guest obv but I would put money that she's keeping sweet even now. Sure she may cry in her pillow but I don't think she's showing weakness in front of others, least not her kids. 

When my dad died suddenly and unexpectedly, I had a son who was not quite two and I also babysat a friend's 5 year old every day after kindergarten until about 8 pm (I had been babysitting this child daily since she was four months old, so she was quite like my own child.)

I would set aside personal time every day to mourn my dad and cry my heart out, but I didn't do it front of the children, and as far as I know, they were unaware that I was doing so. They knew I was sad and missing him, but I didn't feel it was appropriate to openly express the depth of my grief in their presence. I thought it might be extra painful for them, as they were also close to my dad and missing him as well...and I also worried that it may have even be scary for them to see how deeply distraught I was. We did occasionally discuss how we felt, but I reserved my real feelings for when I was alone.

I assume Anna is doing the same. As for what she's telling her children about where their daddy is, I should think she's told them he's working, on a long speaking tour or whatnot (as if he works! but the little kids don't know that, or need to know that) and they will see him home as soon as he can return. 

[nokidsmom]

@amandaaries you have expressed exactly how I feel about Josh and Anna on multiple points.   At no point have I felt that Anna would leave even when her brother publicly supported her doing so.   As you say, she's totally committed to him and their lifestyle, she sees no other options because that's how she has been raised.  Her upbringing and surroundings totally prevent her getting any real help.  It's not going to be offered because it's just not done in their circles and she's surrounded by in-law family who up screwed getting real help for their errant son and even today haven't figured out that they handled it all wrong.   She's not going to even think that maybe her feelings warrant anything.   She's convinced that Josh will come back all "fixed" and they will resume their life as before with no idea that now there's going to be a big elephant in the room.

While Josh is responsible for his actions and he's shown himself to be a scumbag, it's clear that he's not happy or willing to lead the life that he's expected to lead.   Add to the constant shaming that we can expect he will endure for the rest of this life (the special made that abundantly clear IMHO) he might just decide that he has nothing more to lose by leaving.

[MyMilkshake]

I'm thinking Anna probably did contemplate leaving Josh but had huge pressure from her parents and the Duggars to stay and try to work through it. I can see both sides telling her, "Marriage isn't all smooth sailing, sometimes there's storms you must face and you can come through this stronger than before, blah blah blah.." And they probably laid the "Your children will have to grow up in a broken home, think of those kids you have together, blah blah blah.."
I was hoping Anna could start seeing her situation more clearly in Josh's absence but it's not looking that way right now.

[nokidsmom]

10 minutes ago, MyMilkshake said:

I'm thinking Anna probably did contemplate leaving Josh but had huge pressure from her parents and the Duggars to stay and try to work through it. I can see both sides telling her, "Marriage isn't all smooth sailing, sometimes there's storms you must face and you can come through this stronger than before, blah blah blah.." And they probably laid the "Your children will have to grow up in a broken home, think of those kids you have together, blah blah blah.."
I was hoping Anna could start seeing her situation more clearly in Josh's absence but it's not looking that way right now.

I can see Anna thinking for a moment about seriously leaving him once she learned the true extent of his "sins" but only for moments.  As in "he was unfaithful, I am outta here" sort of way then reconsidering that she has 4 kids, broken home, etc. etc.   Plus undoubtedly there's the pressure and advice from both parents and in laws to stay.  There might be times where the idea of leaving surfaces, but she seems to have damped that down given her statement about not turning things into a disaster.

I think, normally, having some distance would cause Anna to think a bit more clearly but in her particular case, it's looking to be the opposite.  She's around the in law family who is in major damage control mode plus the distance might actually fuel fantasies of how Josh is going to be "fixed".  I have no idea if she has visited him or if she has, how many times, but I would like to bet those times are awkward and painful.  The more she sees him the more she might realize that things are not the same, there's something between them that wasn't there before.

[ljohnson2006]

My heart breaks for Anna and the kids. She takes responsibility for all of Smugs' poor decisions. Anna, your husband is an adult, and makes his own choices. What he does, is not your fault.  I hope she sees the light and leaves him, but I doubt that'll happen. I cannot believe that these people think that staying with someone who forcibly touched his siblings, and cheated with a porn star is okay. Duggar Logic at it's finest.

[OnceUponATime]

12 hours ago, amandaaries said:

I keep thinking of her interview clip, where she says "if [she] went with [her] feelings, [she'd] turn a mess into a disaster."  It sums up so much for her -- trained to deny her feelings, and still doing the same.  Continuing to do as others say, instead of thinking for herself.  And the "turn a mess into a disaster" sounds like some platitude that's been shared with her as "wise words" that she's now repeating ad infinitum.  

 

My hope for this is that she was thinking of a chainsaw/axe and a very deep hole if you get my drift.
Mostly because (imho) a divorce wouldn't be a disaster for her in the long run(although in her situation with those families who can really tell).

If Anna ever leaves Josh she has a massive hurdle to jump in regards to the fear/expectation of everyone shunning her. I can't tell from what little I've seen of the show how big her social circle is, but I have my doubts about if she has enough healthy support to easily adjest to leaving him. I  wonder what her life skills are like: can she balance a checkbook, make a budget,  etc?

 

[nokidsmom]

22 minutes ago, ljohnson2006 said:

I cannot believe that these people think that staying with someone who forcibly touched his siblings, and cheated with a porn star is okay. Duggar Logic at it's finest.

The family keeps digging themselves deeper the more they try to explain.   Molestation was exposed, JB and J'chelle dig themselves deeper with the Kelly interviews.   With the AM scandal, the kids are clearly shown in the special to be very traumatized while saying they will come out stronger.   No, it's obvious that the Joshgates are going to linger over this family for a very long time.   Enough has come out to show the public that the family is very messed up not to mention hypocritical.    They would be better off keeping quiet publicly. 

[CherylV]

It took basically my ex.leaving for me to break free. His family was my only local support and help with kids and I had 5 kids in 4.5 years. My ex.left when the kids ranged from 2 to 7 years. His family helped me long enough for me to get on my feet and get to the place where I could say I wasn't going to take him  back.  If he had tried earlier I would have probably, I am sad to say, so overwhelmed  and beaten  down. I doubt  they would have been as supportive  if I have left him. 

For a while, they babysat so I could work, them I got a job being a school lunch lady working school  hours on school days  plus my ex.being garnished  for child support. Kids got older too so got to the point, I didn't need help for ex inlaws.

I can see.this happening with Anna: Josh having to leave  and her getting help from  his family still in the wake of that and then eventually  the kids get older and she's able to get back on her feet and move away but slowly. 

Fyi - I was single for 8 years, didn't try to date for 6 and ended  up getting married again 18 months ago today.

 

 

[hollywood]

When Josh eventually comes home and if Anna does stay with him.... I really don't see how anyone could face having sex with someone after knowing where he has been and knowing that level of betrayal. I would think of that every time.

[ksgranola1]

So would I. "EWWW...Don't TOUCH me!"

[luv2laugh]

Anna is obviously not leaving and I never thought she would. She is clinging to her upbringing more now than ever before. Josh has clearly shown he is over being fundie, and he might  stick this out a few years but he will be so shamed and belittled by the family that he will end up leaving and separating from Anna. They will want to make him more locked down like a misbehaving child and make him fundie after this and there is no way he will go back to living that way again. He has had a taste of the real world and enjoyed it and that desire to live normally will never leave him.

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

He might even go to church w/her a few times but after a few glares, I think he'll give up the pretense. Supposedly, he's been writing her "romantic letters." Don't remember where I read that; why doesn't he just write "PLEASE DON'T LEAVE ME! YOU & THE KIDS ARE MY SHIELD!" That's really what he's saying. Resentful sex is better than no sex. Oh, but wait...he is JOSH DUGGAR! He can pay for sex anywhere! 

I do believe they will eventually break up, tho.

[EmCatlyn]

Regarding the "love letters," a lot depends on whether "letters" or even "a loving letter" weren't turned into "love letters" by a reporter or his/her unidentified "source."

I think it is natural that Josh would be writing home.  It would be part of his "therapy," I would guess.  And I can believe that he is sorry for what he did.  In his mind, I bet, what has happened with his getting caught is a Sign from God.  He may also feel guilt and regret for hurting Anna who, though he may have found her annoying at times, was a good wife to him by the standards of his world.  I could see him having affection for her and writing letters that reflect his regret that he hurt her and the intent to be a better husband/man.

When most people think "love letter" they have a specific idea of how the letter addresses a specific type of love.  But what is reported as "love letters" may not be hypocritical declarations of a romantic passion Josh doesn't feel. They could just be affectionate letters where he says he misses her and the kids and looks forward to being reunited.

On the subject of how things will be after he gets out, a lot depends on what direction Josh chooses to give his life.  I am of the opinion that if he chooses to play the Contrite Prodigal and takes to public life in that role he will be largely forgiven within a year, especially if Danica and any other cases that may come up can be paid off/hushed up.

Whether he can sustain a reformed life for more than a couple of years, even if he finds a secret way to satisfy some of his most burning desires... That is the question.   

As for Anna, she will probably control any physical aversion to him and submit sexually to him with a smile because that is what Good Women do and because she may see another child as proof that God is blessing their marriage.  

 

[Drala]

I'll admit I've been fascinated by the train wreck in the Duggar family, and while Anna's acceptance of a repentant Josh is predictable, it's also upsetting to me.  I suspect the man is sociopathic.  I hope I'm wrong for Anna's sake; she is in for a world of hurt. 

[Cerealgirl]

Has anyone wondered about Josh's mental state since the special aired? Not that the shame isn't TOTALLY deserved. But seeing how badly the siblings were affected had to be rough. It normally would be handled privately in therapy. But then to add the public aspect of it could make someone that is depressed potentially be suicidal. Just curious if anyone else wondered the same.

[molecule]

6 minutes ago, Cerealgirl said:

Has anyone wondered about Josh's mental state since the special aired? Not that the shame isn't TOTALLY deserved. But seeing how badly the siblings were affected had to be rough. It normally would be handled privately in therapy. But then to add the public aspect of it could make someone that is depressed potentially be suicidal. Just curious if anyone else wondered the same.

I've wondered about that. I've also wondered if he even watched it at all. I don't imagine it would be easy for him to see all that.