Jessa, Ben & Spurgeon - Those Smug Seewalds

[halcionne]

Holy crap. Are Mommy's Butterfly Midwives actual nurses midwives or are they pretend ones like Jill?

That depends on how you define actual nurse midwife. By my definition, she's a pretend one too, but maybe she has some sense. Or maybe she's learned from her mistakes. http://www.freejinger.org/topic/23192-arkansas-midwife-loses-license/

[Escapefromfundiedom]

Good for them! I wouldn't want that kind of negativity surrounding my business because those two airheads decided to go it alone. How fucking stupid. I am all for SAFE home births attended by a QUALIFIED midwife, preferably one with a Masters Degree. But to not have anyone there who is medically trained is just the most idiotic, most reckless thing I have ever heard. Especially when they can more than afford it. 

So...my midwife trained for a while at the same place in Texas as Venessa and apparently they have met/might possibly know each other (I didn't push too hard for information because I didn't want to reveal the full extent of my fundie watching obsession )...either way, she was horrified by what she's heard about the level of risks involved with these births. Professional midwives specialize in attending normal, low risk pregnancy and delivery. In my experience, they will err on the side of caution if it becomes a questionable situation. And depending on the state, there are regulations regarding what types of births they can attend. In California, homebirth midwives can only attend birth between 37 and 42 weeks and cannot attend twin or breech births. (FTR: my midwife carries oxygen for mother and baby, can administer ABX for GBS+ patients, pitocin for post partum hemorrhage, always brings a second licensed midwife to attend births so there is one for mom and one for baby, orders all tests throughout pregnancy like gestational diabetes screen, etc. And this is pretty much standard for midwives in my region)

I really wish Jessa and Jill would come out with the real story on both of their births. I seriously cannot imagine they didn't have any kind of trained attendants at their birth. Or at least cannot wrap my head around why they would think that was a good idea. (Jill obviously had *someone* present because someone administered abx). Maybe whatever midwives did attend don't want their name associated with the Duggars...can't really blame them.

 

[EmmieJ]

I'm with you on the confusion over the "elect."  In my mind its contrary to the very key idea that Jesus died for sins.  If god, who is all powerful, chooses who is saved prior to their existence and their faith is pre ordained, then why did Jesus have to suffer and die?  Couldnt the sins of the elect have been forgiven by divine fiat instead of blood? If I am elect, and my sins have been forgiven and my faith is inherent to my soul, whats the point?

Also, if you are one of the "elect," can you lose that status due to your actions, or is that guaranteed, no matter how badly you behave?  As you said, what is the point, if it's already been decided who gets into heaven and who does not.  Why follow all sorts of rules and constantly proclaim yourself a miserable sinner, when you actually believe you are one of the elect and are going straight to heaven when you die?  Why try to encourage people to convert, if they have no chance of going to heaven in the first place? 

[justoneoftwo]

Also, if you are one of the "elect," can you lose that status due to your actions, or is that guaranteed, no matter how badly you behave?  As you said, what is the point, if it's already been decided who gets into heaven and who does not.  Why follow all sorts of rules and constantly proclaim yourself a miserable sinner, when you actually believe you are one of the elect and are going straight to heaven when you die?  Why try to encourage people to convert, if they have no chance of going to heaven in the first place? 

You cannot lose your salvation.  But it can turn out you were never saved.  If you do bad things you were probably never saved and going to hell, so you must always show you are such a good christian to prove to yourself you are on of the saved.  If you convert people you are also probably one of the saved.  Everything you do shows how saved or not you are. . . 

[Rachel333]

WTF, is that commenter saying they didn't really need to transfer Jessa to the hospital? Even if they didn't (and it sounds like it was very much the right call) why would you criticize someone for being cautious?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Also, if you are one of the "elect," can you lose that status due to your actions, or is that guaranteed, no matter how badly you behave?  As you said, what is the point, if it's already been decided who gets into heaven and who does not.  Why follow all sorts of rules and constantly proclaim yourself a miserable sinner, when you actually believe you are one of the elect and are going straight to heaven when you die?  Why try to encourage people to convert, if they have no chance of going to heaven in the first place? 

I may be simple (and I totally admit I believe things on faith that don't hold up to logical scrutiny either, so I'm not bashing) but this seems a lot like parenting.  I love my kids  - no matter how badly they behaved or what horrible things they could do I would always love them, help them, be there for them...die for them if necessary.  Even if they were murderers.  Even if they did vile things.  That doesn't excuse consequences...I would get them help if they went off the rails...but nothing they could do would make me stop loving them, reject them as my children, or refuse assistance if they needed me.  

And no matter how awesome the neighbor kids are, no matter what great acts they do or how much they make the world a better place I'm not paying for their college, letting them live in my house, or leave them my money/stuff when I die because they aren't mine.  I truly hope they have parents who are there for them the way I'm there for mine...but it won't be me.

So yeah - some people I will love no matter what they do and others I won't love as much or give as much to, no matter what they do.  

So if I'm understanding this correctly in this construct God only considers the elect his children?  If that's the case then why are they yammering at everyone else to get on board?  

 

WTF, is that commenter saying they didn't really need to transfer Jessa to the hospital? Even if they didn't (and it sounds like it was very much the right call) why would you criticize someone for being cautious?

I know a business can only have so much control over supporter comments, but that's exactly the kind of thing that makes people super wary of even being open minded about home births.

[EmmieJ]

You cannot lose your salvation.  But it can turn out you were never saved.  If you do bad things you were probably never saved and going to hell, so you must always show you are such a good christian to prove to yourself you are on of the saved.  If you convert people you are also probably one of the saved.  Everything you do shows how saved or not you are. . . 

It makes my head hurt.  I think I will stick with my current plan which is:  try to be a decent person and not mistreat others.  Don't steal.  Don't kill.  Don't cheat on your loved one.  Try to make the world a better place because you were in it.  And then hope I don't end up in the same place as the really annoying, creepy, child beating fundies.

[justoneoftwo]

It makes my head hurt.  I think I will stick with my current plan which is:  try to be a decent person and not mistreat others.  Don't steal.  Don't kill.  Don't cheat on your loved one.  Try to make the world a better place because you were in it.  And then hope I don't end up in the same place as the really annoying, creepy, child beating fundies.

It makes my head hurt too.  I should point out that the majority of my understanding comes from a historical context, so the details may have changed.  

[Rachel333]

I really don't like Calvinism. I guess in principle it's not that different from believing that people have free will but that God knows the future and can intervene in people's lives, because in that situation God knows who will go to Heaven and Hell and lets it happen, but there's something so off-putting about believing that God actively chooses specific people to go to Heaven and thus also chooses who goes to Hell. (Calvinists would say that God doesn't send people to Hell, he just chooses who goes to Heaven, but to me that's the same thing and I've never seen an adequate explanation for how it could be otherwise.)

[MyMilkshake]

So...my midwife trained for a while at the same place in Texas as Venessa and apparently they have met/might possibly know each other (I didn't push too hard for information because I didn't want to reveal the full extent of my fundie watching obsession )...either way, she was horrified by what she's heard about the level of risks involved with these births. Professional midwives specialize in attending normal, low risk pregnancy and delivery. In my experience, they will err on the side of caution if it becomes a questionable situation. And depending on the state, there are regulations regarding what types of births they can attend. In California, homebirth midwives can only attend birth between 37 and 42 weeks and cannot attend twin or breech births. (FTR: my midwife carries oxygen for mother and baby, can administer ABX for GBS+ patients, pitocin for post partum hemorrhage, always brings a second licensed midwife to attend births so there is one for mom and one for baby, orders all tests throughout pregnancy like gestational diabetes screen, etc. And this is pretty much standard for midwives in my region)

I really wish Jessa and Jill would come out with the real story on both of their births. I seriously cannot imagine they didn't have any kind of trained attendants at their birth. Or at least cannot wrap my head around why they would think that was a good idea. (Jill obviously had *someone* present because someone administered abx). Maybe whatever midwives did attend don't want their name associated with the Duggars...can't really blame them.

 

 If the Duggars are  going to insist on birthing at home, they should be at least practicing as much risk management as possible. In Jessa's case, maybe she was too far into labor for pain relief, fair enough. But if there were concerns at any point with Jessa having a safe delivery she should have gone to a hospital asap. I question whether Michelle would err on the side of caution with her own daughters if they decided to go the hospital route and it bothers me. I hope they smarten up before they lose a mother or baby.

[jqlgoblue]

I hear you Buffy. I'm not a traditional believer but to me that would be the type of love bestowed by God but TO ALL, not just his most ardent believers.

Trying to do good, but failing, and asking for forgiveness is the human condition and ALL who act in this way on earth should be rewarded with 'heaven' whatever that is, all that don't with 'hell' even if that is just a restless soul. I don't think a motherly/fatherly God would say, 'hey the kids of mine who doubt me I hate, but those who follow me blindly I love more' or that he would love the more 'perfect' ones more. He would love ALL of his children equally. I firmly believe that even though I am non-traditional, if God is at the pearly gates, he will judge me fairly on my deeds and intent. That is my God, that is not fundie's God. They are God's only children, they are God's better children, they sometimes don't even try to do right because God forgives all. That is the hypocrisy in the most ardent believers and that is what is so difficult to comprehend.

[theinvisiblegirl]

A comment on the A Mommy's Butterfly post struck me as something to keep an eye on. When clicking on this person's FB profile page, it says that she works for A Mommy's Butterfly. I won't post the name, but it's an open group so you'd be able to see who made it:

This post was in no way made to slam Jill or Jessa. This statement was posted only to contradict the accusations made that A Mommy's Butterfly Midwifery was the midwife at either birth. No midwives associated with A Mommy's Butterfly Midwifery were a part of Jill or Jessa's births. I am in full support of a womans choice. However, the individual that attended Jessa and Ben's birth calls herself a midwife yet has had no training as a midwife. She is not licensed, she is not certified and she has been through no form of training. I think she made the right call in going to the hospital postpartum but I have personally witnessed her make very unwise decisions at a birth.

No wonder they only mentioned the Duggar women and Guin who attended. If someone was actually there, they're covering it up in the magazines. How are they going to cover it up if a camera crew was in there? Blur out this person's face? Only show shots of Jessa's agonized face intertwined with Michelle giving crazy eyes and Ben probably looking horrified?

Isn't a cover up the same thing that was described in one of Vyckie Garrison's horrific accounts of her giving birth? So this wouldn't at all be surprising.

ETA: I could be wrong about it being a post of Vyckie's where they talked about a cover up. It's been awhile since I read that post.

[twinmama]

My daughter used to love Calliou.  I think she's pretty much seen every episode.  I get what everyone is saying about the whining, and I always thought it was very strange that a 4 year old didn't have hair.  Anyway, none of his annoying behavior rubbed off on her.  She's much more affected by rude behavior she picks up from other kids in preschool.  I shut that down very quickly. 

 

Now she's really into Paw Patrol and Octonauts.

I love Octonauts! And Dinosaur Train, Super Why, and Wild Kratts. My boys practically know more about nature than I do from those shows.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I hear you Buffy. I'm not a traditional believer but to me that would be the type of love bestowed by God but TO ALL, not just his most ardent believers.

Trying to do good, but failing, and asking for forgiveness is the human condition and ALL who act in this way on earth should be rewarded with 'heaven' whatever that is, all that don't with 'hell' even if that is just a restless soul. I don't think a motherly/fatherly God would say, 'hey the kids of mine who doubt me I hate, but those who follow me blindly I love more' or that he would love the more 'perfect' ones more. He would love ALL of his children equally. I firmly believe that even though I am non-traditional, if God is at the pearly gates, he will judge me fairly on my deeds and intent. That is my God, that is not fundie's God. They are God's only children, they are God's better children, they sometimes don't even try to do right because God forgives all. That is the hypocrisy in the most ardent believers and that is what is so difficult to comprehend.

This brought to mind something Erma Bombeck once wrote about her favorite child.  My favorite child was the one who needed me the most at that moment.  

I know nothing about the Bible, except for what I make up*, but I can't go far wrong living my life according to Erma.

*Yesterday I chastised my headship for serving some kind of chicken lo mien without the crunch chow mien noodles because, as I explained to him, the bible clearly states in the Book of Dinner, Chapter 7 verse 19:  "Whosoever purpose to prepare a one pot meal out must add a textural element, else suffer the wrath of the angels upon the earth who descend upon the homestead from their IT office, from whence they they come, hungry and brimming with grouchiness.  If one lacks said noodles because they are not counted among the elect and are punished with a barren pantry, they can add more water chestnuts as a workaround...so sayeth the Lord thy God.  Amen."

 

 

[HereticHick]

Random thought : In the Spurgey reveral Bin says that Spurgeon has an influence in "our" lives.  I call bullshit on the idea that Blessa even heard of him prior to meeting Bin.  Something tells me that there isnt a whole lot of deep reading in the Duggar household.  Boob doesnt strike me as the type of guy that sits down and thumbs through an book of old Calvinist sermons so there's no way that shit was in the house. 

Bin probably discovered him 2 years ago while studying for his degree. 

Absolutely Buzzard! Since the Duggarlings are too lazy to even memorize verses & compete in Bible Bees, I really doubt there are shelves of 19th century sermons in the Tinker Toy House.  But, there is no way that Bin read Spurgeon in his community college classes--wasn't his major poli sci?

 

Speaking of Calvinism, I just came across this long essay (by a anti-Calvinist fundy Baptist preacher) complaining about Calvinism spreading among fundy Baptists: http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/calvinism_on_the_march.html

[SassyPants]

So does no attendants also likely mean no prenatal care for Jessa?

We knew that Jill was using Mrs Query and her trainer was her MWs.

 

These people are idiots, plain and simple.

And again, MICHELLE USED HOSPITALS,  MDS AND PROBABLY PAIN MEDS FOR MOST OF HER DELIVERIES. WHY MUST THE GIRLS BE SUBJECTED TO LOWER STANDARDS?

[campused]

The mind boggling tenets behind Calvinism and Arminianism are what eventually lead me to open theism when I was still a Christian. I could never understand how we had free will if god already knew what we were going to choose and we couldn't deviate from that. Open theism says that the future is undetermined and god does not know what we will choose to do in the future. It was really just a way for me to keep rationalizing things and a path towards being more liberal. I think it's likely all hogwash now but as a Christian experiencing confusion over traditionally held beliefs about god, it was comforting to me. 

[MakeItSo]

So does no attendants also likely mean no prenatal care for Jessa?

We knew that Jill was using Mrs Query and her trainer was her MWs.

 

These people are idiots, plain and simple.

And again, MICHELLE USED HOSPITALS,  MDS AND PROBABLY PAIN MEDS FOR MOST OF HER DELIVERIES. WHY MUST THE GIRLS BE SUBJECTED TO LOWER STANDARDS?

that's what I don't get either. Their mother constantly went to the hospital for the majority of the births. Would their headships' (Derick and Bin) word mean anything? I doubt it but you gotta wonder

[twinmama]

A comment on the A Mommy's Butterfly post struck me as something to keep an eye on. When clicking on this person's FB profile page, it says that she works for A Mommy's Butterfly. I won't post the name, but it's an open group so you'd be able to see who made it:

No wonder they only mentioned the Duggar women and Guin who attended. If someone was actually there, they're covering it up in the magazines. How are they going to cover it up if a camera crew was in there? Blur out this person's face? Only show shots of Jessa's agonized face intertwined with Michelle giving crazy eyes and Ben probably looking horrified?

Isn't a cover up the same thing that was described in one of Vyckie Garrison's horrific accounts of her giving birth? So this wouldn't at all be surprising.

ETA: I could be wrong about it being a post of Vyckie's where they talked about a cover up. It's been awhile since I read that post.

Sounds like maybe it was the doula who was at Anna's first birth? Wasn't she like the OB's wife or something? 

As for why the girls have to be subjected to this lack of medical care in pregnancy and birth... because it's a contest to see who can be the Best. Christian. Ever. And apparently the best Christians take unimaginably stupid risks bc god'll take care of it, or something.

With these girls going for unattended home births on their first child, I really feel like it's only a matter of time until one dies in child birth, or loses the baby during the birth. I'm slightly more comfortable with Anna free birthing since she has had relatively uncomplicated deliveries and several of them. Jill had an emergency section and Jessa hemorrhaged! Both need competent medical professionals at their next birth, whether at home (not my choice in their situations!) or in the hospital.

[theinvisiblegirl]

Sounds like maybe it was the doula who was at Anna's first birth? Wasn't she like the OB's wife or something? 

IIRC, Mrs. Query, a family friend who had been training as a doula, attended Anna's first birth when the OB, who was also Michelle's OB, was out of town.

[KSmom]

My brother in law is a Presbyterian pastor and a staunch Calvinist. Years ago I would have said that he was a kind and compassionate man, but over the years he has gotten so harsh, and very set in his beliefs being the only right kind of Christianity. I can't even begin to describe the pain he has caused (and continues to cause) the family, by his treatment of my sister-in-law(his sister) when she came out of the closet. It has been almost 10 years, and he still can't stop trying to "fix" her. He is convinced that she is going to hell, and even shames his kids into confronting their aunt. 

All those that I have known that are calvinists really come across as elitist, and feeling as if they are better than others. I have heard my brother in law try to explain why he could believe in predestination and at the same time believe in evangelizing and works of mercy, but frankly I haven't seen it. Neither from him or any others of their kind that I know.

[Karma]

Jessa has just posted a Spurgeon quote on her instagram.  "We shall not adjust our bible to the age, but the age to our bible."  Thoughts?

[ladyaudley]

Things have certainly source with the Butterflies, haven't they? The hypocrisy of Michelle's births vs the girls' is staggering, but then we know them to engage in mental gymnastics all the time. Reminds me of my inlaws, who threw an absolute hissy fit when dh and I moved in before we were married - even though they had lived together for five years before getting married. But it's *unchristian* and might lead their son to premarital sex (damn right it did) and they had learned from their mistakes! They're still happily married btw, unsure where the learning was.

What I'm trying to say is "do as I say, not as I do" is common among older Christians, not just the ultra-fundies

[Fascinated]

Saw this today and thought we all needed it. 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/please-let-them-watch-something-else#.bj7Mvoav2

 

I also never understood Calvinism.

That is absolutely hilarious and perfect!  (The Calliou thing, not the not understanding Calvinism thing.)

[sophie10130]

A comment on the A Mommy's Butterfly post struck me as something to keep an eye on. When clicking on this person's FB profile page, it says that she works for A Mommy's Butterfly. I won't post the name, but it's an open group so you'd be able to see who made it:

No wonder they only mentioned the Duggar women and Guin who attended. If someone was actually there, they're covering it up in the magazines. How are they going to cover it up if a camera crew was in there? Blur out this person's face? Only show shots of Jessa's agonized face intertwined with Michelle giving crazy eyes and Ben probably looking horrified?

Isn't a cover up the same thing that was described in one of Vyckie Garrison's horrific accounts of her giving birth? So this wouldn't at all be surprising.

ETA: I could be wrong about it being a post of Vyckie's where they talked about a cover up. It's been awhile since I read that post.

Easy. They won't show the birth at all. There's no way they will. Especially with this bad publicity surrounding it. Plus people have speculated that Jessa would never allow herself in labor on TV. 

IMO, they really fucked themselves by releasing that it was such a long labor. They could have said it was so short they didn't have time to call a midwife-- the baby was coming NOW-- and covered their asses when the news about her hemorrhaging came to light via the 911 call. But no, they had to make it sound like a huge process that Jessa and the precious blessing endured. What a miracle. Praise Jesus. And yet in the 56,000 hours that she was laboring, asking for pain meds, saying she was never going to have a kid again, they still didn't call someone who was qualified. The privilege of these people astound me.