Jill & Jessa specials coming - MERGED

[singsingsing]

Wow, having a hard time understanding why a mother would feel the need to throw around racial stereotypes to call her medically fragile infant a whimp. I’ve dealt with having a NICU baby who needed several major surgeries in her first years of life. It’s hard and I get it that humor can be a coping tool. But sometimes off-color jokes are funny…and sometimes they aren’t.

My daughter has been through more physical trauma than I think I could handle myself. There have been many times when it has taken her longer to recover than expected. Her body may be fragile but she's got the toughest spirit of anyone I know. Can't even fathom disrespecting her, even on an anonymous forum, by calling her whimpy.

I've heard of 'wimpy white boy syndrome' before. Supposedly there's something of a consensus in the medical community that white male infants fair more poorly than others when born prematurely (I don't know nearly enough about it to comment on accuracy). I agree the term is kind of jarring, but it's not meant to be insulting or racist. It's a pretty common term, from what I understand. The poster you're responding to didn't personally invent it.

[batuityma]

I've heard of 'wimpy white boy syndrome' before. Supposedly there's something of a consensus in the medical community that white male infants fair more poorly than others when born prematurely (I don't know nearly enough about it to comment on accuracy). I agree the term is kind of jarring, but it's not meant to be insulting or racist. It's a pretty common term, from what I understand. The poster you're responding to didn't personally invent it.

Yeah, I've heard the term before in medical circles. I didn't think she invented it. It might be based on medical statistics but that doesn't mean it isn't an insulting term. I mean seriously, "whimpy white boy syndrome"? It isn't a medical term it is slang. I just had a hard time swallowing the fact that a mother would use it. I find it very disrespectful.

It isn't even the race part as much as referring to any innocent fragile infant struggling to survive as a whimp.

[Rescinded and Mended]

Wow, having a hard time understanding why a mother would feel the need to throw around racial stereotypes to call her medically fragile infant a whimp. I’ve dealt with having a NICU baby who needed several major surgeries in her first years of life. It’s hard and I get it that humor can be a coping tool. But sometimes off-color jokes are funny…and sometimes they aren’t.

My daughter has been through more physical trauma than I think I could handle myself. There have been many times when it has taken her longer to recover than expected. Her body may be fragile but she's got the toughest spirit of anyone I know. Can't even fathom disrespecting her, even on an anonymous forum, by calling her whimpy.

No kidding. It's not ever a child's fault when they become ill. Calling a child a wimp for becoming ill sounds as if blame is being assigned for the sickness. My kid went through cancer treatment, is in remission, and he is doing better now. He's always going to have his struggles, but the time he spent on treatment does not make him a wimp - it means he had to endure great hardship, and that he survived a catastrophic health scare. If anything, he was extraordinarily brave. Nobody knows why these things happen, but we can only be grateful when our children are fortunate enough to get through them and go on to live their lives as best they can.

Shit happens, and as my grandpa used to say, hell's fuzzy.

I don't have a clue what that means, it's just something he always used to say after 'shit happens...'

[SassyPants]

Statistically speaking, Caucasian, pre- term males medically, fair the worst. It is a fact. Yes, anyone who has ever worked in neonatal medicine would know this to be true and also would have likely heard the term, "wimpy white boy syndrome."

Black, female pre-term babies tend to do the best.

[singsingsing]

Yeah, I've heard the term before in medical circles. I didn't think she invented it. It might be based on medical statistics but that doesn't mean it isn't an insulting term. I mean seriously, "whimpy white boy syndrome"? It isn't a medical term it is slang. I just had a hard time swallowing the fact that a mother would use it. I find it very disrespectful.

It isn't even the race part as much as referring to any innocent fragile infant struggling to survive as a whimp.

Fair enough. I'd be pretty upset if someone referred to my own baby like that, but it's a bit murkier when it's a woman talking about her own infant. I can definitely see how people would find it insulting, though. To be honest I don't like it much myself. I mean, I used to fingerprint people for my job, and older white males were by far the most difficult to fingerprint, because their prints were the worst quality. Everyone knew this, but nobody called it "Old White Man Syndrome" - and that's obviously far and away less serious and emotionally fraught than a baby in the NICU. :think:

[Rescinded and Mended]

I did try to do the thing properly by Googling 'Tetralogy of Fallot,' but it never occurred to me to consider looking up 'Wimpy White Boy Syndrome.' It doesn't sound like an actual medical term (and I've heard a few strange ones in my time - dishpan body, anyone?), and it just comes across as offensive.

[batuityma]

Statistically speaking, Caucasian, pre- term males medically, fair the worst. It is a fact. Yes, anyone who has ever worked in neonatal medicine would know this to be true and also would have likely heard the term, "wimpy white boy syndrome."

Black, female pre-term babies tend to do the best.

Ok, last post on this. Didn’t intend to totally derail the thread.

I wanted to emphasize that just because a slang term is commonly used in the medical profession doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive. In full disclosure, I have a huge chip on my shoulder about this sort of thing. I have heard so many nurses and doctors use stereotypical slang terms to refer to people with my daughter’s diagnosis. There have been times that I was rendered speechless at the things said to me and how in the world this “professional†would have the gall to say them to a parent. I would never repeat these terms myself about my own child.

It is one thing to say “statistically speaking this particular group tends to have a poorer prognosisâ€. It is another thing to use an insult laden slang term to describe that phenomenon.

[BriMamai]

Maybe people would be more comfortable with Weak White Boy Syndrome? Seriously folks, Wimpy White Boy Syndrome is a thing in medicine. It describes a phenomenon that, as far as I know, no one can explain. While the exact wording may not be flattering, at least when it is explained to parents, they can understand that their child's difficulties where others thrive are fairly common. Thus, they are not alone in their suffering. It is not a slur on the child's effort, it is a description of the sometimes lackluster response to treatment.

[JenniferJuniper]

Wimpy White Boy Syndrome is indeed a thing.

Why black girls do better than any preemies and why black boys do better than white boys isn't known, but males in general develop more slowly than females so they are likely to have less developed organs if born early.

Notice that most conjoined twins are female.

[batuityma]

Wimpy White Boy Syndrome is indeed a thing.

Why black girls do better than any preemies and why black boys do better than white boys isn't known, but males in general develop more slowly than females so they are likely to have less developed organs if born early.

Notice that most conjoined twins are female.

Ok, I lied. THIS is my last post.

Before my head explodes:

I UNDERSTAND THAT WHITE MALE PREMATURE INFANTS STATISTICALLY HAVE THE WORST OUTCOMES

I also understand that the term wimpy white boy syndrome is commonly used by medical professionals. My issue is that it is still an offensive term. I have heard MANY medical professionals use offensive slang to refer to their patients. Some quite jaw dropping. Sometimes the words are obviously insulting and sometimes it's more under the radar (My friend had to get a copy of her son’s medical records and she happened to come across the abbreviation FLK in the pediatrician's note as his reason for ordering a genetic test. Imagine how she felt when she googled it.)

I find this insensitive and dehumanizing. The language a medical professional uses is extremely important when addressing a patient and/or the patient’s family. Doctors and nurses have a responsibility to be respectful. Why in the world is “oh, well, everybody says it†an excuse for offensive language to be used? A doctor can explain statistical outcomes to a parent without resorting to these kinds of terms.

[MarblesMom]

I am new, but this thread smells like peanut butter (DUCKING). Ya'll figger it out.

[sophrosyne]

Little tidbit:

In the CSI finale tonight, Grissom first appears with a shark fin in each hand and says, "looks like somebody jumped a shark."

Allusion shared with this thread's title of course, and a cheeky nod to critics who thought CSI several times 'jumped the shark' to reignite viewer interest and boost ratings. The 'outing' of Grissom and Sara's relationship in Season 8 was one such shark jump. (For those who don't know, the original shark jump belonged to Fonzie, who donned water skis to jump a shark as Happy Days was winding down.)

Props to the mods for the thread title!

[JenniferJuniper]

Ok, I lied. THIS is my last post.

Before my head explodes:

I UNDERSTAND THAT WHITE MALE PREMATURE INFANTS STATISTICALLY HAVE THE WORST OUTCOMES

I also understand that the term wimpy white boy syndrome is commonly used by medical professionals. My issue is that it is still an offensive term. I have heard MANY medical professionals use offensive slang to refer to their patients. Some quite jaw dropping. Sometimes the words are obviously insulting and sometimes it's more under the radar (My friend had to get a copy of her son’s medical records and she happened to come across the abbreviation FLK in the pediatrician's note as his reason for ordering a genetic test. Imagine how she felt when she googled it.)

I find this insensitive and dehumanizing. The language a medical professional uses is extremely important when addressing a patient and/or the patient’s family. Doctors and nurses have a responsibility to be respectful. Why in the world is “oh, well, everybody says it†an excuse for offensive language to be used? A doctor can explain statistical outcomes to a parent without resorting to these kinds of terms.

It is, as they say, what it is.

I'm not a degreed medical professional. I'm just saying this is a phrase used by medical professionals.

Kindly direct your outrage accordingly.

[EmCatlyn]

Wow, having a hard time understanding why a mother would feel the need to throw around racial stereotypes to call her medically fragile infant a whimp. I’ve dealt with having a NICU baby who needed several major surgeries in her first years of life. It’s hard and I get it that humor can be a coping tool. But sometimes off-color jokes are funny…and sometimes they aren’t.

My daughter has been through more physical trauma than I think I could handle myself. There have been many times when it has taken her longer to recover than expected. Her body may be fragile but she's got the toughest spirit of anyone I know. Can't even fathom disrespecting her, even on an anonymous forum, by calling her whimpy.

This is just to say that I did not interpret Elvis Presby's message as disrespectful to her child. I saw her making a courageous joke about a difficult experience by satirizing the slang term "wimpy white boy."

She was not calling her child a wimp and she was not being "racist" when she mentioned the boy was white. I had never heard the term before but I could tell she was mocking something about her son's "diagnosis." When others said it was a commonly used term, I "got" it.

The idea that a child in the NICU might be seriously referred to as "wimpy" never crossed my mind. There was no disrespect to her child or NICU babies in general because it wasn't the "frail child" but the term itself (which we all agree is an insensitive term) that was being mocked.

[ClaraOswin]

Little tidbit:

In the CSI finale tonight, Grissom first appears with a shark fin in each hand and says, "looks like somebody jumped a shark."

Allusion shared with this thread's title of course, and a cheeky nod to critics who thought CSI several times 'jumped the shark' to reignite viewer interest and boost ratings. The 'outing' of Grissom and Sara's relationship in Season 8 was one such shark jump. (For those who don't know, the original shark jump belonged to Fonzie, who donned water skis to jump a shark as Happy Days was winding down.)

Props to the mods for the thread title!

I loved when Henry Winkler jumped a stuffed shark on a dock on Arrested Development.

[batuityma]

It is, as they say, what it is.

I'm not a degreed medical professional. I'm just saying this is a phrase used by medical professionals.

Kindly direct your outrage accordingly.

sorry, I should be more careful when using the quote button.

I didn't mean for that to come out so ragey at you. You just happened to be the last person to point out the statitics so I picked your post to quote.

I was frustrated that my point was being lost. It is late and I'm in a bad mood. Not a good time to be posting. Nothing personal.

I just got uspet with all the talk justifying the way some (certainaly not all ) doctors/nurses talk to patients/parents. People in the medical field sometimes make up "humorus" slang terms. They might be based on medical fact and also used ubiquitously. However that doesn't mean they are actual text book medical terms and they are often inappropriate and insensitive to use when talking to patients/families.

[countressrascal]

One potential sponsor- Ashley Madison :cracking-up:

[batuityma]

This is just to say that I did not interpret Elvis Presby's message as disrespectful to her child. I saw her making a courageous joke about a difficult experience by satirizing the slang term "wimpy white boy."

She was not calling her child a wimp and she was not being "racist" when she mentioned the boy was white. I had never heard the term before but I could tell she was mocking something about her son's "diagnosis." When others said it was a commonly used term, I "got" it.

The idea that a child in the NICU might be seriously referred to as "wimpy" never crossed my mind. There was no disrespect to her child or NICU babies in general because it wasn't the "frail child" but the term itself (which we all agree is an insensitive term) that was being mocked.

You are right to defend her. I was out of line for making that post. I regret it. (but for the record I did not call her "racist".)

I knew she was being sarcastic and meant to be funny. I didn't find it funny at that moment. I was pissed that a mother would perpetuate offensive medical jargon, even if jokingly. That's about me not her and I had no right to try and shame her.

It's just that I'm reeling from an upsetting encounter with an extremely arrogant and insensitive surgeon, who unfortunately appears to be the most qualified person in the tri-state area to operate on my daughter. I'm mad that I have to deal with his horribly offensive straight-out-of-the-1950's remarks about people with disabilities. However, it isn't right for me to direct that anger at people who don't deserve it.

No deleting on FJ so I can't take it back. But I do apologize

[Hokey Pokey]

Wimpy White Boy Syndrome is indeed a thing.

Why black girls do better than any preemies and why black boys do better than white boys isn't known, but males in general develop more slowly than females so they are likely to have less developed organs if born early.

Notice that most conjoined twins are female.

I didn't know this specifically but I do know that in general there are more female twins than male. I belive in general female embryos/fetuses (fetusi?) are more "sturdy" than male and so do do better on average at every stage, I've heard that it has something to do with having two X chromosomes so a full back up set so to speak but I have no idea if that's true. I didn't know about the differences in ethnicities, but interesting that black populations also have high chances of twins.

[YoshiCat]

TLC is a business, it exists to make money. Their shows are not the product they're selling and viewers are not their customers. The product they're selling is viewers and their customers are the advertisers. You can be sure that people at TLC have been watching and noting how big of a story the Duggar scandals are, the amount of coverage it's been getting, the number of people clicking on stories and the Duggars and the number of people commenting.

It doesn't matter why people watch the show---true fans or hate/snark watchers. It's just about the number of people and the advertising they can sell as a result.

They already have a lot of footage in the can. It's very cheap to shoot a little more footage, edit it and put it on the air to see how many people watch. It's a very inexpensive test. And they won't just be looking at the Neilson numbers. They'll looking at DVR data and news coverage. They'll be looking at the tweets and the social media posts; that's where the coveted age 18-34 demographic hangs out.

All the people talking about the show and expressing outrage before it even airs is just free advertising. It's definitely a case of all publicity is good publicity. I don't mean to sound cold or crass; I used to work in cable (and radio). It's all about selling advertising. Nobody cares if the audience is angry or outraged unless it drives away advertisers.

[YoshiCat]

I'm not. They continue to contribute to the damage by downplaying what happened.

I am absolutely not a leg humper or even someone who likes Jill and Jessa very much. I've long hated the Duggars because I think the way they raise their children is downright abusive, aside from the physical punishment.

But I think it's grossly unfair to criticize Jill and Jessa for downplaying what happened or covering for Josh. There was and is absolutely nothing else they could do. Remember that they were raised in isolation and taught to bring all thoughts to their parents, who were all knowing and who are absolute authority figures. They never had anywhere else to turn. They were never taught to talk to a trusted adult outside the family and there was never a trusted adult outside of the cult that they could have talked to. They have only one perspective and no ability to look at the situation from a different perspective.

They were programmed from birth to obey their parents unquestioningly. They were told what to think and how to act at all times. They probably don't even know how they really feel. But they have somehow adapted psychologically and found a way to cope with the situation. Everyone finds a way to cope, even if that way is self-destructive, self-harming behavior. Their way was probably to minimize what happened and do everything possible to avoid it happening to them again and try to protect their younger sisters.

When a person is raised with very controlling parents, it's very hard to break away from that, even if you recognize it as it's happening. It creates dependence and a belief that you can't handle anything, you need to let your parents handle it. Even though they're married and supposedly on their own, they aren't really. They live in houses owned by their parents and are dependent on them and the family business for income. And they're still psychologically dependent on their parents. I'm sure that when the molestation story broke, JB and Michelle told their daughters how they felt about what was happening. And I'm sure that Jill and Jessa were told exactly what to say in that Megyn Kelly interview.

If they step out of line, they lose everything they've even known. Their family and their community will shun them. They don't have an outside group of friends to turn to and being cut off from their family and and the only community they've ever known might just break them psychologically.

Also, Josh is not a one dimensional character, the child molester, to them. He's their brother, someone they've know all their lives. They've seen his good parts and probably believe that this is painful for him as well.

It's different when you know the person. I was once in a situation where a group that I was a part of, a group that I was close to and that was very important to me, was looking at someone outside the group as a villain. I understood why they were doing that. They didn't really know him, they were hurt and angry and wanted someone to blame. They thought he wasn't being adequately blamed or punished. I knew the villain, I'd known him for years. But he wasn't a villain and he was suffering more than any of the people who were pointing fingers at him. But I was already being looked at sideways because of the expectation that I might defend him or side with him. And when I tried to share my perspective, it did not go over well.

Josh is not just a villain to them. And Jill and Jessa are just not capable of standing up and turning their backs on the families and community to vilify him. It would be far more harmful to them than whatever psychological adaptations they've made to deal with the situation as it is.

Whew, I didn't set out to write such a long diatribe. This hits a little close to home, as I was raised by very controlling parents who actually shared a lot of the non-religious beliefs of the fundies. At an early age I thought some of the things my parents tried to teach me were just crazy and I knew they were extremely controlling. I had plenty of outside influences to counter it all and yet it was still so hard to break away and shed that conditioning. I knew it was going on, I was eager to get away from it and it was still so difficult and took a very long time.

So even though I think Jill and Jessa are kind of awful people, I have sympathy for them and their situation. And I don't think they should be blamed for anything, including the way they react to the situation.

[YoshiCat]

I'm not. They continue to contribute to the damage by downplaying what happened.

I am absolutely not a leg humper or even someone who likes Jill and Jessa very much. I've long hated the Duggars because I think the way they raise their children is downright abusive, aside from the physical punishment.

But I think it's grossly unfair to criticize Jill and Jessa for downplaying what happened or covering for Josh. There was and is absolutely nothing else they could do. Remember that they were raised in isolation and taught to bring all thoughts to their parents, who were all knowing and who are absolute authority figures. They never had anywhere else to turn. They were never taught to talk to a trusted adult outside the family and there was never a trusted adult outside of the cult that they could have talked to. They have only one perspective and no ability to look at the situation from a different perspective.

They were programmed from birth to obey their parents unquestioningly. They were told what to think and how to act at all times. They probably don't even know how they really feel. But they have somehow adapted psychologically and found a way to cope with the situation. Everyone finds a way to cope, even if that way is self-destructive, self-harming behavior. Their way was probably to minimize what happened and do everything possible to avoid it happening to them again and try to protect their younger sisters.

When a person is raised with very controlling parents, it's very hard to break away from that, even if you recognize it as it's happening. It creates dependence and a belief that you can't handle anything, you need to let your parents handle it. Even though they're married and supposedly on their own, they aren't really. They live in houses owned by their parents and are dependent on them and the family business for income. And they're still psychologically dependent on their parents. I'm sure that when the molestation story broke, JB and Michelle told their daughters how they felt about what was happening. And I'm sure that Jill and Jessa were told exactly what to say in that Megyn Kelly interview.

If they step out of line, they lose everything they've even known. Their family and their community will shun them. They don't have an outside group of friends to turn to and being cut off from their family and and the only community they've ever known might just break them psychologically.

Also, Josh is not a one dimensional character, the child molester, to them. He's their brother, someone they've know all their lives. They've seen his good parts and probably believe that this is painful for him as well.

It's different when you know the person. I was once in a situation where a group that I was a part of, a group that I was close to and that was very important to me, was looking at someone outside the group as a villain. I understood why they were doing that. They didn't really know him, they were hurt and angry and wanted someone to blame. They thought he wasn't being adequately blamed or punished. I knew the villain, I'd known him for years. But he wasn't a villain and he was suffering more than any of the people who were pointing fingers at him. But I was already being looked at sideways because of the expectation that I might defend him or side with him. And when I tried to share my perspective, it did not go over well.

Josh is not just a villain to them. And Jill and Jessa are just not capable of standing up and turning their backs on the families and community to vilify him. It would be far more harmful to them than whatever psychological adaptations they've made to deal with the situation as it is.

Whew, I didn't set out to write such a long diatribe. This hits a little close to home, as I was raised by very controlling parents who actually shared a lot of the non-religious beliefs of the fundies. At an early age I thought some of the things my parents tried to teach me were just crazy and I knew they were extremely controlling. I had plenty of outside influences to counter it all and yet it was still so hard to break away and shed that conditioning. I knew it was going on, I was eager to get away from it and it was still so difficult and took a very long time.

So even though I think Jill and Jessa are kind of awful people, I have sympathy for them and their situation. And I don't think they should be blamed for anything, including the way they react to the situation.

[Elvis Presby]

I did not mean to start anything last night. Ooops.

By the way, I think going barefoot is gross.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I did not mean to start anything last night. Ooops.

By the way, I think going barefoot is gross.

I'm sorry for my own overreaction. I guess I should have looked up a couple more things, myself.

[Elvis Presby]

I'm sorry for my own overreaction. I guess I should have looked up a couple more things, myself.

Don't sweat it. I always make sure to put on my big girl panties and chainmail before posting on here. Apologies in advance to anyone who takes offense at the big girl panties reference. :)

edited for riffles.