Jill & Jessa specials coming - MERGED

[MatthewDuggar]

Does anyone know how long the usual Christian rehab lasts?

If he's doing the standard program at the place everyone thinks he's at, then 5-6 months.

[albanuadh_1]

You're right, ClaraOswin. I didn't even think about JB being in Florida; just assumed it was Arkansas. :embarrassed:

[Hera]

Well, if that photo op isn't the most unintentionally telling thing JB has done in a while, I don't know what is. "Look at me! I still have a TV show and Anna! I won!"

The self-absorption, lack of awareness, lack of empathy for JA and the M kids' situation and lack of respect for his married daughters and their husbands' autonomy is kind of amazing. No matter what happens to everyone around him, it's all about Jim Bob.

[VelociRapture]

Don't the police reports contradict that, anyway?

To a certain extent, yes.

If I remember correctly, the statements given revealed the following information:

- Jill and Jessa were both asleep when the assaults began, but both woke up at some point during them. I believe it was Jill who stated she woke up when she felt someone pulling the blanket off them. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean they would remember it happening or recall it as anything other than a bad dream - if they were groggy enough they may not have fully realized they were awake until later on.

However, as I mention below, I find it incredibly difficult to believe Josh might voluntarily admit to molesting two of his sisters and a babysitter in their sleep - partly because he was sneaky about it and partly because he went on to escalate the behavior by attacking two more sisters. I find it likely that at least one of the girls (Jill or Jessa) ratted him out.

- Jana was not in the house when the attack on Joy occurred. She was out to dinner with her parents and grandparents at the time and they received a phone call asking they return home. It's unclear who it was who called. JB and Michelle claim that Josh confessed to them - however, the fact that he took great care to be sneaky kind of contradicts this claim as does the fact that the parents and sisters lied (or at least stretched the truth) in the interview.

I have a feeling that JD may have been out to dinner with the group as well - which means its likely that Jill and Jessa would have been home with the other kids and Jill, as the eldest daughter there, may have been left in charge. So I think its very likely that Jill either saw something or Joy went running to her, which sparked Jill calling the restaurant. It is possible that another child present made the call though.

- Joy and Jinger, the two youngest victims, made it clear in their statements that they were very much awake and aware of what was going on. In her statement, Jinger started to cry - from what I can recall, her attack was the one that happened in the laundry room and seemed to have been the worst of them (not that that makes the others less horrible or vile - but she seems to have suffered the most from it based off that reaction.)

- Finally, I distinctly remember that there have been times over the years where the other kids have referred to Jill as a tattler (or something along those lines.) For a while everyone just assumed that meant she ratted her siblings out for really stupid stuff. That may still be true, but I find it telling that she is referred to in that manner after learning about the assaults. . . especially because Josh made it a point to refer to her in that way at her wedding rehearsal dinner.

Although, as Jessa's pre-wedding episode proves, the kids also know "you don't mess with Jess," - which could indicate that she was the one who ratted him out.

So, in conclusion to this really stupidly long answer: Yes. The police reports do seem to contradict their claims. :lol:

(And just as an aside: I really don't like the fact that I can recall this stuff off the top of my head. It seems this sort of horrific stuff is difficult for me to forget about.)

[luv2laugh]

To a certain extent, yes.

If I remember correctly, the statements given revealed the following information:

- Jill and Jessa were both asleep when the assaults began, but both woke up at some point during them. I believe it was Jill who stated she woke up when she felt someone pulling the blanket off them. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean they would remember it happening or recall it as anything other than a bad dream - if they were groggy enough they may not have fully realized they were awake until later on.

However, as I mention below, I find it incredibly difficult to believe Josh might voluntarily admit to molesting two of his sisters and a babysitter in their sleep - partly because he was sneaky about it and partly because he went on to escalate the behavior by attacking two more sisters. I find it likely that at least one of the girls (Jill or Jessa) ratted him out.

- Jana was not in the house when the attack on Joy occurred. She was out to dinner with her parents and grandparents at the time and they received a phone call asking they return home. It's unclear who it was who called. JB and Michelle claim that Josh confessed to them - however, the fact that he took great care to be sneaky kind of contradicts this claim as does the fact that the parents and sisters lied (or at least stretched the truth) in the interview.

I have a feeling that JD may have been out to dinner with the group as well - which means its likely that Jill and Jessa would have been home with the other kids and Jill, as the eldest daughter there, may have been left in charge. So I think its very likely that Jill either saw something or Joy went running to her, which sparked Jill calling the restaurant. It is possible that another child present made the call though.

- Joy and Jinger, the two youngest victims, made it clear in their statements that they were very much awake and aware of what was going on. In her statement, Jinger started to cry - from what I can recall, her attack was the one that happened in the laundry room and seemed to have been the worst of them (not that that makes the others less horrible or vile - but she seems to have suffered the most from it based off that reaction.)

- Finally, I distinctly remember that there have been times over the years where the other kids have referred to Jill as a tattler (or something along those lines.) For a while everyone just assumed that meant she ratted her siblings out for really stupid stuff. That may still be true, but I find it telling that she is referred to in that manner after learning about the assaults. . . especially because Josh made it a point to refer to her in that way at her wedding rehearsal dinner.

Although, as Jessa's pre-wedding episode proves, the kids also know "you don't mess with Jess," - which could indicate that she was the one who ratted him out.

So, in conclusion to this really stupidly long answer: Yes. The police reports do seem to contradict their claims. :lol:

(And just as an aside: I really don't like the fact that I can recall this stuff off the top of my head. It seems this sort of horrific stuff is difficult for me to forget about.)

I don't believe a word of JB & Michelle or even Jill & Jessa either. These people have showed time and time again that they are desperate for fame and they were saying ANYTHING they could in that Fox News interview to cover their butts and save the show. They each gave very rehearsed answers as well. They had weeks to prepare for that interview.

[HarleyQuinn]

- Finally, I distinctly remember that there have been times over the years where the other kids have referred to Jill as a tattler (or something along those lines.) For a while everyone just assumed that meant she ratted her siblings out for really stupid stuff. That may still be true, but I find it telling that she is referred to in that manner after learning about the assaults. . . especially because Josh made it a point to refer to her in that way at her wedding rehearsal dinner.

Not only that, but Josh specifically called out Jill on her tattling in her own wedding episode. I have always been under the impression that Joy ran to Jill and she's the one that told.

[LovelyLuna]

Jill has already talked about planning to use "safeguards" (seeing as they worked so well controlling Josh :roll: ) so I reckon Izzy will be locked down at night as soon as his first sister is born.

May she give birth to sons and only sons, a dozen boys for Jill!

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Does anyone know how long the usual Christian rehab lasts? If there is a possibility Joshley will be leaving around the time Baby Seewald arrives, maybe the birth special will also be used to divert media attention from him. I could see JB thinking this way.

Of course, they are probably just glad to get back on the air. I assume the other Duggar kids and maybe JB and J'Chelle will be featured in the specials (no Josh).

Personally, i don't think Josh is in any sort of rehab--not a Gothard-approved, not so-called Christian or secular. I think he's just hiding out. I don't believe he sees any of it as a problem. He strikes me as similar to some young criminals--the thrill is getting away with it, not the action, but getting over. He might be talking on the phone with someone but that's probably about it. I Certainly don't think he's at the place the media keeps saying he might be at in Rockford. Just because his folks have liked it doesn't mean it's where he is. If he's anywhere, my guess would be an ATI bigwigs house or at an ATI facility having "private" counseling--that is talking to some big shot each day.

What I HOPE is he is at a REAL rehab center and they are keeping people off the trial so they can announce it with great fanfare and redeem their image. Not that I want the image fixed, but Josh has been used too and should get REAL help.

[Rubyroo]

May she give birth to sons and only sons, a dozen boys for Jill!

Girls carry more sin so Jill will be the best duggar if she doesn't birth any dirty, sinful girls. /s

[singsingsing]

I have no problem believing that 14-year-old Josh was both effed up enough to molest his siblings, AND brainswashed enough to be the one to confess to his parents.

[halcionne]

I have no problem believing that 14-year-old Josh was both effed up enough to molest his siblings, AND brainswashed enough to be the one to confess to his parents.

Me, neither. It's exactly what he was conditioned to do.

[iweartanktops]

Why are the other girls' names listed above? I thought we were specifically warned at the top of every page against doing so. Just wondering if this has changed?

[Fundie Bunny]

Why are the other girls' names listed above? I thought we were specifically warned at the top of every page against doing so. Just wondering if this has changed?

Naming the two other known víctimas is not forbidden, but highly discouraged.If they have not out ed themselves neither should we. What it is forbidden is to speculation about the identify of the 5th víctimas and the existencia of any other víctimas.

[iweartanktops]

Naming the two other known víctimas is not forbidden, but highly discouraged.If they have not out ed themselves neither should we. What it is forbidden is to speculation about the identify of the 5th víctimas and the existencia of any other víctimas.

Got it! Totally not trying to cause issues, I'm just newish, so I'm getting clarification. Thank you! :)

[ShepherdontheRock]

Why are the other girls' names listed above? I thought we were specifically warned at the top of every page against doing so. Just wondering if this has changed?

You're warned against speculating on the identity of the non family victim/any other potential victims not in the report. It seems to still be up to interpretation as to whether the 2 not officially identified sisters are included in that. I mean, they haven't come forward, so I'm personally going to respect that and not specifically name them here for the time being. Although it's not like we can seriously pretend like we don't have any idea who they are...I mean...

[JenniferJuniper]

You're warned against speculating on the identity of the non family victim/any other potential victims not in the report. It seems to still be up to interpretation as to whether the 2 not officially identified sisters are included in that. I mean, they haven't come forward, so I'm personally going to respect that and not specifically name them here for the time being. Although it's not like we can seriously pretend like we don't have any idea who they are...I mean...

Jessa and Jill outed them on Fox news when they referred to them as the younger ones. Hannie wasn't born yet. So anyone who knows the family knows who the "younger ones" were.

[EmCatlyn]

I have no problem believing that 14-year-old Josh was both effed up enough to molest his siblings, AND brainswashed enough to be the one to confess to his parents.

I believed it at first, but I have begun to have doubts because of his subsequent behavior.

On the other hand, I think it is probable that the first time he fondled one of his sleeping sisters he did so impulsively and without planning in advance. I think the "curious about girls" bit applied initially. He may have noticed that one of the girls was developing breasts and wondered what they felt like. He may have touched out of curiosity, and discovered he got a thrill. When he repeated it, however, the reason was probably not just curiosity. And that may have made him uncomfortable (because he's afraid of hell) and may, after a few repetitions (no way it was just one incident with each girl), he went to his parent in tears etc.

BUT this account doesn't explain his molestation of the younger girls. The escalation from "over the clothes" fondling to "inside the pants" exploration doesn't fit with the idea that he regretted and repented.

So I move to the idea that either something traumatic triggered the escalation (people have speculated that he was molested himself--this is definitely a possibility at this point) or that he is so disturbed by his (to him) sinful sexual desire that he is unconsciously trying to get caught. His parents did not help the first time; will they take it seriously now?

Another possibility, of course, is that even from the first his behavior was predatory and that he either didn't confess or confessed only because he got caught (or feared he might have been caught). If one of the girls seemed to wake (or actually woke) Josh probably thought it best to confess before he was accused. If it was Jill who half-awoke, and she had the rep of being a tattle-tale, he may have figured she was going to tell and he'd better confess first. Similarly, if he feared the non-Duggar victim had "caught" him and might tell, confession (or even accusation in this case, as in, "She was sleeping with her blouse tight on her chest/skirts above her knees... I was overwhelmed") would make him look better than waiting to be accused.

Who knows why (if) he confessed?

How can we even imagine what went through his mind when he molested the two younger girls? Did he just feel entitled ("I want to do this; so I have the right to do it?") or was he trying to channel desires he couldn't satisfy without "sinning"? Surely he must have known his sisters would tell. (They were awake and they would know he shouldn't do what he did.).

If it was a cry for help, the tragedy is he got no help.

[iweartanktops]

Jessa and Jill outed them on Fox news when they referred to them as the younger ones. Hannie wasn't born yet. So anyone who knows the family knows who the "younger ones" were.

Of course it's obvious... I guess my not mentioning names comes from just respecting the fact that they aren't talking about it and that it's their privacy being discussed. Like I said, my question was purely coming from a place of wondering about FJ policy clarification.

Re: Whether or not Josh told on his own, I'm on the fence. I can certainly see it both ways! I absolutely believe he's brainwashed enough to confess to his parents but on the other hand I just can't seem to picture him confessing out of the blue! I don't know about that...

Edited for clarification

[zygote373]

It's clear from the Washington County police report released later that Josh confessed himself. Or at least, that's what they told the police. The report says "James said that in March of 2002, [redacted] who had just turned 14, came to him very upset and crying....." That has to be Josh, who was born in March of 1988.

[EmCatlyn]

Naming the two other known víctimas is not forbidden, but highly discouraged.If they have not out ed themselves neither should we. What it is forbidden is to speculation about the identify of the 5th víctimas and the existencia of any other víctimas.

Just to clarify- I am new too, the problem is not with speculation on the existence of other victims but speculation on the identity of other victims.

In other words (if I understand correctly), we could say that "Josh may have fondled other sleeping girls outside the family at some point" but we may not say, "He probably fondled the Garcia sisters when they were all camping together," or "He probably has been molesting his younger sisters/daughter/cousin." Without names we can speculate that there may (theoretically) be other victims, but not try to pinpoint the victims. Right?

[JenniferJuniper]

It's clear from the Washington County police report released later that Josh confessed himself. Or at least, that's what they told the police. The report says "James said that in March of 2002, [redacted] who had just turned 14, came to him very upset and crying....." That has to be Josh, who was born in March of 1988.

This was 3 - 4 years later. I'd take everything in that police report with a large grain of salt. They couldn't pretend nothing had happened - too many girls involved - but it's likely the Duggar girls were heavily coached and the story about Josh confessing first could very well be a lie to make it seem as though Josh was repentant and understood what he did was wrong. Whether or not his parents were fully aware that the statute of limitations was up, they still wanted Josh to remain at home.

My own personal guess is that the molestations were deliberately downplayed and that Josh did far more than the Duggars would ever admit. Recall that by late '06 they had already been featured in two TLC specials and were probably hoping/angling for a series. They needed Josh at home.

[Becket70]

I just checked the Network vs Network ratings for Cable programs for the week ending 9/20. TLC is in big trouble. They are last (out of 25) for 1) all demographics, 2) the prime demographic and 3) daytime. I think they are delusional if they think bringing the Duggars back will rescue them. They have been mired in controversy and their programs, with some exceptions, are old, stale and often ridiculous. Their "reality" shows come across as totally scripted and over-produced. I don't understand why Discovery Communications is 1) allowing them to bring back the Duggars in any form) and 2) tolerating their choices in programs. I am in no way versed on television programming but it appears they really need to go back to square one and come up with another business model. This one is not working for them. If I were them, I would borrow from HGTV as well as Hallmark Channel. Any other suggestions to bring an increase in the ratings for them?

[JenniferJuniper]

I just checked the Network vs Network ratings for Cable programs for the week ending 9/20. TLC is in big trouble. They are last (out of 25) for 1) all demographics, 2) the prime demographic and 3) daytime. I think they are delusional if they think bringing the Duggars back will rescue them. They have been mired in controversy and their programs, with some exceptions, are old, stale and often ridiculous. Their "reality" shows come across as totally scripted and over-produced. I don't understand why Discovery Communications is 1) allowing them to bring back the Duggars in any form) and 2) tolerating their choices in programs. I am in no way versed on television programming but it appears they really need to go back to square one and come up with another business model. This one is not working for them. If I were them, I would borrow from HGTV as well as Hallmark Channel. Any other suggestions to bring an increase in the ratings for them?

I agree. People love those house hunting-flipping-remodeling shows. I think the era of the phony reality freak show is over. The Blessa and Jilly-Muffin show is a Hail Mary (oops, sorry, Benjermin, Catholic reference!) and I hope it fails miserably for all concerned.

[Buzzard]

TLC hasnt come to the table honestly and will continue to tumble until they do. They never removed the 19KAC link/page from facebook. They never intended on ending their relationship with the duggars and the statement they made regarding the show was done with their fingers crossed. The public isnt going to accept this, not this time, not with this level of dishonesty. The SA special was a farce and it really showed. Its time to stop playing games.

TLC, end the semantics and stop being a platform for these cultist. Go find some actual good family, a family that WORKS, educates their children, maybe even *gasp* adopts. You cant put the monster back in the closet.

[iweartanktops]

Is anyone watching Nancy Grace right now? She's addressing the issue of TLC giving the girls the show...