Joshley Madison Pt 4: That Pig She Calls Her Husband

[LogansMama]

I posted this over in the Jessa thread, but it seems more appropriate here:

I was thinking about how Josh sent Anna and the kids to Jessa's wedding a day or two before he went. What do you want to bet he was porning and cheating the whole time. Also, he was almost late for Jessa's wedding because his plane was delayed. Did that really happen or was he just enjoying his bachelorhood too much?

[Analytica49]

God Bless Daniel Keller. At least one person in that awful Keller family has some sense.

While I entirely agree with Daniel Keller's feelings and beliefs about Smuggar, I'm not at all sure it was a good idea for him to publicize them on Jessa's [i think it was] Facebook page. That's an online location Anna may actually read, either now or in the future.

On the one hand, if, sadly, she decides to stay with Smuggar, then wifely loyalty may require her to repudiate Daniel because of his critical comments on Smuggar. And repudiating Daniel will be a loss to him and an even bigger loss to her.

On the other hand, if she decides to leave SMuggar, the fact that Daniel's angry comments are so public may make it harder to go to him for shelter and support. I'm having trouble explaining why I think this. I just suspect that running to Daniel, after he posted these comments, may make her feel even worse about herself, her life, and her "choice" to marry Smuggar.

And after all, even if Anna leaves Smuggar, he's still the father of her four children. She will have to interact with him in some way. Living with a brother who calls her former husband a "pig" might make it very hard to handle arrangements for his visits with their children.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I posted this over in the Jessa thread, but it seems more appropriate here:

I was thinking about how Josh sent Anna and the kids to Jessa's wedding a day or two before he went. What do you want to bet he was porning and cheating the whole time. Also, he was almost late for Jessa's wedding because his plane was delayed. Did that really happen or was he just enjoying his bachelorhood too much?

Or he was just on Duggar time. I am the last person to defend Josh as a human being, but the truth is bad enough without wondering if every time he was out of eyeshot of an accountability partner he was up to no good.

Cheaters lie, but they also lost track of time, get stuck in traffic, have bad time management, go to the store, work late, etc. like everyone else.

[LogansMama]

Or he was just on Duggar time. I am the last person to defend Josh as a human being, but the truth is bad enough without wondering if every time he was out of eyeshot of an accountability partner he was up to no good.

Cheaters lie, but they also lost track of time, get stuck in traffic, have bad time management, go to the store, work late, etc. like everyone else.

I agree with the bolded completely, but he alluded to his plane being delayed before he even left. And, let's not kid ourselves, he had the house to himself for the night, I'm certain he was on his favorite porn sites...that is, if he wasn't with a girlfriend.

[Analytica49]

You know what bothers me more than Josh cheating? The fact that the Kellers, Jim Bob and Michelle are not protecting Anna. Notice that Jim Bob only married off his girls to men who seem to adore and cherish them. If Ben or Derrick did this to Jessa or Jill, Jim Bob would be the first one there with a moving truck. But they don't value Anna enough to kick Josh out and take care of her and the kids. Why was it okay with Anna's parents that Josh was a molester and now is mistreating her?

Yes, Anna is an adult and she could leave and go to her brother. But I thought the whole point of courtship and their culture was that the father is a protector? No one treasures her (the way the Duggars treasure their daughters) and so she doesn't even know her own worth. It's sad.

I wonder if this gives too much credit to Jim-Boob and ME-chelle. MAYBE they treasure their daughters. But if so, they show it in very implausible ways. For one thing, they treat their daughters like household help and live-in, free nannies while the daughters are living at home.

In addition, I don't think marrying Jessa off to Bin did her any favors; in my opinion Bin is no prize. And Derick is looking less and less valuable, the more we see and read about him.

Would Jim-Boob come and rescue a Duggar daughter, if she was married to an idiot who behaved like Smuggar? I'm not sure. I suspect they think the sanctity of marriage is to be upheld by wives no matter what husbands may do.

[freesarah88]

Shout out to Daniel and Suze for being the most normal people involved in that mess. At least there is someone who recognizes Anna was wronged here.

[jesssr]

what really super duper bothers me about anything that this family does wrong is the forgiveness line they constantly parrot. to be forgiven, in the Christian sense, you're meant to confess your sins and strive to learn from them. there is absolutely no accountability with these people, they just say "forgiven" and expect people to move on. being forgiven for something does not mean an excuse to do whatever you want. and being caught red-handed and issuing a statement does not constitute a confession nor an apology.

"We are all sinners" or "God forgives all" is not an excuse to skirt around the facts. this is a straw man argument. Josh molested his sisters and cheated on his wife. THIS is the issue. not whether or not he is forgiven. former Toronto mayor Rob Ford constantly used this type of argument after being caught many times doing terrible things. he'd say "I never claimed to be perfect". no one ever said you claimed to be perfect, Rob. and no one ever said everyone is without sin, Duggars. people just want Josh to own up to being a piggy douche wallet.

just no humility whatsoever... so gross. he's not sorry in the slightest, only sad he had to end his subscription after his molestation-filled past came to light.

[JenniferJuniper]

Shout out to Daniel and Suze for being the most normal people involved in that mess. At least there is someone who recognizes Anna was wronged here.

Jill and Derick's "Sex Today" Crosschurch link was a total slap in the face to Anna.

The message of the sermon was basically that spouses (wives) are responsible for their spouses' (husband's) infidelities.

While not all the Duggars may feel this way, between this nonsense and Jessa's forgiveness bullshit, the two highest profile Duggars still talking are no doubt sharing the party line with us.

I think Daniel and Suze get this, or are getting the message directly from Anna that she feels she hasn't measured up as a wife to Smuggar.

Anna's in a bad place. She needs to take her kids and have some time away from Josh and the rest of his slimy family. Daniel is probably not a viable option given his black sheep status. The Wallers would provide distance, but they'd be coaching her the same way the pastor did in his sermon. What are her options?

[Gimme a Free RV]

From a Christian perspective, Christ forgives confessed sin. If He didn't, His death would have been in vain. However, forgiven or not, there are consequences to sin.

Josh doesn't get a free pass (or at least, he shouldn't) just because he said he was sorry. I agree with the others who've said he was more likely sorry he got caught, than anything else. Whatever he said publicly and whatever he's said privately, before God, doesn't fix the devastating hurt, shame, embarrassment, and emotional hell he is putting Anna through. It doesn't change the consequence of the record of his actions being visible--thanks to the Internet age--for his children to discover when they are older. It doesn't reverse any STDs he might have contracted and passed along. It doesn't mean he gets to move on with his life while he leaves familial destruction in his wake. There is no magic wand to make history disappear.

Even if he turns out to be a complete angel after all of this, he will always carry the label he earned and will have a nearly impossible task of earning people's trust, ever again.

[LilyRose]

Jill and Derick's "Sex Today" Crosschurch link was a total slap in the face to Anna.

The message of the sermon was basically that spouses (wives) are responsible for their spouses' (husband's) infidelities.

While not all the Duggars may feel this way, between this nonsense and Jessa's forgiveness bullshit, the two highest profile Duggars still talking are no doubt sharing the party line with us.

I think Daniel and Suze get this, or are getting the message directly from Anna that she feels she hasn't measured up as a wife to Smuggar.

Anna's in a bad place. She needs to take her kids and have some time away from Josh and the rest of his slimy family. Daniel is probably not a viable option given his black sheep status. The Wallers would provide distance, but they'd be coaching her the same way the pastor did in his sermon. What are her options?

If I remember correctly she has an older sister who, after getting married, stopped being fundie and became a normal conservative Christian- I think it was the husband of this sister who had some choice things to say about Josh, the Duggars, the wedding and the whole TLC circus generally at the time of Josh and Anna's wedding.

I don't think that this sister is totally considered a black sheep, in spite of being non-fundy, if this branch of Anna's family are supportive than I think they would be the best placed to help her. Thier conservative views might mean that Anna is more likely to listen to them and actually hear what they have to say without writing it off as sinful libralism, and hopefully because they are non-fundy they would actually speak sense and assure her that she is not to blame for this, and that she has options and no-one in their right mind woould think badly of her for walking away and never looking back

[nokidsmom]

While I entirely agree with Daniel Keller's feelings and beliefs about Smuggar, I'm not at all sure it was a good idea for him to publicize them on Jessa's [i think it was] Facebook page. That's an online location Anna may actually read, either now or in the future.

On the one hand, if, sadly, she decides to stay with Smuggar, then wifely loyalty may require her to repudiate Daniel because of his critical comments on Smuggar. And repudiating Daniel will be a loss to him and an even bigger loss to her.

On the other hand, if she decides to leave SMuggar, the fact that Daniel's angry comments are so public may make it harder to go to him for shelter and support. I'm having trouble explaining why I think this. I just suspect that running to Daniel, after he posted these comments, may make her feel even worse about herself, her life, and her "choice" to marry Smuggar.

And after all, even if Anna leaves Smuggar, he's still the father of her four children. She will have to interact with him in some way. Living with a brother who calls her former husband a "pig" might make it very hard to handle arrangements for his visits with their children.

I totally agree with Daniel's assessment of Josh and quite frankly it cheers me to see that at least one member of the Keller family gets it. That said, I don't think it was a good idea to post on Jessa's FB. He no doubt means well and probably his justifiable anger got the better of him, but posting this publicly does not help Anna. I do agree that it makes it harder for her to go to him for support. She has a enough on her plate emotionally at this time and hearing her brother call her husband a "pig", while true, will only serve to make her worry about how it reflects on her.

As someone who had a family member marry someone who was just as much of a pig, we refrained from openly giving in to our honest feelings for her sake when she finally had enough. She still had kids by this guy and she no doubt was beating herself up for her choices. The kids were old enough to understand what was going on and it was counterproductive for them to hear these things about their dad, however true.

[MakingLaundrySoap]

I feel so badly for Anna. I can't imagine what an insult to her self worth - insomuch as she's "allowed" to have. When one's whole identity revolves the King of Castle and the heirs and it's HER job to keep it all running shiny happy. Wow. Her world is so very small, repressed, compressed and insular.

[Gimme a Free RV]

While I entirely agree with Daniel Keller's feelings and beliefs about Smuggar, I'm not at all sure it was a good idea for him to publicize them on Jessa's [i think it was] Facebook page. That's an online location Anna may actually read, either now or in the future.

I totally agree with Daniel's assessment of Josh and quite frankly it cheers me to see that at least one member of the Keller family gets it. That said, I don't think it was a good idea to post on Jessa's FB. He no doubt means well and probably his justifiable anger got the better of him, but posting this publicly does not help Anna. I do agree that it makes it harder for her to go to him for support. She has a enough on her plate emotionally at this time and hearing her brother call her husband a "pig", while true, will only serve to make her worry about how it reflects on her.

You are correct, NKM and I wish I could always take the high road when someone hurts a member of my family. Unfortunately, I allow anger to rule over reason in these kinds of situations.

I understand that Daniel loves his sister and wants to inflict hurt on Josh. Thank God for brothers who would go the extra mile to stand up for their sisters, I hope his comments don't cause Anna problems later on. Knowing her brother, though, I think she probably understands (and, on some level) appreciates his anger.

Edited to "confess": I think I attributed part of a quote to the wrong FJ member. Sorry!

[nokidsmom]

From a Christian perspective, Christ forgives confessed sin. If He didn't, His death would have been in vain. However, forgiven or not, there are consequences to sin.

Josh doesn't get a free pass (or at least, he shouldn't) just because he said he was sorry. I agree with the others who've said he was more likely sorry he got caught, than anything else. Whatever he said publicly and whatever he's said privately, before God, doesn't fix the devastating hurt, shame, embarrassment, and emotional hell he is putting Anna through. It doesn't change the consequence of the record of his actions being visible--thanks to the Internet age--for his children to discover when they are older. It doesn't reverse any STDs he might have contracted and passed along. It doesn't mean he gets to move on with his life while he leaves familial destruction in his wake. There is no magic wand to make history disappear.

Even if he turns out to be a complete angel after all of this, he will always carry the label he earned and will have a nearly impossible task of earning people's trust, ever again.

One of the things that gets me about the "God has forgiven me so you should too" blather is that it's really "God has forgiven me so I shouldn't have to face any real world consequences". It's a defection to not only make it go away, it requires that people stifle their feelings about what was done and just get over it. Nothing more to see here, move along.

Agree that in the internet age Josh will never fully be rid of the labels he carries now. Not only consequences of cheating but also consequences of high profile hypocrisy. And that he lobbied against many people's rights while participating in that hypocrisy. Because he will never shed that label I agree with others that he might decide he has nothing more to lose by leaving Anna eventually and enbracing a different life.

[tcach]

How in the heck did this nimrod manage to get 11 women to sleep with him?).

My thoughts too - ELEVEN? But he did use a fairly attractive picture (even thought it wasn't him) and his online profile wasn't all that repulsive. Josh could have bragged about it when he was with her.

And how did they find out about it? Does Ashley Madison really keep records of that stuff? And how would they KNOW?

I could see how this might happen. If an AM staffer contacted one of the tabloid tip lines ($$$) and the tabloid wanted to pay for an interview they would need to check the veracity.

I could completely see people lying just to get their 15 minutes (although why they'd want to claim having sex with that doofus for fame is beyond me).

I think if anything it was just to put it to the Duggar family. Remember, they aren't universally loved and revered. I'm the one who happened upon the FB posts and haven't seen it leaked elsewhere so, yeah, YMMV.

[nokidsmom]

You are correct, NKM and I wish I could always take the high road when someone hurts a member of my family. Unfortunately, I allow anger to rule over reason in these kinds of situations.

I understand that Daniel loves his sister and wants to inflict hurt on Josh. Thank God for brothers who would go the extra mile to stand up for their sisters, I hope his comments don't cause Anna problems later on. Knowing her brother, though, I think she probably understands (and, on some level) appreciates his anger.

It was hard for my family members to take that high road and I personally know what one of them really, really thinks (and it wasn't pretty), but their concerns were primarily for my cousin and her kids. They knew that whatever happened to the ex, they would still have those relationships to preserve.

[RabbitKM]

I agree with the bolded completely, but he alluded to his plane being delayed before he even left. And, let's not kid ourselves, he had the house to himself for the night, I'm certain he was on his favorite porn sites...that is, if he wasn't with a girlfriend.

I think he was actually on the campaign trail with his hate group. The whole family was, it was all over social media the week of her wedding.

[Gimme a Free RV]

One of the things that gets me about the "God has forgiven me so you should too" blather is that it's really "God has forgiven me so I shouldn't have to face any real world consequences". It's a defection to not only make it go away, it requires that people stifle their feelings about what was done and just get over it. Nothing more to see here, move along.

This is exactly the way my soon-to-be-ex and his family are reacting.

"Oh, look. He said he was sorry and he's still going to church. Let's forget all of this and move forward, shall we?"

"We know God isn't finished with you yet. You are so talented and have so much to offer Him."

"I just want to get this divorce on the road so I can get on with my life."

Notice there is no mention of how sorry he and the family are for how my life has been completely re-routed or how our adult daughter is suffering. No, all they can think about is damage/image control and how the STBE can step back in the spotlight he loves so much.

Much like a toddler's mentality: "If I close my eyes, you can't see me!"

However, like a toddler, I hope the "monsters" (of consequences) disturb Josh and STBE every night they try to fall asleep.

[JenniferJuniper]

You are correct, NKM and I wish I could always take the high road when someone hurts a member of my family. Unfortunately, I allow anger to rule over reason in these kinds of situations.

I understand that Daniel loves his sister and wants to inflict hurt on Josh. Thank God for brothers who would go the extra mile to stand up for their sisters, I hope his comments don't cause Anna problems later on. Knowing her brother, though, I think she probably understands (and, on some level) appreciates his anger.

Edited to "confess": I think I attributed part of a quote to the wrong FJ member. Sorry!

Sometimes you just gotta call a pig a pig.

[Janes Heir]

Firstly, Gothard as Voldemort even works on an appearance level.(Not that Gothard was probably ever cute like young Tom Riddle. Ugh.) Gothard may have a nose, but there's just something non-human about his look.

Secondly, per talk about what someone like Jessa would do to a cheater: I don't particularly like Jessa, but I have some "bitch" in me. If I ever marry I will be telling the guy, "I'll go full out Medea on you if you ever cheat." And I'll be marrying someone educated enough to get the reference. Okay, actually not Medea, because I'd never do that to kids... but it wouldn't be pretty for him.

Or maybe not. Because our culture hasn't come far from 431 BCE and a woman who takes steps to regain her kleos after being wronged will just be considered a "crazy bitch" and feed MRA fantasies/fears (like the novel Gone Girl. In the statistically not improbable event that I were ever cheated on, I'd probably follow countless women and do my best to retain my dignity.

[Kak]

Sometimes you just gotta call a pig a pig.

ITA.

That little bit of support could make a huge difference to Anna's state of mind right now. Just the thought that her brother doesn't blame her could comfort her. I think it was important that he said what he did where he did.

[Buzzard]

As to the 11, its possible (I dont know how A/M works) that they request feedback after a date, especially because the paid to guarantee an affair. They may ask 1) did the person show up and 2) did he do anything freaky/squicky/illegal that they need to be aware of.

11 doesnt shock me, I actually thought it would be a lot higher considering how long he was on the site.

Josh is a pig and Anna's parents are disgusting for selling her into this family and encouraging her to stay. I truly hope that she gets to a dr and gets tested ASAP.

[2manyKidzzz]

It is one thing to be cheated on and then another on top of that to have all of your in-laws preaching it was your fault. And your parents in agreement. What in the hell is Anna suppposed to do to keep her sanity? Just love on her children I would guess.

I don't know if Piggie is a pedophile. But he diddled rather directly with a five year old sister. Icky-poo. He is a slut. He has hurt so many people. And those idiot fundies love what he did.

As for Jill and Jessa. They are awful. Awful. The Kool-Aid flavor is Betrayal.

[Justme]

Besides the grand Josh spent for AM, he'd surly have to have spent much more. Hotel rooms in DC are not cheap. They could have also had dinner or drinks before hopping into bed.

Unless Josh parked that RV on a street corner for their "business".

[JenniferJuniper]

I just watched a video on youtube wherein Smuggar The Pig likened the birth control pill to the murder of innocent life as it can cause "abortions".

If he engaged in sexual intercourse with 11 ladies (love it...Josh's infidelities go to 11) then presumably most were on the Pill. Does Josh see himself as complicit in the murder of his potential babies, or is that all on the women?

Maybe (hopefully for Anna's sake) he used a condom, but that's against the rules too. And since he doesn't use one at home, I'm not sure I see him dulling his pleasure during his extracurricular dalliances.