Joshley Madison Pt 4: That Pig She Calls Her Husband

[LilyRose]

Loving Daniel Keller on Jessa' Facebook page. Alos loving the fact that Free Jinger has provided me with the best line ever for when I have "the talk" with my boys when they're a bit older (I don't have any daughters) "Boys remember just because an erection is created in her honour, a girl is under no obligation to do anything about it." :lol:

I feel so sorry for Anna in all of this. Obviously there is never a good time to find out something like this, but to find out about it so soon after giving birth, when she's likely already feeling incredibly vulnerable is especially awful.

I like to think that Anna would leave over this, and it's great to see that she has the support for her "normal" siblings if she chose to. But I don't think that she will (though I sincerely hope I am wrong). I think it's very common for women who experience infidelity, or abuse to doubt themselves initially, and worry that it was somehow their fault, that they did something wrong, that they weren't good enough etc. Fortunately for many people their friends, and family will rally round them at that time to try and stamp out those seeds of self doubt and try to assure them that they they are absolutely in no way at fault.

But in Anna's case the exact opposite is true. It has been hammered into her since birth, and now many of those around her whom she loves and respects will be very quick to reinforce that message that if she had been a better wife then Josh wouldn't have done this (perhaps not so bluntly as that, but that's the message they will put across to her).

[tcach]

I couldn't find an active thread here for discussion of the Duggar's Official FB page. I was just looking at it and saw this

My sister met up with Joshua Duggar while on a business trip in the D.C. area.

All of a sudden she is getting messages from Ashley Madison corporate, attorneys and tabloids offering cash for her side of the story.

Apparently she is one of at least eleven who has slept with Joshua.

Grain of salt and all that but in a subsequent post the brother says that Josh used another J alias and it wasn't Joe or John. Hmmm.

[tcach]

Since it probably won't be there for long I thought I'd post the second part from the same person that is on the Official FB page. Again, I can't vouch for the validity but I thought it seemed plausible.

My sister didn't even know who Josh Dugger was when she fooled around with him. He told her his name was Jason. She recently found out when Ashley Madison contacted her with the details. She's not married, she just enjoys sleeping with married men. (which I don't condone.)

[theilnana]

Since it probably won't be there for long I thought I'd post the second part from the same person that is on the Official FB page. Again, I can't vouch for the validity but I thought it seemed plausible.

I've been on forums of some sort or another for years and you get a lot of this kind of thing when a news story blows up. I just don't buy it. Sorry, but the main reason Joshy-Boy would be on AM would be that married women would keep their dirty little secret. I just don't see this happening the way the FB women claims. Josh may be a tool but he knows enough to know that he would be recognized. The Duggars all glory in their fame. This is some sort of Facebook attention-getter.

[DeFrauder]

Long time lurker first time poster ect...

Ok this is my thought, Anna gave birth on July 19th and as the fundies believe she should abstain from sex for 80 days because she gave birth to a girl; so she is off the hook for having to sleep with the pig for now. So, does this mean that she'll be pressured to have sex on October 7th? Will she be a bad helpmate if she refuses him in October? Will she be told that she has to sleep with with him as part of her forgiveness process? Will the people around her tell her that Joshy has been under so much stress and that sex would be healing for him and that as a good forgiving wife she as to submit?

It's more than likely that she'll stay with him. I actually think the fundie women will be the ones to encourage her to have sex with him ASAP. They'll say that Joshy actually needs sex because of what he has just been through. It makes my skin crawl to think of this poor women having to sleep with him so soon. Thank God for Meredith at least he has a ATI sanctioned break till October 7th.

What are you talking about? No sex for 80 days because she had a girl?

People are not supposed to have sex for 8 weeks or so after giving birth because the vagina is all tender and maybe there are stitches from an episiotomy. It has nothing to do with what sex the baby is.

There might be some fundies out there that have a weird belief like you are saying, but I am confident that the Duggars do not share it.

Where did you hear this information?

[truthseeker]

This breaks my heart. I am so sorry. Glad you got out and I hope all is well for you and your son now.

Same. You are obviously a very strong lady, and your son - and any women in his life - will benefit from your example. Thank you, on behalf of all our daughters.

[DuggaredOut]

Sorry, still got to disagree with you about Josh being a pedophile. The definition of that word states it must be an adult. Josh was a minor. A minor teenage boy touching a little girl is still awful, don't get me wrong, but it's not pedophilia.

Well, if you want to get technical about it, the DSM-5 defines a pedophile as someone who is at least 16 and has had sexual thoughts about or engaged in sexual behavior with someone at least five years younger for six months or more. So Josh was exactly one year too young to meet that criteria. Make of that what you will.

[Whipple]

Well, if you want to get technical about it, the DSM-5 defines a pedophile as someone who is at least 16 and has had sexual thoughts about or engaged in sexual behavior with someone at least five years younger for six months or more. So Josh was exactly one year too young to meet that criteria. Make of that what you will.

Okay so not "technically" a pedo according to current DSM-V definition. However, pedophiles are not magically conjured up from the ether upon their 16th birthday. Something has to be brewing for a while. If I was a professional seeing him, I would have treated his case as if he was a pedophile. He took advantage of very tiny humans abusing his power again and again with no consequence. Sick fuck at any age. It tells you what an entitled pig he is. The fact that he used his power and continued to use it speaks volumes. That's why I'm in the Anna leave him camp. If they live together 60 years, that means 60 years of suffering for Anna and her children, and grandchildren, with Josh's personality disorder reverberating through the generations wreaking the worst kind of destruction. It is Anna's responsibility to go against everything she has been taught and all the crap she is hearing and leave. Being a mom isn't Romper Room. Her responsibility is to her children.

[blessalessi]

Okay so not "technically" a pedo according to current DSM-V definition. However, pedophiles are not magically conjured up from the ether upon their 16th birthday. Something has to be brewing for a while. If I was a professional seeing him, I would have treated his case as if he was a pedophile.

If you were a professional seeing him, you would have the benefit of your professional education behind you, and would know that molestation by a minor may or may not equal pedophilia, depending on other factors that would need to be explored. ;)

[DuggaredOut]

I'm wondering what made her siblings being able to leave the cult? After all, they were raised by the same parents in the same environment? So, if they could see past the brainwashing, and were able to realize the errors of the Gothard-cult, why can't their still-fundie siblings?

I'm having a bit trouble to word my thoughts right, English is not my native language after all, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find it always noteworthy, how people, who were raised in the same environment, sometimes turn out completely different. Sure, people have different characters and personality traits, but it is still remarkable how brainwashing for years works with some people while others can resist it.

I find this a very interesting subject, too. I don't think we can underestimate how much different characters and personality traits, as you said, play into it. For example, some people are born independent thinkers. They question and question and question some more. As adults, they say they never really bought into their parents' beliefs even as young children and took the first opportunity to throw off the household rules. And then there are people who are born less intellectually curious and perhaps more group-oriented. These kids are more concerned about fitting in with their family and friends than with examining and testing their beliefs. Even if they do someday realize they have their doubts, they may shrug them off because "objective truth" isn't as important as maintaining those familial bonds. These are two distinct personality types, and the outcomes for each of them will probably be quite different.

And then you also have to consider that even two people born into the same household will have different life experiences. One is the first child; the other is the last. One gets along with the parents; the other doesn't. One spends some formative years in the city; the other is born in the country. One can remember hard times early on; the other only knows luxury. In this way, two kids can be raised by the same parents but still grow up in two different environments, and that can have an impact on development, too.

[DeFrauder]

There seems to be some confusion and misinformation about what fundies like the Duggars believe about sex in marriage.

Despite some weirdness and old-fashionedness, the Duggars are pretty orthodox in their adherence to scripture. Yes, they do have extreme views, and extreme interpretations of scripture. And YES they also go on at length about how awesome and preferable married sex is and that it is important to be available.

They will rely on 1 Corinthians 7:1-5 to guide them. This was an instruction about sex by Paul who was upset about a bunch of fornication and adultery going on in the church at Corinth. The church members were fighting about whether fornication and adultery mattered and this had to do with Greek philosophy and the division between the spirit and the body. The other thing was that some people thought that they were supposed to avoid sex altogether and be celibate, which was also causing problems too.

So in a nutshell, Paul wrote down some instructions to the drama filled Corinthian church and told them to stop fucking anything that moved and pay attention to your spouses instead. Don't deprive each other of sex for ascetic reasons unless you both agree to be ascetics for a set amount of time. He emphasized that both husbands and wives had a duty to the other. So he slapped both sides of the flame war down and said they were both wrong (ie: no more fucking around on the side and no more proclaiming celibacy while leaving your poor spouse out in the cold).

1 Corinthians 7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Some also interpret that illness of one of the spouses is also a reason to not expect any nookie.

They recognize that Michelle has needs and JB better hop to it when she calls. It is not simply a case of the woman needs to spread her legs any time, anywhere.

So some might think this scripture means "spread em, spread em now, before Satan makes me call a hooker!"---but that would be an extreme and unpopular interpretation. So unpopular that not even the Duggars would subscribe to it.

When Michelle's advises always being available to one's husband for sex she doesn't mean "let your husband rip open your episiotomy stitches and send you to the hospital".

Some on FJ think the Duggars have this extreme view, but I am fairly confident that this isn't quite the case. If only Michelle would drop in here and set this issue straight.

They would also be guided by Hebrews 13: 4 that reads:

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Josh, as an adulterer would never be off the hook because Anna didn't put out. Adultery soils (defiles) the marriage bed and the adulterer can expect God's wrath. His infidelity would be viewed as a reason WHY she was unable to put out. Plus, in a patriarchal movement (like Gothardism) it is Josh's responsibility to create harmony in their home and sexual activity. Women are considered to RESPOND to how the husband conducts himself and how he treats her. If the husband is getting a poor response from his wife, it is because he is failing at leadership.

This is WHY Michelle stares at JB like an automaton hanging on his every word and jumps to all his commands. She is DEMONSTRATING to everyone watching that she respects JBs leadership and that he is properly fulfilling his role as head of the family.

If Josh is saying that he is an adulterer because Anna doesn't put out enough---then he is just a piece of shit--although we actually already know that he is. Every fundie they know will view the situation as Josh being incapable of leadership and headship in the home.

[Kak]

I'm glad Anna's brother has supported her in public and has condemned Josh in public.

I can't understand her parents though. How could their ties to their religion be so much stronger than their need and duty to look after their daughter and grandkids? At what point would they let the religion go if it conflicted with the needs of a child? Especially in this type of situation, when Anna is not rebelling, but is also trying to live the perfect fundy life.

What a shitty shitty way to behave. What a terrible system of rules they live by.

[nelliebelle1197]

trimmed a lot per the request and thanks for your support. I haven't' seen my dad in 7 years, we talk a few times a year briefly...that helps a lot, very little contact....

I debated whether to be specific but since in my experience "outing" a person who wants to be sexual with small children works well in protecting innocents (my younger cousins, my nieces, my friends) from being victimized. It would be GREAT if none of these girls were EVER alone with Josh. Also Josie I truly feel is the only one that would open Michelle and JB's eyes, so if she comes to them and says he tried something I hope they would react. I DO NOT want any of them harmed or victimized. But molestation relies on a code of silence, the louder you warn children of them the better. I will go self edit since I get the icky points.

And in my eyes he is a pedophile. He was 15 and a victim was 4...who he seemed to do the most to , while she was awake....that is pedophilia and incest no less!

update: couldn't edit my original post....I guess there is a time limit. Sorry to all of those who were icked out...

You can have any opinion you want, but it has been clearly demonstrated over the last several months there is no evidence Josh is a pedophile. That is not a word that should be thrown around lightly. Pedophilia cannot be diagnosed until an individual is at least 16. There has to be a clear preference for children. It is an actual diagnosis that has an actual meaning. Let's not minimize the destruction real pedophiles do by conflating it here. I will eat my words without shame if Josh is proven to be pedophile later. But based on the evidence, he was a severely repressed, opportunistic offender, nothing more

[Walking Cat Bed]

In case the message was lost in the long replies and quotes-

Do not speculate about the molestation of other children in the Duggar orbit! That is really beyond the bounds of common decency. And it is unnecessary and just icky.

I agree with this so much. The Duggar girls (I'm including the married women who aren't Michelle with the unmarried and littles) have enough to deal with right now.

[FreeJesusFromFundies]

That would be great but Daniel and Suz could do this because they left the cult. None of the Duggars* are financially independent so they don't have the freedom to speak their minds even if they felt this way, and certainly aren't in the position to offer support and s place to live.

*possible exception might be JD - I have no idea if he is financally independent or if his house is his or owned in part by JB and M.

There are other family members like Grandma Duggar, JB's sister, Amy, etc... that don't tow the fundie line. Even Michelle's family. They aren't fundies either. Any of these people could/should stand up.

[blessalessi]

I'm glad Anna's brother has supported her in public and has condemned Josh in public.

I can't understand her parents though. How could their ties to their religion be so much stronger than their need and duty to look after their daughter and grandkids? At what point would they let the religion go if it conflicted with the needs of a child? Especially in this type of situation, when Anna is not rebelling, but is also trying to live the perfect fundy life.

What a shitty shitty way to behave. What a terrible system of rules they live by.

They don't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer. I doubt that either grew up with penchant for independent thinking. They are simply spouting the party line, as ever. It doesn't help that from birth children are thought of as "vipers in diapers" who need to be brainwashed and beaten to save them from hell.

I am glad there was a kick of life somewhere in the family gene pool and I am so happy that Daniel and Suze are openly calling Josh out for being a total jerk.

[Arrowoftruth]

I'm really REALLY angry at Jessa and Jill for talking about forgiveness like as if it's any of their business. In regards to the molestation issue, whatever, that's their stage to set. But how DARE they tell Anna, who's probably just discovered that her husband of 7 years is cheating on her, with four children, to forgive like that? Jessa has barely known Ben two years and Jill is living out a fairy tale as a white missionary while Joy plays aunt-mom. I doubt they can even imagine this pain. It's none of their business to declare whether he should be forgiven or not and I'm so embarrassed by the tackiness of it all.

When will they get tired of defending their scumbag brother? While Jessa plays house with Ben, Anna is suffering and she's suffering hard. Not only that, but if Josh was stupid enough to have unprotected sex with anyone, she could be in serious danger of illness.

Honestly, Jessa and Jill have always grated my nerves because they've always acted like brats, but this is absolutely BEYOND me. So so tacky.

If Ben cheated on Jessa, shed probably poison his food and set his clothes on fire. Be real Jessa!

[FreeJesusFromFundies]

You can have any opinion you want, but it has been clearly demonstrated over the last several months there is no evidence Josh is a pedophile. That is not a word that should be thrown around lightly. Pedophilia cannot be diagnosed until an individual is at least 16. There has to be a clear preference for children. It is an actual diagnosis that has an actual meaning. Let's not minimize the destruction real pedophiles do by conflating it here. I will eat my words without shame if Josh is proven to be pedophile later. But based on the evidence, he was a severely repressed, opportunistic offender, nothing more

I wholeheartedly agree. Josh has enough of his own issues. We don't need to make a stretch for other labels, speculated activities, and questionable social media accounts.

[chris]

If Ben cheated on Jessa, shed probably poison his food and set his clothes on fire. Be real Jessa!

Jessa would totally out-Taylor Swift Taylor Swift!

[blessalessi]

Jessa would totally out-Taylor Swift Taylor Swift!

There is a whole thread for inane bitching on Jessa Seewald. Please use it and allow us to focus here on That Pig.

[Alicja]

I think it's great that she has other people she loves who are giving her a very different message than she's getting in the cult.

If she isn't able/doesn't want to leave now she knows someone loves her and the M's enough to be angry. Enough to offer a place to stay and the money to do it. I have to believe that even if she can't go, or doesn't want to...even if she may be uncomfortable that they are truth screamers about Josh I have to believe there is some comfort - even if only in her quietest moments - that two people she loves have her back.

I would imagine that even for a true believer the syrupy forgiveness and platitudes, looking for some portion of blame couched in words of support has to be just fucking exhausting. So I'd think there would be solace in knowing the anger and protection is raw and real. Outside of the love between herself and those babies I don't know how many relationships she has that are real like that.

I'm not saying others don't love her and she them - of course they do - but the cult thinking complicates them.

Sometimes what people say to us doesn't land right away. But some statements, for good and bad, can live in our heads and nudge us at various times in our lives. Just because she may not leave now doesn't mean the support from Daniel and Suz didn't land. It could be something she carries with her giving her comfort even if no one watching through the media would ever know that.

Or maybe not. I don't know her, but I know for most people when we're in a dark place and can't fight for ourselves someone else taking up the mantle on our behalf can give us strength.

But good for Daniel. And her parents are fuckers and I hope at some point in their lives they each have a come to Jesus moment (if you'll pardon the expression) where they realize the harm they've done to their kids and I hope the waves of guilt and pain fucking cripple them emotionally.

Seems like the perpetrators of this crap get off so easy.

They do. It's always the abusers who get off scot-free, while the survivors have to deal with the wounds left for years to come... It's so unfair.

[polecat]

I couldn't find an active thread here for discussion of the Duggar's Official FB page. I was just looking at it and saw this

Grain of salt and all that but in a subsequent post the brother says that Josh used another J alias and it wasn't Joe or John. Hmmm.

How in the heck did this nimrod manage to get 11 women to sleep with him? And how did they find out about it? Does Ashley Madison really keep records of that stuff? And how would they KNOW?

I'm taking that with a big grain of salt. I could completely see people lying just to get their 15 minutes (although why they'd want to claim having sex with that doofus for fame is beyond me).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

There are other family members like Grandma Duggar, JB's sister, Amy, etc... that don't tow the fundie line. Even Michelle's family. They aren't fundies either. Any of these people could/should stand up.

Good point - I wasn't thinking outside of the main Duggar box.

[KnittingOwl]

Jessa would totally out-Taylor Swift Taylor Swift!

Is it Carrie Underwood that has the song about destroying a truck? I don't see that happening with Anna

[Fascinated]

I wonder if Anna and Daniel have actually spoken to each other. Perhaps they have, but, since he is resorting to commenting through fb, I assume they have not. If that is the case, is it because Anna doesn't want to or because it is being prevented by some third party?

I think Daniel needs to tread carefully here. If she is not (yet?) open to hearing Daniel's (justified) opinions of Josh, he might end up pushing her away. His support of Anna is wonderful but I think he should tone down the vitriol. I am afraid it might backfire.