Duggars By the Dozen - General Discussion - Part 12

[Seven Severn]

I think Fivestone is in reference to the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures story of David and Goliath when David picked up 5 stones before his fight with Goliath.

I bet you're right. Of course Josh would see himself as David going up against someone/-thing more powerful than him. He's the underdog, dontcha know! It wouldn't surprise me at all if Fivestone was intended to have something to do with his eventual running for office just as the fixer-upper was to establish residency. This is all assumption on my part, but I think it fits with what we know about the Duggars, their ambitions, and Josh's political "connections".

[DuggarWatch]

I think that that's odd because 'supposedly' he wanted to leave Wal-mart for another job, so why would he mention his job at Wal-mart like it was a highlight of last year, compared to this year, when he left on his own accord for 'another' job? There is a lot these people hide. Things they say just don't make sense. :liar:

... and, he has yet to say just exactly what his 'new job' is! First, they said they were going to Nepal to be missionaries. Now they just filed a new non-profit company, Dillard Family Ministries, on 6/17/2015. Jill and Derick are listed as directors. Neither one has a Bible college degree or is an ordained minister. Starting your own company isn't the same as 'getting a job.'

[justbecause]

I think it's all just a phony act for some (JB and perhaps Jessa) and brainwashing for many others (Jill comes to mind). The reason I think this is because as you have illustrated above, their words, actions and outcomes do not mesh. For those of who are not brainwashed, it's crystal clear that their beliefs are built on quicksand, yet many of them are blinded to that fact, despite being surrounded by sand up their nostrils, while others *cough*, JB, yells," sand, what sand, no sand here folks".

What someone from TLC, DHS, the bank and his kids need to tell JB is that he fools no one and quite frankly, that he's full of shit!

Really though, their reality even on reality tv is not 'reality''. I've been reading some different pieces about people who have actually filmed or were to film on 19K & C, I am thinking about the wedding of either Jessa or Jill, my rememberence is it is Jill, but don't quote me on that.

So, one of the groomsman, standing up for the wedding since it was being taped wrote a post/article about the experience. He was saying that TLC had everyone in the wedding sign agreements that they would do things a certain way and this guy didn't want to sign it. And he went back and forth with TLC about him being in the episode. I believe that in the end he relented because it was like a few days before the wedding and they would have had to kick him out of the wedding party if he did not sign, because TLC refused to blur the face of the guy or something saying that would make for bad tv.

He was suppose to follow a certain script of how things were to go when filming the wedding and he protested. So, in the end, I think the guy just signed because he didn't want to cause the family distress right before the wedding when everything was set or something.

I read another article or something about how after Jill got her mid-wifery training that one of Anna's sister's (if memory serves correctly) was pregnant out of wedlock and wanted Jill to help deliver her baby, but that J'chelle refused to let Jill deliver the baby, because the girl was not married or something.

So, all is not what it seems on 'reality tv'. It seems there is a lot of 'directing' that goes on from the Directors of the show and that the Director's do recommended the way that reality should play out during taping.

So, the reality they live is not really reality at all. After being accepted for their 'real' lives. :liar: I think that they have created persona's that they want to keep up.

I think the entire idea and having and taping that show has been an exercise in brainwashing and having a 'created' persona of each of the older kids, that is not really them and is probably like the way they are always smiling. It's just not real emotion, or real anything. I think their entire lives have been an exercise in 'presenting' what one thinks they should be.

I'll see if I can find the articles, I think I bookmarked them.

[justbecause]

I bet you're right. Of course Josh would see himself as David going up against someone/-thing more powerful than him. He's the underdog, dontcha know! It wouldn't surprise me at all if Fivestone was intended to have something to do with his eventual running for office just as the fixer-upper was to establish residency. This is all assumption on my part, but I think it fits with what we know about the Duggars, their ambitions, and Josh's political "connections".

I'm not sure about the naming of the company, but I know that these people have a serious 'us' against 'them' thing going on. As a matter of fact, being a Christian martyr and taking one for the team of God is a very valuable tool in their beliefs that they are 'persecuted Christians'. Even JB in the Megyn interview was talking about how the family had been targeted by the liberal media, blah, blah, blah.

I read an article about it. What the article said was that as a public figure that in fact, compared to others in the entertaiment industry (like Gosselin's, Kardashians, singers like RIhanna, movie actors like Gweneth Paltrow) that the tablioids have always went very easy on the Duggars and they never really got any press that was not positive, because they presented themselves as only positive and since they did not go out, or divorce or have any scandals, they thought the Duggars had a very 'happy' view of how public life is. But in reality, being a public persona puts everything that you do and say on blast for the entire world.

Now all of a sudden, the Duggars got a skeleton in their donated by TLC house and closet and they are 'being persecuted as Christians'. Which is really not true at all. They went out there with their big mouths w/ J'chelle's Robocall as holier than thou and Josh with the FRC talking about LGBT issues and hey, someone dug up Duggar dirt.

Now I am a Christian, real Christian persecution is taking place around the world in countries like China, but the Duggars are not being persecuted for their faith. It's their big mouth's and bigotry. Many Christians that are not in their cult are calling them out, myself included.

[SassyPants]

Bottom line, reality or not, they misrepresented themselves. We now know some of the truth, enough so, that the premise for their previous show is dead in the water. They have no skills or talents either individually or collectively that would command a TV show based on any other topic.

What needs to happen, is for each adult to find a way to eek out a living.

I would love to see this family in 10 years time. I would love to hear their plans for supporting mega families with limited education(s), no debt and the poor work ethic that we've all seen.

[halcionne]

Really though, their reality even on reality tv is not 'reality''. I've been reading some different pieces about people who have actually filmed or were to film on 19K & C, I am thinking about the wedding of either Jessa or Jill, my rememberence is it is Jill, but don't quote me on that.

So, one of the groomsman, standing up for the wedding since it was being taped wrote a post/article about the experience. He was saying that TLC had everyone in the wedding sign agreements that they would do things a certain way and this guy didn't want to sign it. And he went back and forth with TLC about him being in the episode. I believe that in the end he relented because it was like a few days before the wedding and they would have had to kick him out of the wedding party if he did not sign, because TLC refused to blur the face of the guy or something saying that would make for bad tv.

He was suppose to follow a certain script of how things were to go when filming the wedding and he protested. So, in the end, I think the guy just signed because he didn't want to cause the family distress right before the wedding when everything was set or something.

I read another article or something about how after Jill got her mid-wifery training that one of Anna's sister's (if memory serves correctly) was pregnant out of wedlock and wanted Jill to help deliver her baby, but that J'chelle refused to let Jill deliver the baby, because the girl was not married or something.

So, all is not what it seems on 'reality tv'. It seems there is a lot of 'directing' that goes on from the Directors of the show and that the Director's do recommended the way that reality should play out during taping.

So, the reality they live is not really reality at all. After being accepted for their 'real' lives. :liar: I think that they have created persona's that they want to keep up.

I think the entire idea and having and taping that show has been an exercise in brainwashing and having a 'created' persona of each of the older kids, that is not really them and is probably like the way they are always smiling. It's just not real emotion, or real anything. I think their entire lives have been an exercise in 'presenting' what one thinks they should be.

I'll see if I can find the articles, I think I bookmarked them.

That was Josh's wedding, way back in 2008, and it was Anna's brother-in-law, Josh McDonald, who got hassled by TLC. Here's a statement he made about it (Palimpsest reposts this from time to time and says its from TWOP and is preserved on DWOP, but I haven't looked it up recently, although I believe I did see it on DWOP as well):

Where to start? This is a post I have waited to write for a long time and I can finally do so now that the wedding episode has aired. Before now, I was not permitted to speak of such things..

There have been many comments about the integrity of the Keller family and I would like to reveal some information that may set the record straight. You may ask how I can validate the information I will give: I am the guy that married the second Keller girl and was in the Duggar/Keller wedding as a groomsman. I have been following this thread since August of last year, and have enjoyed a lot of the snark. However, there are some items that were offensive, because even if I don't agree with my in-laws on a lot of (most) things, they are still my wife's family. That, and TLC did what media usually does: they twisted things to make them say what they wanted said. The supposed focus on sex (at least on the Kellers side) is NOTHING compared to what TLC has made it out to be. They want everyone to think this is what conservative fundies are focused on, but at least with the Keller family, this is the farthest thing from the truth. TLC has done a good job of using their show as a tool to change some things into UNreality.

I can't speak much regarding the Duggars as I don't know them at all outside of the wedding experience (read *insanity*). However, the Kellers are a very sweet family that really don't deserve the level of snark thrown at them. Dad Keller (which is what the older son-in-law and I call him) is not the child molester everyone is making him out to be. He has struggled severely with a chronic health condition over the past 10 years and it's a miracle that he can still walk. He has a heart of gold that is intent on ministering to young people in detention centers throughout Florida and he has served faithfully for many years in this area. Several of his older children have worked in the dentention centers with him, including Anna and my wife. I have been with him to these centers on several occassions. It is a difficult job, but one that he has willingly taken on. At this time, Florida will not allow a non-resident into the detention centers anymore and I therefore am not allowed to accompany him when we visit as my wife and I live in Texas.

As far as their beliefs are concerned: there are many areas where I disagree with my in-laws (and my own parents for that matter). I was raised in the same ATI/Bill Gothard/homeschool sect as the Duggars and Kellers, and as I grew older, I found the lack of truth in the teachings of this person and organizaton and developed my own convictions and standards. My wife and I are both beyond many of the things we were raised in and have left the quiverful movement and it's associated mentality behind.

That's not to say that we do not claim conservative Christianity. We both do. However, the fundamental junk that has permeated into a legalistic mindset of supposed relevant standards and lifestyles are all sickening to me. The sad thing about it is that a lot of people raised in this lifestyle never even stop to think for themselves and consider what the Bible really teaches. I did, and that's why I fall on the other side of the line from the rest of my family. Snark at me for being a conservative Christian, but don't snark at me for not thinking for myself.

The producers of the show did a fairly lousy job of revealing the reality of who the Kellers are. The interview where Dad Keller is talking about the wine/grape juice thing was about 45 minutes long. They only put two clips in it to make the dramatic statements that everyone wants to see. How do I know? I was sitting the sanctuary the whole time waiting for the wedding pictures to start. We were supposed to be ready at 5:00 the evening of the wedding. I was ready, but no one else was. I sat in the sanctuary, just off camera, yet still able to see my father-in-law. No, I don't agree with everything he said, but that's beside the point.

Why weren't we interviewed on the show? I despise the whole TLC thing. The producers asked my wife three times if they could interview her, and she refused each time. I told them point-blank that I didn't want to be on the show. Why were we in the wedding to begin with? Because we love Anna.

The assistant producer asked me to sign an optional waiver form so that they could use my name and not blur my face on the show, and he told me it was fully optional. I told him I didn't want to sign it if it was optional and he complied with my wishes. I thought I was off the hook. But then, when pictures were being taken before the wedding, the main producer (good ol' Shawn) confronted me on the platform in front of most of the wedding party (including Josh and Jim Bob) and the other 50 people sitting in the sanctuary. He told me (in a loud voice) that I had to sign the waiver. We got in an argument about it in front of everyone and When I refused because it was optional, he said that if I didn't, he wouldn't permit me to be in the wedding because he wasn't going to destroy his show over one person who didn't want to be on TV.

Jerk.

I signed the waiver to keep the peace in the family. However, this was evidence to me that the Duggars weren't in control of TLC. It is definitely the other way around.

Oh, and Shawn (because I know you read this forum), your assistant producer lied to me about my wife signing the waiver. He used that as a ploy to try to get me to sign it. She was never approached about signing it and you filmed her and used the footage without her authorization, which if I remember correctly, is AGAINST THE LAW.

Yeah, that whole thing ticked me off.

Where was I? Oh yes..

As far as Anna is concerned, she loves Josh and the whole Duggar family. Out of all the girls in the Keller family, she is the one who does sincerely want that many kids. Really. How excited is she about the media attention? I don't know. She was always the one who didn't want to be on camera, but like I said, she really does love Josh and Josh really does love her.

My mother-in-law? She is quiet and always has been. However, she loves her children like no other mother I know (and not in that over-powering protective way). She for one hates the cameras on her. She doesn't like the camera and hates to be put on the spot. But that's just who she is. Yeah, she is kind of stuck in the old fundamental, extremely conservative appearance, but she likes it. So, just let her be.

Their trailer and property? Dad Keller drives roughly 15-20 hours a week to multiple detention centers and prisons throughout Florida. Their home allows him to access these multiple locations from a central spot. Yet again, TLC did a lousy job of depicting the Kellers. They live on multiple acres and have a tennis court, swimming pool, and soccer field BEHIND the trailer, which was never shown on the shows. They have invested their lives in the ministry they are involved in, spending tens of thousands of dollars of their own money to print books and literature for those they minister to. They regularly have guests over, their children are socially capable, and adequately rounded young people. Sheltered, yes; stupid, no. They are fun and engaging. I Wouldn't have married my wife if this weren't so.

Their church? They attend a church in their area (not Buford Grove Baptist Church), and do not have a "church of the holy basement."

Just for the record: the whole Jim Bob/Josh sex talk on the day of the wedding was staged. Shawn and the camera crew told Jim Bob to get Josh and "have the talk." They said they "needed" to get it for the show. Yet more evidence of how the producer(s) are skewing this to focus it more on sex. They filmed non-stop from Thursday night (wedding rehearsal) until Friday night at the hotel. It was literally non-stop with two different crews all over the grounds of the church. They could have made it more realistic, but they chose to use the staged questions and elements that they wanted to make the show say what they wanted. But, I digress...

What about me and my wife? We are happily married and have two children. I have a solid career in technology working for a company rated as the 5th best to work for in the state of Texas. Yes, I am heavily involved in my church (an actual building not located on my property). I don't know if I will homeschool my children yet or not. No, we aren't going to have 20 kids. Yes, we will probably have one or two more. No, my wife is not pregnant. No, we don't want our own reality TV show.

Oh...and the wedding dress was MY WIFE's. My wife graciously loaned the dress to Anna. Yes, I was ticked about the train getting ripped off... And all the suits that the boys and men wore? They were purchased at a discounted rate by Dad Keller from a guy who makes suits for preachers.

I'm sure there will be some who doubt the validity of this posting. You can believe me if you want or forget it if you don't. I think I have included enough detail to convince anyone that what I am saying and who I am is true. I don't intend to follow this thread and reply to every question that comes up. That's why this post is so incredibly long. Chances are, I won't reply again. I just wanted to set the record straight in regard to the Kellers as TLC did a horrible job representing them.

Shawn: I waited until after the wedding episode to post this stuff. You're welcome. Oh, and the waiter was classic. I will give you that much.

The show has been staged since the very beginning.

[justbecause]

... and, he has yet to say just exactly what his 'new job' is! First, they said they were going to Nepal to be missionaries. Now they just filed a new non-profit company, Dillard Family Ministries, on 6/17/2015. Jill and Derick are listed as directors. Neither one has a Bible college degree or is an ordained minister. Starting your own company isn't the same as 'getting a job.'

Starting their own company seems to be how they keep up the 'idea' that they are still successful when they do not have a job. If nothing else they start working for their own companies. CEO's and stuff. Good for resume purposes if they ever need to find a job after they've fired themselves.

[Nic]

No idea. However, they have sued RTV families before. TLC sued Jon Gosselin (and the Gosselin Family Inc.) back in 2009 for breach of contract. He filed a countersuit and they eventually settled out of court. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/1 ... 65932.html

It could be that Jim Bob is posturing about suing if TLC cancels the show - and TLC is threatening to file a countersuit against the Duggars in return. TLC also invoked a morals clause in the Gosselin suit, IIRC. It would be rather ironic if the Duggars went down on a morals clause. :popcorn:

That was different because if I remember correctly Kate wanted to continue show with her and kids, but Jon wouldn't sign off on that. TLC was on Kate's side and trying to make that happen.

I don't see any benefits for TLC to sue the Duggars.

[SassyPants]

Starting their own company seems to be how they keep up the 'idea' that they are still successful when they do not have a job. If nothing else they start working for their own companies. CEO's and stuff. Good for resume purposes if they ever need to find a job after they've fired themselves.

Jill Dillard, Director. LOL. And her name before his. You cannot make this shite up.

[Nic]

I am interested in the way Jessa and Ben get their favorite television programs. Do they watch them on DVD? Do they have cable? Do they watch them on MeTV, which I believe does not require cable? I find it hard to believe that, if they have a TV, those are the only shows they watch.

On a side note, I never could get into Hogan's Heroes. The whole idea of funny Nazi's (I know they made them look foolish) was a turn-off for me. Interestingly, I recently read an interview with the VP of Programming for MeTV (we are from the same town and went to the same high school) and he was asked about any show that he airs that he does not really like....his response was Hogan's Heroes.

Why don't they watch The Brady Bunch? Both people are widowers. Is it because Marcia and Jan wear clothes that defraud themselves?

Or what about Family Affair? Is it because Brian Keith seemed drunk and annoyed in every scene?

Or the Walton's?? Is it because John was paganish?

Good Times or Cosby's? I can guess the answer on those...

I wonder what Ben was watching before Jessa came along... wasn't he HP or LOTR guy?

[lostfemme]

I don't believe for a second that Jessa and Ben are only watching old timey TV. That's pure propaganda for the Christian audience.

If Jill and Derick set up their LLC to create their own brand for TV and the lecture circuit, they are delusional. Between them, they have all the charisma of piece of toast. It took 21 Duggars + Amy to make a half decent show of any interest. Jill, Derick and Jill's uterus aren't going to cut it.

They are probably hoping a Christian channel will pick up a show with Jill+Jessa. Little do they know that the Christian channels are in decline and aren't going to send them all over the world or fill their pantry with goods from advertisers. Still, it would produce a bump in ratings for any jesusy channel. That would be a strong bargaining position.

Jim Bob probably negotiated a contract with TLC that included residuals eons ago. The Duggars have made TLC so much money and TLC has encouraged their fundie exceptionalism so strongly, as well as inhibited the independent life of those kids, that I'm actually on the side of the Duggars against TLC in any contract dispute. TLC basically created the Duggar environment by building them that house. Hopefully, Jim Bob was smart enough to think about overseas residuals and has some way of monitoring the reruns in places like Croatia (where the poster here said the show was still running.) I'm not taking the Duggar's side, ideologically, in any way. But with TLC having such a strong hand in creating the Duggar Monster, and only paying JB 40 grand an episode, I hope TLC has to part with a huge chunk of cash to get rid of them.

Face it, if TLC were never in the picture, most of the boys would be out on their own now, working somewhere or even learning a trade of some sort. Maybe even a girl or two would have left and trying all sorts of things in the real world. There was no way JB could have build them any real home or supported all those kids. TLC kept them under glass. TLC owes those kids, at the very least.

Of course, the Duggars could have fought to join a union as entertainers and enjoyed years of income and insurance protections, but their jesus doesn't allow that. Nope, no collective action unless one can condemn others in the name of the lord.

Stupid question - were JB or Michelle ever given producer or consultant credit on their shows or specials?

[SassyPants]

I don't believe for a second that Jessa and Ben are only watching old timey TV. That's pure propaganda for the Christian audience.

If Jill and Derick set up their LLC to create their own brand for TV and the lecture circuit, they are delusional. Between them, they have all the charisma of piece of toast. It took 21 Duggars + Amy to make a half decent show of any interest. Jill, Derick and Jill's uterus aren't going to cut it.

They are probably hoping a Christian channel will pick up a show with Jill+Jessa. Little do they know that the Christian channels are in decline and aren't going to send them all over the world or fill their pantry with goods from advertisers. Still, it would produce a bump in ratings for any jesusy channel. That would be a strong bargaining position.

Jim Bob probably negotiated a contract with TLC that included residuals eons ago. The Duggars have made TLC so much money and TLC has encouraged their fundie exceptionalism so strongly, as well as inhibited the independent life of those kids, that I'm actually on the side of the Duggars against TLC in any contract dispute. TLC basically created the Duggar environment by building them that house. Hopefully, Jim Bob was smart enough to think about overseas residuals and has some way of monitoring the reruns in places like Croatia (where the poster here said the show was still running.) I'm not taking the Duggar's side, ideologically, in any way. But with TLC having such a strong hand in creating the Duggar Monster, and only paying JB 40 grand an episode, I hope TLC has to part with a huge chunk of cash to get rid of them.

Face it, if TLC were never in the picture, most of the boys would be out on their own now, working somewhere or even learning a trade of some sort. Maybe even a girl or two would have left and trying all sorts of things in the real world. There was no way JB could have build them any real home or supported all those kids. TLC kept them under glass. TLC owes those kids, at the very least.

Of course, the Duggars could have fought to join a union as entertainers and enjoyed years of income and insurance protections, but their jesus doesn't allow that. Nope, no collective action unless one can condemn others in the name of the lord.

Stupid question - were JB or Michelle ever given producer or consultant credit on their shows or specials?

TLC does not owe the kids anything. JB and M owe the kids EVERYTHING.

[Palimpsest]

That was Josh's wedding, way back in 2008, and it was Anna's brother-in-law, Josh McDonald, who got hassled by TLC. Here's a statement he made about it (Palimpsest reposts this from time to time and says its from TWOP and is preserved on DWOP, but I haven't looked it up recently, although I believe I did see it on DWOP as well):

Yes, I got my copy when Josh McD originally posted that on TWOP and it made sense in the context of the criticism of Pa Keller on TWOP. He either also sent it to DWOP or (much more likely, IMO) Sharla swiped it from TWOP without credit. Here's the link to DWOP: Duggarswithoutpity.blogspot.com/2009/01/insights-from-insider.html

This refers to Susanna Keller who did indeed have a baby in January 2013 and was not married. Suze has posted here on FJ in the past. She got a lot of support from Josh McD and her sister Rebekah throughout the pregnancy and lived with them for a time. They all live in Texas, last time I looked.

All that stuff about Michelle not allowing Jill to deliver the baby because Suze wasn't married is probably nonsense. It is 99% certain that this is just tabloids publishing bullshit rumor and speculation well after the fact.

Of course, "Reality" TV is nothing of the kind. :lol: It is produced, scripted, directed, manipulated, and edited for maximum drama. BTW, there is a snowball's chance in hell that the Duggars get residuals. Reality TV contracts are notorious for just paying a flat fee to talent victims. Most contracts are kept highly confidential with huge penalties for disclosing information, but those details that have been leaked are horrific. People must be out of their minds to sign those contracts.

[Nic]

Really though, their reality even on reality tv is not 'reality''. I've been reading some different pieces about people who have actually filmed or were to film on 19K & C, I am thinking about the wedding of either Jessa or Jill, my rememberence is it is Jill, but don't quote me on that.

So, one of the groomsman, standing up for the wedding since it was being taped wrote a post/article about the experience. He was saying that TLC had everyone in the wedding sign agreements that they would do things a certain way and this guy didn't want to sign it. And he went back and forth with TLC about him being in the episode. I believe that in the end he relented because it was like a few days before the wedding and they would have had to kick him out of the wedding party if he did not sign, because TLC refused to blur the face of the guy or something saying that would make for bad tv.

He was suppose to follow a certain script of how things were to go when filming the wedding and he protested. So, in the end, I think the guy just signed because he didn't want to cause the family distress right before the wedding when everything was set or something.

I read another article or something about how after Jill got her mid-wifery training that one of Anna's sister's (if memory serves correctly) was pregnant out of wedlock and wanted Jill to help deliver her baby, but that J'chelle refused to let Jill deliver the baby, because the girl was not married or something.

So, all is not what it seems on 'reality tv'. It seems there is a lot of 'directing' that goes on from the Directors of the show and that the Director's do recommended the way that reality should play out during taping.

So, the reality they live is not really reality at all. After being accepted for their 'real' lives. :liar: I think that they have created persona's that they want to keep up.

I think the entire idea and having and taping that show has been an exercise in brainwashing and having a 'created' persona of each of the older kids, that is not really them and is probably like the way they are always smiling. It's just not real emotion, or real anything. I think their entire lives have been an exercise in 'presenting' what one thinks they should be.

I'll see if I can find the articles, I think I bookmarked them.

We know that it's scripted because there is a narrative that can be followed throughout an episode. My favorite thing reality shows do is when person X says to person Y, "Hey can I talk to you about something..." and then they sit down and have a convo where it re-introduces the topic. Like how many times do you say that to someone you are living with? People have a shorthand with one another that doesn't work well on TV.

How about the whole scene when Jill announces she wants to go to Nepal? When has Jill, "Babies are awesome" Dillard, ever been so articulate?

What about that the people that need to be in a scene are usually already there (unless it's part of the plot where is so and so)

Or watch a scene between a couple of people and see how much expository or background info they will work into a convo... is that how you talk with your friends? Teen Mom franchise is notorious for doing that.

The scenes also have to be scripted and prepared because of public spaces-- you can't just start filming without permits. You can just start filming in Wal-Mart without their permission and agreement of what will be shown. What about lighting and sound? All has to be set up ahead of time. A surprise may happen now and again... Josie's seizure or the pumpkin crane falling on a Roloft... but everything else scripted.

Scenes have to be repeated for different angles, lighting and sound mistakes, options are filmed etc..

Everything needs to be scripted* and planned out because the director knows what scenes s/he want and how to keep a narrative for clarity. If this isn't done, it's harder to cobble something together in editing. It costs more money without a plan. They have X amount of days to get X amount of stories in. They also need to know that they will get X amount of episodes done. When they are selling commercial time/ making network presentations, they will say we have X, Y, Z planned for the Duggars this year.

What about life that happens that was interesting but no camera crew? Is it a oh sugar snap if only we were filming last month. No, it's let's reenact it-- still truthish.

*Scripting: they don't have lines to memorize, but the actors will be told in this scene this is what we want to have happen... or in this scene ask so and so about X...or say THIS to get the ball rolling. And then they work on the response because again they need to have a compelling response. Notice how directed and purposeful convos are. The crew doesn't have time or budget to just stay on a couple people in hopes they will get enough interesting material.

Jill's scene where she asks to go to Nepal is a great example so will use again... she just happens to find her parents sitting on the edge of their bed. What were they doing? Then she announces to them that she may have fallen in love with someone thousands of miles away... SO DRAMATIC. And they look SO SHOCKED. Weren't they all having talks with Derick? After the Skype they never talked to Jillymuffin about how she felt? It had to come up sometime with Derick that he would be available for a visit... On the crew side, TLC had discretionary money in their budget for JB & Jill and crew to up and go to Nepal? It had to be budgeted etc.

How about Joshanna's first road trip with the kids. The narrative is they are doing it on their own. However, Instagram tells a different tale-- Jana is with them. 3 kids : 3 adults not as interesting of a scenario as young couple outnumbered on a road trip.

Reality TV has only a smidgen of reality.

[Palimpsest]

That was different because if I remember correctly Kate wanted to continue show with her and kids, but Jon wouldn't sign off on that. TLC was on Kate's side and trying to make that happen.

I don't see any benefits for TLC to sue the Duggars.

We agree. I can't see TLC suing the Duggars. That was just an example of TLC not being averse to lawsuits if challenged. TLC will only chuck the legal book at Jim Bob, file a countersuit and invoke a morality clause (if there is one) if Jim Bob tries to sue them to keep the show on the air. He will not have any luck in that. TLC is not obliged to show the footage for the next season that is already in the can and can probably drop the contract at will.

If TLC does decide to drop 19kaC, and I wish they would as of yesterday, at most TLC will pay the family out for the time left on the contract, if any. If they do that they will probably retain control over other TV related things the Duggars are allowed to do for the duration of the contract.

Jim Bob would be a fool to try to sue TLC. Oh, wait ...

[Nic]

My guess is Famy's show is DOA if the Duggars are done. She wouldn't be able to mention them in the show because AWKWARD. Both of her episodes had her visiting the Duggars quickly... wouldn't be able to have that.

Now she is someone that should be pissed at JB.

[Becket70]

So Jessa wears a rather short skirt for her interview on FOX but reverts to her long skirt "costume" for the festival. Two different audiences, of course. A budding manipulator who learned at the knee of the master manipulator, Jim Bob. The conservative Christian audience must be so gullible. They buy Miracle Spring Water from an old TV preacher who dyes his hair jet black, still give money to Jim Bakker and support the Duggars without question. It's stunning.

Speaking of hair: Jim Bob...real or fake?

[justbecause]

My guess is Famy's show is DOA if the Duggars are done. She wouldn't be able to mention them in the show because AWKWARD. Both of her episodes had her visiting the Duggars quickly... wouldn't be able to have that.

Now she is someone that should be pissed at JB.

What show? What am I not understanding.

[lostfemme]

TLC does not owe the kids anything. JB and M owe the kids EVERYTHING.

I really do not agree. TLC helped create the environment where children are not educated, kept in home and largely neglected. Without TLC, the kids would have had more options for education and employment because they couldn't have stayed in the 3 bedroom borrowed home or sleep in tents under the roof structure of TTH. The older children would have been forced to explore more options, if only because Jim Bob would have put them to work early. They would have ended up more like the Bates, probably, who needed their children to gain some independence or the whole family suffers.

People like the Duggars complain that socialism kills ambition. Well, so does TLC. Without the structures of child labor laws, that reality TV so nefariously ignores, then yes, TLC owes all of the children of it's reality shows. TLC pays for a constant and consistent product. Keeping the Duggars Duggars was entirely their aim, which was NOT good for those kids.

It would be interesting to see a class action suit brought by all the children of TLC's reality programming. Those Gosselin kids in particular could join up, especially now that Pennsylvania has signed new child labor laws in reaction to their old show. The kids have no choice, mom and dad are greedy/lazy, and TLC is reaping huge rewards from an abusive system TLC basically invented.

[SassyPants]

I really do not agree. TLC helped create the environment where children are not educated, kept in home and largely neglected. Without TLC, the kids would have had more options for education and employment because they couldn't have stayed in the 3 bedroom borrowed home or sleep in tents under the roof structure of TTH. The older children would have been forced to explore more options, if only because Jim Bob would have put them to work early. They would have ended up more like the Bates, probably, who needed their children to gain some independence or the whole family suffers.

People like the Duggars complain that socialism kills ambition. Well, so does TLC. Without the structures of child labor laws, that reality TV so nefariously ignores, then yes, TLC owes all of the children of it's reality shows. TLC pays for a constant and consistent product. Keeping the Duggars Duggars was entirely their aim, which was NOT good for those kids.

It would be interesting to see a class action suit brought by all the children of TLC's reality programming. Those Gosselin kids in particular could join up, especially now that Pennsylvania has signed new child labor laws in reaction to their old show. The kids have no choice, mom and dad are greedy/lazy, and TLC is reaping huge rewards from an abusive system TLC basically invented.

IMO, no minor should be allowed on reality TV, at all.

I cannot blame TLC. They are not breaking any labor laws. IMO, the onus is on the parents. Everything circles back to them. Without JB and M.'s approval, their children would not be on reality TV.

[Evenkeel]

I can think of any number of reasons why TLC would sue the Duggars for breach of contract. There was a written agreeement about the amount of money paid to them and how it was to be distrubuted, JB didn't follow it, and the girls went to TLC to make it right. JB lied about the molestation(either outright denied it or minimized it) and there was a clause in the contract regarding lying about anything that might damage TLC/Discovery Communication's image. It could be an exclusivity clause between them and People or TLC and doing the interviews with Faux News broke it. Maybe TLC got upset about the bad light that the interviews put them in or not using their own PR reps per the contract, or they didn't consult TLC at all before doing the interviews and that constituted breach.

What would TLC have to gain from suing them? Recouping some of the last seven years' worth of money from salaries and trips and whatever money they put toward their house(s). Saving face. Making an example of them after the issues they've had with reality shows and sacandal. Appeasing investors and/or the sister networks. Does anyone really think that Oprah is okay with being associated with this family through the parent network and is okay with just letting Discovery/TLC do what it wants to do?

[justbecause]

I can think of any number of reasons why TLC would sue the Duggars for breach of contract. There was a written agreeement about the amount of money paid to them and how it was to be distrubuted, JB didn't follow it, and the girls went to TLC to make it right. JB lied about the molestation(either outright denied it or minimized it) and there was a clause in the contract regarding lying about anything that might damage TLC/Discovery Communication's image. It could be an exclusivity clause between them and People or TLC and doing the interviews with Faux News broke it. Maybe TLC got upset about the bad light that the interviews put them in or not using their own PR reps per the contract, or they didn't consult TLC at all before doing the interviews and that constituted breach.

What would TLC have to gain from suing them? Recouping some of the last seven years' worth of money from salaries and trips and whatever money they put toward their house(s). Saving face. Making an example of them after the issues they've had with reality shows and sacandal. Appeasing investors and/or the sister networks. Does anyone really think that Oprah is okay with being associated with this family through the parent network and is okay with just letting Discovery/TLC do what it wants to do?

I agree with you in the sense that I think TLC/Discovery Communications has been trying to get out. Maybe when it all the information about Josh first came to light they thought they could save the show, but I think after the Fox interview they knew it wasn't happening, especially when the advertiser's started to bail. I think that they would have canceled the show if they could have, but for some reason they couldn't. I think now with the open DHS investigation that they really, really want out, because they do have more to loose than one channel and with advertisers usually lots of time are purchased over multiple shows/stations so I think with this advertiser thing it must have trickled down to their other network/holdings, one of which is Oprah's OWN Network.

I think that they know this family has some really hard ties to cults, between Gothard and the Pearls and Huckabee things could really get ugly real quick and the Duggars have pissed off a population LGBT that is very hot right now because of the marriage legislation that is being looked at. I think the risk far, far out weigh's any reward and I would be shocked if they were not trying to get out.

[Nic]

I can think of any number of reasons why TLC would sue the Duggars for breach of contract. There was a written agreeement about the amount of money paid to them and how it was to be distrubuted, JB didn't follow it, and the girls went to TLC to make it right. JB lied about the molestation(either outright denied it or minimized it) and there was a clause in the contract regarding lying about anything that might damage TLC/Discovery Communication's image. It could be an exclusivity clause between them and People or TLC and doing the interviews with Faux News broke it. Maybe TLC got upset about the bad light that the interviews put them in or not using their own PR reps per the contract, or they didn't consult TLC at all before doing the interviews and that constituted breach.

What would TLC have to gain from suing them? Recouping some of the last seven years' worth of money from salaries and trips and whatever money they put toward their house(s). Saving face. Making an example of them after the issues they've had with reality shows and sacandal. Appeasing investors and/or the sister networks. Does anyone really think that Oprah is okay with being associated with this family through the parent network and is okay with just letting Discovery/TLC do what it wants to do?

Recoup money spent on the last 7 years? This show has made them money. That money has already been recouped and then A LOT SOME.

How much effort and lawyers fees would have to be spent to get how much from the Duggars? How do you think it would look for them to go after the family? Big ol' heartless soulless corporation going after a god fearing family like the Duggars? Plus evidently it's still being aired in other countries (I believe someone in E Euro said it's on there)

Appeasing investors? I would want to know how much a lawsuit was going to cost vs how much I would get. Isn't that money spent on a lawsuit better spent on developing other programming that can actually long haul make money?

Saving face? If TLC truly wants this to go away, just disappearing the Duggars will make that happen. Lawsuits last for years... and years. And it would be a constant reminder to everyone.

They haven't cancelled yet, because they don't need to. The show isn't in production, they've aired the season finale. Time is on TLCs side. See what else plays in the Duggar time slot... maybe eventually do a special some time down the road.

So wait the girls would have TLC spend the money to make sure the girls get paid from JB? TLC would tell the girls to take it up with their daddy. The girls could then sue TLC and JB, but TLC is not going to take on the cost of a lawsuit on behalf of the girls.

Oprah doesn't give a shit at this point. She turned them in and moved on.

[singsingsing]

So Jessa wears a rather short skirt for her interview on FOX but reverts to her long skirt "costume" for the festival. Two different audiences, of course. A budding manipulator who learned at the knee of the master manipulator, Jim Bob. The conservative Christian audience must be so gullible. They buy Miracle Spring Water from an old TV preacher who dyes his hair jet black, still give money to Jim Bakker and support the Duggars without question. It's stunning.

Speaking of hair: Jim Bob...real or fake?

I think you're reading way too much into Jessa's choice of clothing. If she wore a short skirt and a sleeveless blouse on Fox and then wore an FLDS prairie dress to this festival, I'd agree with you, but skirts of all different lengths are in style right now, and she's worn skirts of varying lengths all over the place for years.

[Evenkeel]

Recoup money spent on the last 7 years? This show has made them money. That money has already been recouped and then A LOT SOME.

How much effort and lawyers fees would have to be spent to get how much from the Duggars? How do you think it would look for them to go after the family? Big ol' heartless soulless corporation going after a god fearing family like the Duggars? Plus evidently it's still being aired in other countries (I believe someone in E Euro said it's on there)

Appeasing investors? I would want to know how much a lawsuit was going to cost vs how much I would get. Isn't that money spent on a lawsuit better spent on developing other programming that can actually long haul make money?

Saving face? If TLC truly wants this to go away, just disappearing the Duggars will make that happen. Lawsuits last for years... and years. And it would be a constant reminder to everyone.

They haven't cancelled yet, because they don't need to. The show isn't in production, they've aired the season finale. Time is on TLCs side. See what else plays in the Duggar time slot... maybe eventually do a special some time down the road.

So wait the girls would have TLC spend the money to make sure the girls get paid from JB? TLC would tell the girls to take it up with their daddy. The girls could then sue TLC and JB, but TLC is not going to take on the cost of a lawsuit on behalf of the girls.

Oprah doesn't give a shit at this point. She turned them in and moved on.

They could certainly file a lawsuit to appease investors (and advertisers) if they were fairly certain it would settle out of court and not be out very much money or use it as a tactic to get the Duggars to just go away with whatever TLC wants to offer. As long as the specter of a possible show or spin-off is out there then people of all ilks are going to be leery of them. Sometimes it's the principle of the thing, too, especially if the Duggars' actions not only constitute breach of contract but fraud as well. When talking about reality television we're talking about a genre of television still in its infancy and with no legal constructs to prop it up but plenty of legal questions to tear it down. Considering how high-profile this case is, it might also be worth it to TLC to be a trailblazer in the area of protecting their interests.

I do notice that you didn't address the breach of an exclusivity contract for the interviews or consulting TLC before doing the interviews, or using the PR reps that TLC employ. It could also be People suing them, not TLC, as mentioned. Do you think those are plausible reasons for them to sue, even if unlikely? The other part of it is that the Duggars could feel it worth it to have someone retained in case of lawsuit to be ahead of the game. A lawyer is not going to advise anyone on a situation as complicated as this one without a retainer or payment of some type.

The other other thought is that maybe the Duggars have just had enough and want to withdraw from the public eye completely. If they have a contract in force maybe they want to know what they're in for if they try to bow out. I wonder how much conversation has been going on between the Duggars and TLC regarding the future of the show and what the thoughts are of both sides on both wanting to keep it going (either ss is or as a spin-off) or the feasibility of doing so.