Duggars By the Dozen - General Discussion - Part 12

[justoneoftwo]

I think the story broke around May 21st

Thanks, that does increase the chance that the state is behaving badly in my mind, and we will likely never really know.

[DuggarWatch]

I think the story broke around May 21st

May 19. And, this was also the day the police records were released to In Touch.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/19-k ... robe-58751

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im glad that there will be a new investigation into the family and what went on. I hope the kids will be safe. Hopefully it will include Josh's kids too, as they need to assess Josh's risk to them.

Unfortunately this will not have an effect on the victims though, except for Joy, but I hope they are spoken to and encouraged to get counselling :( I hope Josh is made to get therapy too, even if he has never done it again or has never wanted to, something messed up happened to him in the past and these things don't go away on their own.

[for_the_Kitties]

It sounds like an anonymous tip to DHS about one of the kids. Hell, it could even be some random person who found FJ during the scandal and saw comments about one of the kids being neglected, or those pics of one of the kids with a poison ivy rash (that looked awful). I'm sure the Duggars are just turning everyone away unless they have a lawyer present.

I HOPE this is the case and not something else terrible...

[justoneoftwo]

Im glad that there will be a new investigation into the family and what went on. I hope the kids will be safe. Hopefully it will include Josh's kids too, as they need to assess Josh's risk to them.

Unfortunately this will not have an effect on the victims though, except for Joy, but I hope they are spoken to and encouraged to get counselling :( I hope Josh is made to get therapy too, even if he has never done it again or has never wanted to, something messed up happened to him in the past and these things don't go away on their own.

The problem is, there was a DHS investigation about those allegations, it is closed. We don't know what it said but it was done, no children were removed from the house and in all probability there was mandatory state counseling involved, as well as parenting classes and counseling for Josh (that is what would happen in other states). In order for a new one to occur there should be new cause for an investigation. The police report that DHS already dealt with is not enough. If that was the only cause I wouldn't let them in either, and I would sue. (This assumes that I don't have other things happening that I want to hide).

[Hera]

The problem is, there was a DHS investigation about those allegations, it is closed. We don't know what it said but it was done, no children were removed from the house and in all probability there was mandatory state counseling involved, as well as parenting classes and counseling for Josh (that is what would happen in other states). In order for a new one to occur there should be new cause for an investigation. The police report that DHS already dealt with is not enough. If that was the only cause I wouldn't let them in either, and I would sue. (This assumes that I don't have other things happening that I want to hide).

I think it would have had to be based on a new report or call. Since they wanted to talk to/see one of the kids, it sounds like it was, so it wasn't just re-investigating the past stuff. Whether it the report had any merit or not may be questionable, though, but with all the scrutiny over how the Arkansas DHS handled the reports back in 2006, I'd be surprised if they weren't going to dot their "i's" and cross their "t's" in relation to any reports about the Duggar kids.

[2manyKidzzz]

I agree with the anonymous tip theory. Someone doing that based on the scandal. Unless they were beating kids in the front yard, I can't quite imagine something new coming up at this stage. I know nothing though about it. :mouse-shock:

[justoneoftwo]

Again it will very by state, but getting the police to force entry would generally require 1. a warrant, or 2. imminent danger. I am curious what information they had to get either. Again, we will probably never know, and getting a warrant in the current climate would probably be easier than the law technically allows.

[Cleopatra7]

According to the In Touch article, the full 911 transcript is in the new print issue. I guess that's one way to increase readership; tease us online and make us buy the magazine for all the details.

[justoneoftwo]

According to the In Touch article, the full 911 transcript is in the new print issue. I guess that's one way to increase readership; tease us online and make us buy the magazine for all the details.

Maybe someone will post it when it gets printed.

Also, does DHS usually call 911 for things like this? Isn't that only for emergencies? Am I missing something?

[EmmieJ]

Death By a Thousand Slashes- that is what is currently happening to the Duggar's media careers, easy money and reputations.

So much for JimChelle's insistence that the DHS investigation was "all taken care of" years ago.

[paganhomeschooler]

I was kind of thinking that maybe they wanted to check on Joy's well-being in light of everything, to make sure she was doing okay?

[justoneoftwo]

I was kind of thinking that maybe they wanted to check on Joy's well-being in light of everything, to make sure she was doing okay?

But they can't just demand to be let in just to check because someone might be upset or they think maybe something is wrong. They need more cause than just feeling concerned to enter a home and question a family.

[Palimpsest]

I think it would have had to be based on a new report or call. Since they wanted to talk to/see one of the kids, it sounds like it was, so it wasn't just re-investigating the past stuff. Whether it the report had any merit or not may be questionable, though, but with all the scrutiny over how the Arkansas DHS handled the reports back in 2006, I'd be surprised if they weren't going to dot their "i's" and cross their "t's" in relation to any reports about the Duggar kids.

I haven't seen any scrutiny or criticism of AR DHS's handling of the previous reports or the services they provided. DCFS have quite correctly refused to comment. The scrutiny has been over the police reports and the handling of police records. The DCFS files are sealed.

As the previous case was apparently closed, this would have to be a new report for DHS to check on a Duggar minor child on May 27th, 2015. DCFS can ask for police support in getting access to a family in most states. Some families escalate and demand a warrant and lawyer up rather than complying with a CPS investigation. That is their right. As to whether it is either sensible or necessary, well, opinions vary. See the Nauglers over on QoS.

Arkansas seems to have an overlap in investigations between DHS and the police. "When the Division of Children and Family Services (DCFS) gets a report of suspected child maltreatment, Arkansas law says that DCFS or the Arkansas State Police Family Protection Unit will assess the report." http://humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/ ... vices.aspx

An educated guess* is that allegations of criminal abuse go to the police first and get transferred to DHS for services, and DHS investigations that turn up evidence of criminal levels of abuse are transferred to LE while DHS continues to coordinate and provide services. Not all cases of child abuse reach criminal levels and DHS can still provided supports and intervention for non-criminal child maltreatment. CPS doesn't not always automatically remove children from families they are investigating or providing services for either.

It is rather telling that Jim Bob and Michelle sat there claimed to Megyn Kelly that they cooperated fully back in 2006, when they had apparently refused access to CPS on new allegations a few days earlier. It is lying by omission and being very disingenuous. You would think that they would have taken the opportunity to yell that this was part of the "agenda" and that CPS was persecuting them with a new investigation.

There is a lot of very aggressive anti-CPS and anti-law enforcement talk in these threads, and a hell of a lot of sweeping judgments, unfounded assumptions, and misinformation being spouted here at the moment. :shrug:

*Disclaimer: I never worked for CPS. I worked for APS in another state.

[SassyPants]

The call might have come from within the house.

It would be the perfect time for someone to speak up, if they felt the need.

[MarcyMM]

As others have stated, I just really hope this isn't becoming a witch hunt type thing. That would just give them more reason to shout victim and take away from actual issues.

Would DHS have room to decide not to go if say some "concerned citizen" called after reading all the news stories? Are there questions asked like how do you know the parties, what have you personally witnessed, etc.?

[justoneoftwo]

I haven't seen any scrutiny or criticism of AR DHS's handling of the previous reports or the services they provided. DCFS have quite correctly refused to comment. The scrutiny has been over the police reports and the handling of police records. The DCFS files are sealed.

As the previous case was apparently closed, this would have to be a new report for DHS to check on a Duggar minor child on May 27th, 2015. DCFS can ask for police support in getting access to a family in most states. Some families escalate and demand a warrant and lawyer up rather than complying with a CPS investigation. That is their right. As to whether it is either sensible or necessary, well, opinions vary. See the Nauglers over on QoS.

Arkansas seems to have an overlap in investigations between DHS and the police. "When the Division of Children and Family Services (DCFS) gets a report of suspected child maltreatment, Arkansas law says that DCFS or the Arkansas State Police Family Protection Unit will assess the report." http://humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/ ... vices.aspx

An educated guess* is that allegations of criminal abuse go to the police first and get transferred to DHS for services, and DHS investigations that turn up evidence of criminal levels of abuse are transferred to LE while DHS continues to coordinate and provide services. Not all cases of child abuse reach criminal levels and DHS can still provided supports and intervention for non-criminal child maltreatment. CPS doesn't not always automatically remove children from families they are investigating or providing services for either.

It is rather telling that Jim Bob and Michelle sat there claimed to Megyn Kelly that they cooperated fully back in 2006, when they had apparently refused access to CPS on new allegations a few days earlier. It is lying by omission and being very disingenuous. You would think that they would have taken the opportunity to yell that this was part of the "agenda" and that CPS was persecuting them with a new investigation.

There is a lot of very aggressive anti-CPS and anti-law enforcement talk in these threads, and a hell of a lot of sweeping judgments, unfounded assumptions, and misinformation being spouted here at the moment. :shrug:

*Disclaimer: I never worked for CPS. I worked for APS in another state.

As a disclaimer of my own I have worked with families trying to get their children back after CPS took them in other states. I am not meaning to b aggressively anti-CPS, but I am concerned about the state acting to protect its reputation and interfering with families, even families I believe do harmful things that do not rise to the level of required intervention.

CPS provides very needed checks and services, but often does run over families who don't know or are afraid to fight back. I would hope that all new investigations are properly done. Further there are lots of things CPS can do or ask the family to do voluntarily, but if they are at the point of wanting a police escort into the house, we are probably past that option anyway.

[DuggarWatch]

So much for JimChelle's insistence that the DHS investigation was "all taken care of" years ago.

That's a good point. Chalk up another lie for the Duggars.

:liar:

[gustava]

Seems as if several of the newbies are yoyoing between Save the Children from Josh the Evildoer, and Save the Children from the Evil State of Arkansas.

Yes, both could be valid, and yes, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but honestly, it's giving me a headache.

[Furbabies]

The call might have come from within the house.

It would be the perfect time for someone to speak up, if they felt the need.

This was my thought. I'm also thinking that someone wants out.

[ClaraOswin]

This was my thought. I'm also thinking that someone wants out.

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

[justoneoftwo]

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

Its also possible there was a phone call claiming to be someone wanting out but was actually false, isn't that what happened at the FLDS ranch in Texas? They never could find any records of the girl who made the call?

[HairToday]

Flashback to 2010 when J'Chelle was voted Mom of the Year. Not sure if she'll get that honor this year...

ReligionDispatches.org/biblical-patriarchy-activists-name-michelle-duggar-mother-of-the-year/

"...Michelle Duggar—mother of 19, grandmother of one, and star of the hit reality series on TLC 19 Kids and Counting —was named Mother of the Year by the Christian Reconstructionist group Vision Forum at its “Historic Baby Conference.â€

According to Vision Forum’s statement, the conference “featured encouraging messages on the blessing of children and the culture of life, special lectures and panel discussions for mothers, forums on child-training, and presentations for the whole family that explored the wonder of God’s creation through the intricacies of the womb.â€

The event, the award, and the TLC show are excellent illustrations of how a Reconstructionist worldview has trickled into the broader American culture in ways that are not always obvious.

Vision Forum and its president, Doug Phillips (who is the son of conservative movement icon and Constitution Party founder Howard Phillips) are strong advocates of the biblical patriarchy movement. Since the 1970s there has been an influential biblical feminist movement, advocating equality in evangelicalism and fundamentalism."

These people are downright scary.

[SassyPants]

Flashback to 2010 when J'Chelle was voted Mom of the Year. Not sure if she'll get that honor this year...

ReligionDispatches.org/biblical-patriarchy-activists-name-michelle-duggar-mother-of-the-year/

"...Michelle Duggar—mother of 19, grandmother of one, and star of the hit reality series on TLC 19 Kids and Counting —was named Mother of the Year by the Christian Reconstructionist group Vision Forum at its “Historic Baby Conference.â€

According to Vision Forum’s statement, the conference “featured encouraging messages on the blessing of children and the culture of life, special lectures and panel discussions for mothers, forums on child-training, and presentations for the whole family that explored the wonder of God’s creation through the intricacies of the womb.â€

The event, the award, and the TLC show are excellent illustrations of how a Reconstructionist worldview has trickled into the broader American culture in ways that are not always obvious.

Vision Forum and its president, Doug Phillips (who is the son of conservative movement icon and Constitution Party founder Howard Phillips) are strong advocates of the biblical patriarchy movement. Since the 1970s there has been an influential biblical feminist movement, advocating equality in evangelicalism and fundamentalism."

These people are downright scary.

.Michelle Duggar—mother of 19, grandmother of one, and star of the hit reality series on TLC 19 Kids and Counting —was named Mother of the Year by the Christian Reconstructionist group Vision Forum.

It makes sense, in a perverted way. Doug Phillip's group recognizing M as MOTY- 2 people with big secrets.

[ILoveJellybeans]

.Michelle Duggar—mother of 19, grandmother of one, and star of the hit reality series on TLC 19 Kids and Counting —was named Mother of the Year by the Christian Reconstructionist group Vision Forum.

It makes sense, in a perverted way. Doug Phillip's group recognizing M as MOTY- 2 people with big secrets.

I cant believe both of them have big secrets involving coming into someone's room at night to sexually assault them. What a sick, evil cult. I guess Doug would consider Michelle mother of the year, I bet he wishes everyone responds to nocturnal molestation like that. If they did, he wouldn't be shitting himself and on the run from the law right now. Ugh, Gothard too, he might not like sleeping victims, but he very much approves of underage victims.

Its a sick cult when out of the three main people, there is someone who likes to molest young girls, someone who likes to sneak into bedrooms at night to sexually assault, and someone who molested sleeping little girls.