Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[treemom]

Jews not welcome is offensive and racist and that's clearly wrong. And I don't advocate not letting the homosexual in the door, just the freedom to say no if someone is shoving something into your face that you don't like or approve of. I feel that's pretty close to rape. Some guy wants gratification. he asks for it, if a woman gives it to him, it's fine. If she says no, then that person is violating the other persons preferences, beliefs, whatever to force a non-consensual act on them.

Oh for Jesus sake did you just compare someone saying their intention to have a same sex wedding is pretty close to rape? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?

You defended Lourdes and you actually believe what Doug Phillips did to her is the same as someone saying to you "I want to buy flowers for my same sex wedding?" Or what is more likely something less direct which is same gendered couple comes in and asks to look at flower arrangements for the wedding.

Wow, you disgust me. If you were my son I would be so embarrassed that you don't see the different between rape and someone doing something you don't like.

I can't wait until some others hand you your ass. You really have departed from a more nuanced and open view and clearly just desire to stir shit now.

[church_of_dog]

I actually am comfortable with the copy shop declining to print things. Similar to a minister being allowed to not marry someone they don't approve of.

A flower arrangement is not integral to the message, a minister is. What I think is comparable is refusing to sell you a printer because you want to print Mein Kampf. Actually abetting the printing of it is different.

But I could be wrong in this area, this is where I think it gets a little grey for me. I probably wouldn't go into the printing business because of it.

Ah, I see your distinction and I agree, in terms of my personal ethics. I'm not sure what the law is though -- the whole "open to the public" thing might require nondiscrimination, at least for the protected classes.

[whoviana]

Same sex couple entering a homophobe's store is similar to rape?! How?!!! Did any of them whip out their penis or waved a dildo around and used sexual language while the poor florist was taking their order? Are you out of your mind?

Oh don't worry everyone will know they're not welcome and people who can't tolerate bigotry anymore will take their cash somewhere else.

The only remaining customers will be scumbags like the pissing pastor, but, I don't think his kind buys flowers too often.

[CloakNDagger]

Wow, you guys so misunderstand and hate. I'm saying I don't believe in non-consent, which is where this judicial decision is going. If I have a belief, any belief, I shouldn't force it on another against their will.

I'm not saying I can't live with them, I'm not saying they can't live next door, I'm not saying I won't eat with them, I'm not calling for their execution, I even said I'd sell to them provided they weren't trying to shove it in my face. I'm saying I don't believe that anyone should force another to participate in something that they fundamentally disagree with for whatever reason.

[treemom]

Ah, I see your distinction and I agree, in terms of my personal ethics. I'm not sure what the law is though -- the whole "open to the public" thing might require nondiscrimination, at least for the protected classes.

Yeah, I am not sure I am right. Things like say printing or being forced to host a website seem to be as integral to your beliefs as being a minister could be. Again, it's why I probably wouldn't do something like that because I don't have the stomach for it. We do know legally that billboards or TV ads can be declined by the producer because of the message. So there is some legal rangling.

And I think in most states sexual orientation isn't a protected class. So I try not to make that argument since in the US it isn't protected federally and not in most states.

I think it is really similar to a Baptist who owns a florist shop refusing to provide flowers for a Catholic funeral. (Except of course now that I said that religions is a protected class. Damn.)

[ILoveJellybeans]

Jews not welcome is offensive and racist and that's clearly wrong. And I don't advocate not letting the homosexual in the door, just the freedom to say no if someone is shoving something into your face that you don't like or approve of. I feel that's pretty close to rape. Some guy wants gratification. he asks for it, if a woman gives it to him, it's fine. If she says no, then that person is violating the other persons preferences, beliefs, whatever to force a non-consensual act on them.

How is that even close to being raped?

Exactly how is it hurting you to sell flowers to two men who come in to a flower shop and say "Hi, we are getting married soon, and we would like to buy some flowers".

Its not as if that is shoving it in your face. Its just a fact. They are buying flowers. The flowers are for their wedding. They are two men. That isn't shoving it in your face, any more than a man and woman coming to a florist for wedding flowers is.

Even if they were acting like Michelle and Jimbob Duggar at the golf course, making jokes about their sex lives and dry humping eachother...that still isn't anything like being raped. It is dealing with weirdo customers that is maybe worth a laugh or two if you posted your story on the internet. But not like being raped. And yes, it would be discrimination if you refused to serve a gay couple who were being obviously flirty with eachother and dry humping, but served Michelle and Jimbob for doing the same thing but being a straight white Christian couple.

Rape is a major violation of someone else's body, and a very traumatizing experience. It is offensive to people who have been raped or sexually harassed to compare what they went through to someone having to sell flowers to a wedding they don't approve of. I don't like the majority of fundie couples being married off to eachother, but if I owned a flower shop and Steve Maxwell came in looking for flowers for his son's wedding, I would sell them to him just as I would with any other person because it isn't my job to judge customers on whether they are worthy to buy my product. It is my job to sell things to people.

[ShesCrafty]

Jews not welcome is offensive and racist and that's clearly wrong. And I don't advocate not letting the homosexual in the door, just the freedom to say no if someone is shoving something into your face that you don't like or approve of. I feel that's pretty close to rape. Some guy wants gratification. he asks for it, if a woman gives it to him, it's fine. If she says no, then that person is violating the other persons preferences, beliefs, whatever to force a non-consensual act on them.

I'm (sincerely) happy you have obviously never been raped. Know how I know that? Because if you had, you would NEVER think to make that comparison. I hope one day you grow up a bit and are ashamed of the words you have written in this thread.

[treemom]

Wow, you guys so misunderstand and hate. I'm saying I don't believe in non-consent, which is where this judicial decision is going. If I have a belief, any belief, I shouldn't force it on another against their will.

I'm not saying I can't live with them, I'm not saying they can't live next door, I'm not saying I won't eat with them, I'm not calling for their execution, I even said I'd sell to them provided they weren't trying to shove it in my face. I'm saying I don't believe that anyone should force another to participate in something that they fundamentally disagree with for whatever reason.

So what is the difference (legally not according to your moral book) between denying flowers to a Jew or an African American or an Arab and denying flowers to a gay person? Because my moral book says being gay is like a race. (Interestingly enough my moral book says religion can be chosen, but you still don't discriminate solely on faith)

[whoviana]

Don't you just love it when people whip out words like 9/11, Auschwitz, or rape to justify ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT? :roll: How come these things are always brought into comparison to excuse acts against human rights?

[treemom]

Wow, you guys so misunderstand and hate. I'm saying I don't believe in non-consent, which is where this judicial decision is going. If I have a belief, any belief, I shouldn't force it on another against their will.

I'm not saying I can't live with them, I'm not saying they can't live next door, I'm not saying I won't eat with them, I'm not calling for their execution, I even said I'd sell to them provided they weren't trying to shove it in my face. I'm saying I don't believe that anyone should force another to participate in something that they fundamentally disagree with for whatever reason.

I don't think you and I define shoving it your face the same way. I expect gay people should be able to act the way I do which is display pictures of their partners, refer to their partners the same way I do, talk about what they did this weekend, I consider that normal and acting exactly like we all do.

[whoviana]

I'm not saying I can't live with them, I'm not saying they can't live next door, I'm not saying I won't eat with them, I'm not calling for their execution, I even said I'd sell to them provided they weren't trying to shove it in my face.

This is 50s talk concerning black people. Yes, they have been liberated and shit and now they walk among us without shackles and chains, and I must swallow it since I have no other option, but I don't want them around me, you can't make me make a good face to it. Ah, good old days. I almost feel like having a black eye for burning the steak. :roll:

[FeministShrew]

As a survivor of rape & the mother of a gay son, all I can say is DAMN. :pull-hair:

[formergothardite]

Because I think it's a stupid way to refer to them. It's a deliberate takeover of a word meaning happy and the "gay" people I know are definitively not that so much. In fact they are often on a warpath against people who sell flowers and disagree with them, or something.

There are a couple of gay people I know that just mind their own business and don't act like they are different or special, etc... And they are just fine to get along with. We respect each other and they don't try to force me to agree with them, OR visa versa.

OMG! You are right they are on a WAR PATH against people who sell flowers and disagree with them. Do you know who else was on that war path an won the war? The blacks. Those blacks PERSECUTED the poor white Christians who felt like mingling with blacks was against their religion. There were some good blacks who stayed in their place and didn't try to force the white Christians to serve them. Why couldn't all black people be like them? If it is against a white person's religious beliefs to serve black people and eat and drink in the same area as black people, why can't the blacks just respect that and let them ban black people from the stores? It is a shame that so many whites had their rights trampled on and now they can't ban blacks from their store. Don't you agree CnD?

~I'm assuming everyone is going to realize that I don't really feel this way and am just making a point. ~

[formergothardite]

And people who discriminate is everyone... You obviously would discriminate against what I believe is my religious necessity to choose to avoid that which I think is aiding active sin against my Creator.

So you do believe that it Is wrong that white people whose religious beliefs say they cannot serve, shop or eat in the same area as black people are forced to serve them? You are saying that discrimination and segregation should be legal again because not allowing it is forcing some white people to aid in an active sin that they feel is against their Creator?

[formergothardite]

Jews not welcome is offensive and racist and that's clearly wrong. And I don't advocate not letting the homosexual in the door, just the freedom to say no if someone is shoving something into your face that you don't like or approve of. I feel that's pretty close to rape. Some guy wants gratification. he asks for it, if a woman gives it to him, it's fine. If she says no, then that person is violating the other persons preferences, beliefs, whatever to force a non-consensual act on them.

:o :pink-shock: Your true self is being revealed and it is ugly. If this is what your God does to people then I will be happy in hell. Even in my most fundie days I would never try to claim that fixing flowers for someone you didn't agree with is close to being raped.

ETA: If the worst thing that ever happens to a person is that they have to fix flowers or a cake for someone they don't agree with, well their life is extremely easy. You are a complete hate-filled fool if you can't see that and still think that being raped is not that much different than having to fix flowers for someone whose beliefs don't match yours.

[whoviana]

I don't know what happens after death since I'm an agnostic, but if I had to spend eternity with gay-hating idiots, I'd call that hell. I hope they'll have a jolly good time in heaven, holding each other's hands and agreeing on how bad homosexuality is, and kiss Mel Gibson's ass the whole day, I just don't want to spend the afterlife around them.

[formergothardite]

I have heard a lot of hateful anti-gay bullshit, but this is the first time I have seen anyone try to say that fixing flowers is close to being raped. It really is no wonder that gay people who are around CnD don't seem happy. He thinks them having the right to be treated like everyone else is the same as rape.

[whoviana]

Being requested to fix flowers is like a successful sexual assault. Removing zygotes and 2-6 week old embryos is like Auschwitz or the Holocaust. I need a drink.

[Idolatry]

So I'm confused. Are gay weddings like Hitler or rape? I can't keep up.

[treemom]

You have to say something absolutely batshit crazy to get most of us to agree. congratulations CND for the remarkable.

[CloakNDagger]

Ok, so my analogies were over the top a bit. Still don't think that forcing a person who thinks differently to do something they don't want to do, and then bringing a lawsuit down on them that financially ruins them is any sort of win. It will only entrench them in their beliefs. I think that's a fail on the part of the plaintiffs. Best to take the high road and take your business elsewhere.

[formergothardite]

Ok, so my analogies were over the top a bit. Still don't think that forcing a person who thinks differently to do something they don't want to do, and then bringing a lawsuit down on them that financially ruins them is any sort of win. It will only entrench them in their beliefs. I think that's a fail on the part of the plaintiffs. Best to take the high road and take your business elsewhere.

So just so we are clear, you do think that the black people who did things like sitting in stores where the owners felt it was wrong to serve black people were wrong? You think that the black people should have just taken the high road and not forced the issue of equality and ending discrimination?

Over the top is an understatement and you don't even seem to grasp the horror of what you said. Your true self is still showing and it is still very ugly. That you could for one moment think that typing that is okay is just mind boggling. This is what your God turns people into?

[KittenMitten]

CnD. You are digging yourself deeper. I would stop if I were you.

[KittenMitten]

So just so we are clear, you do think that the black people who did things like sitting in stores where the owners felt it was wrong to serve black people were wrong? You think that the black people should have just taken the high road and not forced the issue of equality and ending discrimination?

Over the top is an understatement and you don't even seem to grasp the horror of what you said. Your true self is still showing and it is still very ugly. That you could for one moment think that typing that is okay is just mind boggling. This is what your God turns people into?

I'd also add what would have happened if Rosa Parks moved to the back of the bus.

[CloakNDagger]

I'd also add what would have happened if Rosa Parks moved to the back of the bus.

She shouldn't have. I'm FOR black people having equal rights.