Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[RosyDaisy]

I agree. It usually doesn't take long for someone to be outed as a homophobic fundie prick on here. I have also come to the conclusion that fundies can't really be reasoned with. It usually takes a life altering event or learning more about the world for them to change, if they change at all.

Unfortunately, our job will never be done, but we must continue to fight. These people must be called out on their horrible beliefs. This is why I like FJ.

[formergothardite]

I do have a tiny bit of sympathy for CND because growing up fundie does not prepare you to really defend your beliefs but makes you feel like you can. They tell you they are teaching you how to debate and defend these sorts of beliefs and groups like VF made a big deal about being intellectual, but in the real world, using religion to discriminate and dehumanize an entire group of people is impossible to defend.

[whoviana]

Tossing around words like "rape" and "Auschwitz" and "Hitler" still has to stop, I cannot possibly bring up any excuses for that. If someone cannot comprehend what the holocaust was, instead of making an ass out of themselves on forum, they are welcome to visit memorial sites and documentaries. And check out facts about rape, watch documentaries and interviews with survivors. I'm tired of bigoted assholes just whipping out the tragedy and bane of millions of people in their arguments.

[church_of_dog]

A few comments on the use of the word 'rape'. I'm absolutely not defending CnD, but I feel like I have some sense of what he intended when he used that word, because I have thought the same thing at times.

I have not been raped or had the conscious experience of being around someone who has been raped. (I say 'conscious experience' because of course I've probably been around people who have been raped but I didn't know it -- what I mean is that I haven't been around someone talking about or verbally processing their experience of rape.) So, to me, I get the intellectual meaning of rape, the concept of rape, but I don't have first or even second-hand experience of the emotion or the violence associated with rape.

I have had the experience, and I think this is what happened with CnD here too, of comparing something to rape simply because it was something unwanted, forced by one person onto another person with little or no regard for the other person's feelings. In my case it was a friend who I have some issues with. My friend is't very attuned to the feelings of others, and while he is kind, he is kind because that's who HE is, not because he understands that those around him need someone to be kind or appreciate it when someone is kind. (not sure if that sentence makes any sense).

My friend has a tendency to talk-talk-talk all the time, barely noticing if I am interested or if I have issues of my own that are on my mind. Sometimes my friend would offer the *pretense* of being open to listen instead of talking, by telling me "OK, it's your turn" to bring up a discussion topic (ugh, I had lots of things I wanted to talk about, but I just can't start a personal conversation on demand that way).

Another thing that sometimes happens is my friend will start a story, realize that it is going to take a while, and ask me "is it ok if I tell you about this?" Which seems like a kind and aware thing to do, except that once or twice when I *really* wasn't in the mood to listen to him, I actually said NO to that question, and he went ahead and found a way to tell his story anyway!

To me that felt like he was steamrolling over me, not caring about my feelings, only about his need to talk. The one-person-imposing-themselves-on-another dynamic caused me to mentally compare that situation to rape. "Verbal rape" was the phrase that came to my mind. In my case I didn't actually say that to my friend, I just thought it. But the comparison felt apt.

Only after I had been around people who had been raped (perhaps reading on FJ is where I came across this), did I start to develop an appreciation for the fact that their experience of rape has way more going on in terms of violence and emotional triggers than just having been forced to do something against one's wishes, and that comparisons of other impositions or steamrolling being called a kind of rape isn't appropriate.

I think CnD was making the comparison in the same way I would have to my friend (if we had actually had the conversation I wanted to have, which we didn't) and didn't realize the reaction it would have or how upsetting it would be to those who have been raped.

However, when this happened to me, I paid attention, was respectful of how people were reacting, and LEARNED from my experience. I changed my sense of what was OK to say. I cannot in any way defend CnD's failure to do that. One can only hope that perhaps he is 15 and just not very facile with social graces yet in general -- as some of the former fundies have mentioned on this thread, it can take a while to learn to see objectively outside the frame of their former beliefs and what they were taught.

[CloakNDagger]

Just for you, I hope this will hold a mirror in your delightful face CnD!

German for "Jews are unwelcome"

In Dutch

German and Polish for Jews are prohibited from entering the park

Feelin' silly yet? Or all you think about is "those were the days!"

You guys can't read sometimes. I said I would serve the customer, as long as they weren't trying to rub it in my face. I said I WOULD sell them the flowers. I would NEVER post any of those signs and find them horrific as well.

What I did say was that I believe I should have the freedom to refuse service if someone is trying to shove something in my face that I disagree with. The passage I would refer to is 1 Cor. 10:27-29. Basically, some people I know say I shouldn't shop at someplace like Home Depot or something because they support the homosexual agenda. I say baloney. I'll shop anywhere without asking questions or worrying about it. If someone shoves it in my face that 10% of my purchase is going to the local parade, I'm going to take my business elsewhere.

As to the rape analogy, I agree with y'all, it's not nearly as brutal, but my point was that it is in the same CATEGORY, to me. It's a deliberate forcing the issue against someone's will. In this case, the homosexual couple surely could have taken their business elsewhere and let everyone know that the floral shop was owned by bigots. Instead, they chose the legal hammer.

[whoviana]

You guys can't read sometimes. I said I would serve the customer, as long as they weren't trying to rub it in my face.

FUCK YOU. I hope you go bankrupt.

[CloakNDagger]

FUCK YOU. I hope you go bankrupt.

Why that much hate? Would you serve Doug Phillips is a Tool if he came to your shop and was trying to buy something back in the days before Tool-O-Ween and you knew what was going on? Especially if you thought it might be related to some alleged relationship with someone other than his wife? This isn't so much about the homosexual agenda to me, as it is about the right to refuse service to someone you don't want to do business with for whatever reason.

[KittenMitten]

Why that much hate? Would you serve Doug Phillips is a Tool if he came to your shop and was trying to buy something back in the days before Tool-O-Ween and you knew what was going on? Especially if you thought it might be related to some alleged relationship with someone other than his wife? This isn't so much about the homosexual agenda to me, as it is about the right to refuse service to someone you don't want to do business with for whatever reason.

Digging deeper. I still recommend stopping. You don't seem to know what you are talking about. This thread is about a homosexual issue of someone refusing to sell flowers due to discrimination to a gay couple, which is against the law in that state.

[whoviana]

You are sounding stupider and stupider and stupider and the more you try to use your brain you make more of an idiot of yourself. What the FUCK! is it to me if Doug Philips has a mistress!? What the fuck am I the spanish inquisition?! What does someone buying flowers in my shop for their mistress is a business of mine?! You are stupid, stupid as shit. So incredbly stupid that I am embarrassed for reading your bullcrap. I'm muting you, so from now on, I'm zoning out. The end.

[RosyDaisy]

Why that much hate? Would you serve Doug Phillips is a Tool if he came to your shop and was trying to buy something back in the days before Tool-O-Ween and you knew what was going on? Especially if you thought it might be related to some alleged relationship with someone other than his wife? This isn't so much about the homosexual agenda to me, as it is about the right to refuse service to someone you don't want to do business with for whatever reason.

Yes, because he would be a paying customer. I don't discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc. I won't stoop to the level of fundies by refusing service to them because of their beliefs. That's called discrimination, a concept you don't seem to fully comprehend.

[whoviana]

This fruitcake didn't even talk about refusing serving fundies because of their beliefs. He asked if I would refuse service if I found out that he buys flowers for his mistress :pink-shock: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :wtf: No seriously, what should I do, COUNSEL them instead of selling flowers or what?

[formergothardite]

CND, you didn't answer my question. Why do you get to use your religious beliefs to discriminate against people while others cannot?

What do you mean by "throw it in my face". Be specific. Can they come in and buy flowers and talk about their wedding? Or do they need to just keep quiet and hide who they are? Do you want them to be invisible and pretend to be straight? Can they come in holding hands with they one they love to pick out flowers for their wedding?

It is like the people whose religions beliefs said that interracial marriage was wrong. I remember this so it wasn't that long ago, but I remember being out in public and seeing interracial couples and hearing people say things like "Why can't they keep that private? Why do they have to be all public about this?" It is no different than what you are saying. None. Their strongly held religious beliefs told them that interracial couples were sinful and they were mad that not only did these couples dare to be public about their love, they expected that they would be treated like everyone else. Yet you claim those people shouldn't have the right to deny black customers or interracial couples while at the same time you want to get to deny couples that you disagree with. Why are you the special one who gets to discriminate based on your religion?

[formergothardite]

Why that much hate? Would you serve Doug Phillips is a Tool if he came to your shop and was trying to buy something back in the days before Tool-O-Ween and you knew what was going on? Especially if you thought it might be related to some alleged relationship with someone other than his wife? This isn't so much about the homosexual agenda to me, as it is about the right to refuse service to someone you don't want to do business with for whatever reason.

The homosexual agenda sounds exactly like the black agenda when it came for fighting for equality. The people against it used the exact same arguments you are. You should consider that.

If I run a public business I have absolutely no right to turn refuse to serve someone based on their religious beliefs. Life is full of doing things that you don't want to do. If you don't want to serve the public(and that includes people you don't like) then don't have a public business. Easy-peasy. But if you are going to give people who agree with you an out to refuse service to an entire group of people, then you must do the same for people who don't agree with you. And that means that people can refuse service to Jews, Muslims, Christians, interracial couples, black people, and the list goes on and on.

Discrimination, no matter what group is being discriminated against, is bad, and I think you know that.

[KittenMitten]

This fruitcake didn't even talk about refusing serving fundies because of their beliefs. He asked if I would refuse service if I found out that he buys flowers for his mistress :pink-shock: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :wtf: No seriously, what should I do, COUNSEL them instead of selling flowers or what?

Well, if it wasn't against the law, I'd recommend smacking Doug Phillips is a tool upside the head with a brick, then sell him the flowers.

[whoviana]

Heheh :lol:

[formergothardite]

For CND to show him how close he is to sounding like the people who fought against desegregation. This was read at a city council meeting in Missouri by Rev. Phil Snider.

Good evening, my name is the Reverend Dr. Phil Snider. I was born and raised in Springfield, Missouri. And I stand before you this evening in support of this ordinance.

I worry about the future of our city. Any accurate reading of the bible should make it clear that gay rights goes against the plain truth of the word of god. As one preacher warns, man and overstepping the boundary lines god has drawn by making special rights for gays and lesbians has taken another step in the direction of inviting the judgment of god upon our land.

This step of gay rights is but another stepping stone toward the immorality and lawlessness that will be characteristic of the last days.

This ordinance represents a denial of all that we believe in and no one should force it on us. It’s not that we don’t care about homosexuals. But it’s that our rights will be taken away, and unchristian views will be forced on us and our children. For we would be forced to go against our personal morals. Outside government agents are endeavoring to disturb god’s established order. It is not in line with the bible – do not let people lead you astray.

The liberals leading this movement do not believe in the bible any longer. But every good, substantial, bible believing, intelligent, orthodox christian can read the word of god and know what is happening is not of god. When you run into conflict with god’s established order you have trouble. You do not produce harmony. You produce destruction and trouble and our city is in the greatest danger that it has have ever been in, in its history. The reason is that we have gotten away from the bible of our forefathers.

You see the right of segregation I’m sorry, hold on.

The right of segregation… is clearly established by the holy scriptures, both by precept and example.

I’m sorry I brought the wrong notes with me this evening. I borrowed my argument from the wrong century. It turns out what I’ve been reading to you this whole time are direct quotes from white preachers from the 1950s and 1960s, all in support of racial segregation. All I have done is simply taken out the phrase racial integration and substituted with the phrase gay rights.

I guess the arguments I’ve been hearing around Springfield lately sounded so similar to these that I got them confused. I hope you will not make the same mistake. I hope you will stand on the right side of history. Thank you.

When you sound just like a racist it is time to step back and think about your beliefs.

[ShesCrafty]

As to the rape analogy, I agree with y'all, it's not nearly as brutal, but my point was that it is in the same CATEGORY, to me. It's a deliberate forcing the issue against someone's will. In this case, the homosexual couple surely could have taken their business elsewhere and let everyone know that the floral shop was owned by bigots. Instead, they chose the legal hammer.

No. Just no. Listen to what other people are writing. I understand it's easy to toss around words when you have never personally experienced a situation but when others are telling you how offensive it is, stop and think. Learn. Church_of_dog gave a good example of learning from others experience. You first came on this board to defend Lordes Torres. Do you really think what Doug Phillips did to her is in the same category as having to sell flowers to a gay couple? It's not the same category, ballpark, etc. in any way, shape, or form. Have some empathy. It's okay to be wrong, but learn from your mistakes, instead of digging in your heels and going all in on a losing hand.

Also, I see that you are ignoring FormerGothardite. She makes excellent comparisons between using religion to discriminate against blacks, Jews, etc. and gay people. I would really like to see you give a straight answer to her questions.

[formergothardite]

He still doesn't understand the horror of being raped if he thinks arranging flowers for someone you don't agree with is in the same category.

Arranging flowers for someone I don't agree with and who I view as awful is in the same category as being in the 12 items or less line behind people who have filled their carts with eleventy million things and then argue about coupons.

[nokidsmom]

You guys can't read sometimes. I said I would serve the customer, as long as they weren't trying to rub it in my face.

Been following this thread and I gotta ask what exactly is "rubbing it in your face"? If a gay couple comes into the shop and said "we want flowers for our wedding" and nothing more, how is that different from a hetero couple asking for the same thing? How is asking for the same service as everyone else rubbing it in your face?

Also what formergothardite said, would like to see you answer her questions.

[SamE]

Just saying -

I don't want someone making a cake (or any food) for me that doesn't want to. What is the saying - "never mess with the person making your food?"

You could end up eating their spit.....

[ShesCrafty]

He still doesn't understand the horror of being raped if he thinks making flowers for someone you don't agree with is in the same category.

Making flowers for someone I don't agree with and who I view as awful is in the same category as being in the 12 items or less line behind people who have filled their carts with eleventy million things and then argue about coupons.

I actually think he does understand, at least on a basic level. He just strikes me as someone who is young and stubborn and hasn't learned how to admit when he's wrong, apologize, learn from your mistake, and move on with your life. It's a hard lesson to learn for some people (including me, I HATE being wrong, but I'll suck it up when I have to and it only took me about 30 years to learn to do it :D ). And, unfortunately, it's not a lesson that everyone learns.

[formergothardite]

Just saying -

I don't want someone making a cake (or any food) for me that doesn't want to. What is the saying - "never mess with the person making your food?"

You could end up eating their spit.....

Good thing the people who were fighting against segregated restaurants were willing to take that risk because if they had not and had not forced the issue I don't think things would have changed.

[SamE]

Good for them.

Personally, I don't chance having my food spit in. If someone doesn't want to serve me, I'll take my business elsewhere. Spend my hard earned cash at a business that does want my money.

[DGayle]

A few comments on the use of the word 'rape'. I'm absolutely not defending CnD, but I feel like I have some sense of what he intended when he used that word, because I have thought the same thing at times.

When pointed out how appalling what he said is, that asshole still sees nothing wrong with it. NOTHING. CND is an adult, and is saying the price for his horrific words. No, he's actually getting off easy. And no, the comparison doesn't work. Nothing is being forced onto someone else's body or taken by force. The store owner decided to go into business knowing there are laws, and that implies consent to follow the laws. Not the same thing in any remote way.

[DGayle]

You guys can't read sometimes. I said I would serve the customer, as long as they weren't trying to rub it in my face. I said I WOULD sell them the flowers. I would NEVER post any of those signs and find them horrific as well.

What I did say was that I believe I should have the freedom to refuse service if someone is trying to shove something in my face that I disagree with. The passage I would refer to is 1 Cor. 10:27-29. Basically, some people I know say I shouldn't shop at someplace like Home Depot or something because they support the homosexual agenda. I say baloney. I'll shop anywhere without asking questions or worrying about it. If someone shoves it in my face that 10% of my purchase is going to the local parade, I'm going to take my business elsewhere.

How the flying FUCK is it shoving it in your face simply for Mike and Ike to get married? They exist as a couple. That's it. It's not like they keep spinning you around to make you watch them play tonsil hockey. Mike walking in to order flowers for his wedding to Ike isn't showing their gayness in your face any more than Sally walking in to pick out flowers to her wedding to Linus being rubbing her straightness in your face.

You expect gay people to live in the closet so you can go along on your bigoted way without having to face the existence of gay people, and you FULLY support the "right" of other people to not serve gay people or whoever they say it's against their religion to serve.

As to the rape analogy, I agree with y'all, it's not nearly as brutal, but my point was that it is in the same CATEGORY, to me. It's a deliberate forcing the issue against someone's will. In this case, the homosexual couple surely could have taken their business elsewhere and let everyone know that the floral shop was owned by bigots. Instead, they chose the legal hammer.

Forcing someone to follow the law they agreed to follow when they CHOSE to start a business is in no way even remotely near the same category as someone holding you down while you're begging him to stop, and them him shoving his penis in you. There is NO CONSENT in any way in that. NONE AT ALL. You're a goddamned psychopath if you think that making someone follow laws they agreed to follow is the same as violence against someone's body.