Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[RosyDaisy]

And he flounces. Typical.

[formergothardite]

I was for a peaceful resolution like England, if possible. I think I later conceded that maybe it wasn't possible

It may look like these debates are worthless and do no good, but I think that this right here shows that what we say actually does have an impact on fundies who really want to learn. CND maintained till the very end of that debate that a peaceful resolution would have worked*. Apparently later he realized it wouldn't and admits it now, but it wasn't like he was ever going to come back to that thread and admit he had been wrong about the entire thing. But it gives me hope for him and I think he really is thinking about this stuff. VF in some ways was better at brainwashing followers than Gothard because they made people feel like they were intellectually superior and knew more about history and the Bible than anyone else. That is hard to get over. I think in time CND will turn out just fine.

*his last post on the subject said that if the North would have just let the South go slavery would have ended with no war.

[RosyDaisy]

CND has not once changed his stance on this topic. He only said he would serve a gay couple just to avid trouble. However he does still believe that the florist has a right to refuse service.

I admire your debating skills, FG. At some point though, the kid gloves must come off and a hardline stance has to be taken. There comes a point where we need to just stand up and say "no more".

[whoviana]

CND has not once changed his stance on this topic. He only said he would serve a gay couple just to avid trouble. However he does still believe that the florist has a right to refuse service.

I admire your debating skills, FG. At some point though, the kid gloves must come off and a hardline stance has to be taken. There comes a point where we need to just stand up and say "no more".

I was seriously considering embedding "Hit the road, Jack" from youtube. I'm yet to evolve to where FG is at.

[formergothardite]

CND has not once changed his stance on this topic. He only said he would serve a gay couple just to avid trouble. However he does still believe that the florist has a right to refuse service.

I admire your debating skills, FG. At some point though, the kid gloves must come off and a hardline stance has to be taken. There comes a point where we need to just stand up and say "no more".

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that in this thread he changed his mind, I honestly don't expect him to admit it even if he is having doubts. But in the Civil War thread we had pages of debates and at the end he was saying the exact same thing he was saying at the beginning despite overwhelming evidence that his "plan" was nothing but a pile of bullshit. It looked like it was a complete waste of time, but now he is admitting that we were right, there probably was no way to end slavery peacefully. It didn't look like he learned anything from that thread, but apparently he did.

I'm not sure I was quite as insufferable as he is(I probably was though :lol: ) when I was his age, but I was strongly anti-gay and anti-choice. I did not have the lifetime of VF revisionists history brainwashing to get over like he does so I suspect that does make a difference. Look how I ended up. :lol: The fact that he even attempted to debate these things gives me hope. The fundies who refuse to even attempt to debate or learn are the ones I think are less likely to change.

I don't think anyone should baby him. He needs to realize how awful a human it makes him that he can put arranging flowers in the same category as rape or put consensual sex in the same category as murder. He seems to lack empathy and compassion and has dehumanized people who are gay to the point that he doesn't seem to even to realize how ironic it is that he claims on his FJ profile that his interest is justice. He is fighting against justice! :angry-banghead: He is the bad guy here. He is the one who fights to use his religion to discriminate. He is the one who wants to make an entire group of people, people who aren't harming anyone or society, second class citizens. This needs to be made clear to him because I suspect he is used to viewing himself as being to good champion of justice and equality. The culture he was raised in made him think this way, but it is going to be his choice if he wants to continue on the path of discrimination and be remembered for being on the wrong side of history.

[Cartmann99]

Too busy with real life... maybe I'll have some time later in the week, or maybe not.

And I pretty strongly dislike a lot of Bob Jones stuff, and had already begun that before FJ.

{L_OFFTOPIC} :

I see from your account that you were here earlier this morning, so I'm betting that you are watching this thread. I'm not a big fan of discussions by PM unless the conversation is of a private nature. I'll be posting my response a little later about the open carry issue in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24945&start=40

For the other Free Jingerites, please excuse my interruption of this topic.

[Delilah]

CnD sweetheart, back in the late thirties and beyond in the past century, grocery stores, restaurants and other businesses had a label on their doors saying that DOGS AND JEWS ARE NOT WELCOME. Now the florist that you are trying to cover for, did something very fucking similar. Do you know what is it to see a label like that? I've seen pictures of entire rows of businesses prohbiting Jews from going in, just like dogs. And I have seen the actual freaking labels since some of them have been saved as mementos and kept for the public to see in Holocaust memorial places. Do you know what it feels like to see a label like that for someone with Jewish roots and for a Jewish family? No dogs and Jews allowed? Your beloved florist might be a better person, he might allow dogs in the store, just not homosexuals. That's up a notch, right? :roll: Tell me what is the difference between putting a label on the store that says No jews allowed and refusing to service gay people. Maybe the only difference is that the one with the label are more up front about it and won't allow their hated group to enter the store and face shunning, refusal and senseless humiliation.

I'm very glad that people have saved some of those atrocious labels so they can be displayed in Holocaust memorials. We must never forget how horrible mankind can be. I took both of my daughters to the Civil Rights Museum in Birmingham when they were in elementary school. It's so much easier to show a kid an idea, not just explain it. The museum has a side by side display of a white classroom and a black classroom from the time of segregation. Both my kids stared quietly processing how it was separate, but it sure wasn't equal.

[halcionne]

I'm late to the party, as usual. I read the whole thread and just want to thank formergothardite for persistently challenging CnD to think deeply about his beliefs and pressing him to answer questions he dodged over and over again. My debate skills suck and I'm pretty pessimistic about fundies' capacity for change; it's encouraging (fundiespeak, heh) to see you in action, FG!

I don't remember who linked the 'would jesus discriminate' and other gay-friendly interpretations of scripture, but I read them and they were great.

[Delilah]

I'm trying to catch up on their thread. I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but why is CloaknDagger here? He has pretty many posts, so he's been an active participant here for a while. I thought it was unusual for people who have his philosophies to stick around here. Levi Self posted once to tell us all off, and then he stomped off. I keep clicking around trying to find out about CnD, but all I've got so far is that he's young and was in VF. Please fill me in - it sorta sucks being new.

[formergothardite]

I'm late to the party, as usual. I read the whole thread and just want to thank formergothardite for persistently challenging CnD to think deeply about his beliefs and pressing him to answer questions he dodged over and over again. My debate skills suck and I'm pretty pessimistic about fundies' capacity for change; it's encouraging (fundiespeak, heh) to see you in action, FG!

I don't remember who linked the 'would jesus discriminate' and other gay-friendly interpretations of scripture, but I read them and they were great.

It helps that I used to be at the same place he was, know all the arguments that he is going to use(because I once used them) and know how people easily refuted these arguments. Give me a subject where I haven't had to go through it myself and I suck at debating. :lol:

It is really hard to argue in favor of discriminating against any group.

[nelliebelle1197]

I'm trying to catch up on their thread. I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but why is CloaknDagger here? He has pretty many posts, so he's been an active participant here for a while. I thought it was unusual for people who have his philosophies to stick around here. Levi Self posted once to tell us all off, and then he stomped off. I keep clicking around trying to find out about CnD, but all I've got so far is that he's young and was in VF. Please fill me in - it sorta sucks being new.

He was here to defend Nattie Darnell's sexuality and really posted a lot in the anti-Doug Phillips meltdown, bringing some info and good wishes from Douggie's victim. There are a number of people here who even border on fundie. Like them, he is not someone we discussed. I also think the destruction of Vision Forum has made him question a lot of what he was taught as a child.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Well, sin doesn't have to hurt someone to be a sin. That's not in its definition.

[formergothardite]

Well, sin doesn't have to hurt someone to be a sin. That's not in its definition.

That is true, but one should question the goodness of a God who puts two consenting adults falling in love and getting married on the same level as a person who murders people.

[KittenMitten]

Too busy with real life... maybe I'll have some time later in the week, or maybe not.

And I pretty strongly dislike a lot of Bob Jones stuff, and had already begun that before FJ.

Well, glad to hear your thoughts on the Bob Jones stuff. I'm not impressed with it myself. Not to helpful for kids wanting to go to a state university, especially the History and Science. Are you in college or something? What's keeping you busy?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, or at least I hope not. I'm trying to understand.