Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[whoviana]

CnD cara mia, I'm coming from an extremely homophobic environment. And even as a kid, my stomach was turning as I heard grown ups spewing homophobic crap around me, and I got rid of my own relatives because my I can't tolerate homophobic bullcrap and reasoning in favor of bigots and homophones from anyone. I consider being around homophobes a hostile environment. What makes you think that here the big girls will fail to call you out on your openly homophobic "reasoning"? And guess what, being around bigots is the biggest turndown, the most depressing thing ever, and people just get sour around you. I don't have to be gay to be repulsed by homophobes.

[CloakNDagger]

So you guys think it would be OK to force a printer to sell pamphlets promoting this stuff to Doug and Beall if they managed a revival of VF? Come on.

[sparkles]

If you do business with the public, you don't get to decide what "public" means. It's already been done: Public: of, relating to, or affecting a population or a community as a whole:

People who discriminate should be called out on it each and every time. It has nothing to do with the group or individual that been denied service believing they're somehow special, and they're not "on the warpath." They're fighting for something that's rightfully theirs and should never be in question–equal treatment.

[CloakNDagger]

If you do business with the public, you don't get to decide what "public" means. It's already been done: Public: of, relating to, or affecting a population or a community as a whole:

People who discriminate should be called out on it each and every time. It has nothing to do with the group or individual that been denied service believing they're somehow special, and they're not "on the warpath." They're fighting for something that's rightfully theirs and should never be in question–equal treatment.

So if Doug came to you and asked you to print up his book Robert Lewis Dabney: The Prophet Speaks, or Sprinkle Publications asked you to reprint Dabney's A Defense of Virginia and the South you would believe that it was your obligation to print it for him no matter if you 100% morally disagreed with the contents?

[church_of_dog]

:popcorn2: :popcorn2: :popcorn2: :popcorn2:

[treemom]

The gloating on this makes me sick. If some "gay" person knows I'm a Christian and wants to not sell me flowers, I would just find another flower shop where they don't know me and buy them. I don't need to get in their face about my beliefs. It's annoying that you can be forced to do something you don't want to have anything to do with. Me? I'd sell to them anyway because I don't particularly feel that not selling to them is going to hurt me.

How would you feel if this was applied differently? What if some dude accused of manslaughter wanted to buy a gun and a gun store owner felt it was his responsibility to not sell to him because he thought he might use it the wrong way? I believe this is a double-standard.

Flowers do not pose a life threatening risk. That is the most ridiculous comparison I have ever read.

Do you think they have the legal right to not serve people because of race or gender?

[CloakNDagger]

If you do business with the public, you don't get to decide what "public" means. It's already been done: Public: of, relating to, or affecting a population or a community as a whole:

People who discriminate should be called out on it each and every time. It has nothing to do with the group or individual that been denied service believing they're somehow special, and they're not "on the warpath." They're fighting for something that's rightfully theirs and should never be in question–equal treatment.

And people who discriminate is everyone... You obviously would discriminate against what I believe is my religious necessity to choose to avoid that which I think is aiding active sin against my Creator.

[CloakNDagger]

Flowers do not pose a life threatening risk. That is the most ridiculous comparison I have ever read.

Do you think they have the legal right to not serve people because of race or gender?

Race or gender - no. Beliefs, actions on those beliefs, yes. I don't think a Muslim or Jew should be forced to raise a pig for a Christian or other religion.

[treemom]

Because I think it's a stupid way to refer to them. It's a deliberate takeover of a word meaning happy and the "gay" people I know are definitively not that so much. In fact they are often on a warpath against people who sell flowers and disagree with them, or something.

There are a couple of gay people I know that just mind their own business and don't act like they are different or special, etc... And they are just fine to get along with. We respect each other and they don't try to force me to agree with them, OR visa versa.

You obviously have limited experience with gay people. I find that like all people there are happy and unhappy gay people, nice and not nice gay people, boring and interesting gay people, smart and no smart gay people, etc.

I usually don't force people to agree with me either, but I do expect a certain level of respect which you aren't doing a good job of showing.

I know you are in some weird place in your life where you are trying to figure shit out and it means you are digging in even deeper to the things you are convinced you know, but it makes you come off as a bigger asshole than normal. And you usually come off as a big one with your little "I know things...you guys are wrong" shit.

[treemom]

Race or gender - no. Beliefs, actions on those beliefs, yes. I don't think a Muslim or Jew should be forced to raise a pig for a Christian or other religion.

Well then they shouldn't go into the pig raising business. We aren't talking about forcing people into career.

So your sexual orientation is a belief to you and not a fact? Because I pretty much self identify as straight and it seems like a fact to me not just something I believe in. I assume that everyone would feel the same way about their sexual orientation.

[treemom]

And people who discriminate is everyone... You obviously would discriminate against what I believe is my religious necessity to choose to avoid that which I think is aiding active sin against my Creator.

I recommend you don't open a florist business that serves the public then. That's a pretty easy way to avoid aiding in active sin. It is your responsibility to act in a way to avoid aiding in active sin.

Plus, I am not so sure Jesus would agree with you based on what he said.

[CloakNDagger]

Well then they shouldn't go into the pig raising business. We aren't talking about forcing people into career.

So your sexual orientation is a belief to you and not a fact? Because I pretty much self identify as straight and it seems like a fact to me not just something I believe in. I assume that everyone would feel the same way about their sexual orientation.

Not go into the print business, either? If I am a writer (not that I am, but if that was what I was good at - just like if I was good at growing flowers) and want to influence people and start a publishing company, I therefore have to print everyone's crap from then on out regardless if it was Hitler himself asking me to print Mien Kampf??? I 100% disagree.

[treemom]

Not go into the print business, either? If I am a writer (not that I am, but if that was what I was good at - just like if I was good at growing flowers) and want to influence people and start a publishing company, I therefore have to print everyone's crap from then on out regardless if it was Hitler himself asking me to print Mien Kampf??? I 100% disagree.

You failed to answer my questions. But like guns I believe we can all agree print is different than flowers.

Do you see the difference between providing something that isn't integral to the "sin" versus publishing something that is the message?

And let's not all go hitler on this. Surely you see the difference between WWII, the genocide against Jews, political prisoners, religious prisoners and a bouquet.

[church_of_dog]

Race or gender - no. Beliefs, actions on those beliefs, yes. I don't think a Muslim or Jew should be forced to raise a pig for a Christian or other religion.

Not a relevant comparison. If you choose not to raise pigs, for religious or any other reason, no one makes you raise pigs. But if you decide to have a business raising pigs and selling them to the public, you don't get to choose to sell to only some protected classes and not others.

As for using quotes around the word gay -- I agree that the word 'gay' has acquired a meaning very different from its original meaning. Same with the word 'straight'. So what? You or others might not even like those words. Again, so what? As has been said here on FJ in various contexts, words have meanings. Punctuation also has meanings. Putting quotes around a word generally indicates that you are altering the meaning of the word. So of course people are going to question if you do that. If you don't like the word, there are other (neutral, nonoffensive) words with the same meaning you could use.

[treemom]

Also, I really hope you grow out of your "I know everything and gay people I know aren't happy because how could they be and now they took a word from me I want to use" phase. Trust me, you will be happier.

[church_of_dog]

You failed to answer my questions. But like guns I believe we can all agree print is different than flowers.

Do you see the difference between providing something that isn't integral to the "sin" versus publishing something that is the message?

And let's not all go hitler on this. Surely you see the difference between WWII, the genocide against Jews, political prisoners, religious prisoners and a bouquet.

There is a difference between a copy shop and a publishing house. A copy shop is open to serve the public. So someone comes in with a flyer that you don't approve of, yes, you still need to make copies for them even if you don't agree with what they have written.

A publisher is not "open to the public" -- they do indeed get to pick and choose what to publish.

I think you know all this, and are just looking for an argument for some reason. I'm sorry if that's the case. Seems like your open mind has been pushed closed since your earlier visits here. I'm sorry if that's the case as well.

ETA: I presume it's obvious, but just in case it's not, I'm addressing CnD and not Treemom...

[sparkles]

And people who discriminate is everyone... You obviously would discriminate against what I believe is my religious necessity to choose to avoid that which I think is aiding active sin against my Creator.

I have every right to think that your beliefs are abhorrent but please explain how that means I'm discriminating against you? If you came into the shop where I work, your beliefs wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not we take your business (how would be even know what they are?), unless what you were asking us to do was obviously illegal.

And yes, I would refuse to print Doug's books, because I'm almost 99.9% sure he doesn't fall into any of the protected groups, unless Asshat recently made the list.

[treemom]

There is a difference between a copy shop and a publishing house. A copy shop is open to serve the public. So someone comes in with a flyer that you don't approve of, yes, you still need to make copies for them even if you don't agree with what they have written.

A publisher is not "open to the public" -- they do indeed get to pick and choose what to publish.

I think you know all this, and are just looking for an argument for some reason. I'm sorry if that's the case. Seems like your open mind has been pushed closed since your earlier visits here. I'm sorry if that's the case as well.

ETA: I presume it's obvious, but just in case it's not, I'm addressing CnD and not Treemom...

I actually am comfortable with the copy shop declining to print things. Similar to a minister being allowed to not marry someone they don't approve of.

A flower arrangement is not integral to the message, a minister is. What I think is comparable is refusing to sell you a printer because you want to print Mein Kampf. Actually abetting the printing of it is different.

But I could be wrong in this area, this is where I think it gets a little grey for me. I probably wouldn't go into the printing business because of it.

[whoviana]

CnD sweetheart, back in the late thirties and beyond in the past century, grocery stores, restaurants and other businesses had a label on their doors saying that DOGS AND JEWS ARE NOT WELCOME. Now the florist that you are trying to cover for, did something very fucking similar. Do you know what is it to see a label like that? I've seen pictures of entire rows of businesses prohbiting Jews from going in, just like dogs. And I have seen the actual freaking labels since some of them have been saved as mementos and kept for the public to see in Holocaust memorial places. Do you know what it feels like to see a label like that for someone with Jewish roots and for a Jewish family? No dogs and Jews allowed? Your beloved florist might be a better person, he might allow dogs in the store, just not homosexuals. That's up a notch, right? :roll: Tell me what is the difference between putting a label on the store that says No jews allowed and refusing to service gay people. Maybe the only difference is that the one with the label are more up front about it and won't allow their hated group to enter the store and face shunning, refusal and senseless humiliation.

[CloakNDagger]

You failed to answer my questions. But like guns I believe we can all agree print is different than flowers.

Do you see the difference between providing something that isn't integral to the "sin" versus publishing something that is the message?

And let's not all go hitler on this. Surely you see the difference between WWII, the genocide against Jews, political prisoners, religious prisoners and a bouquet.

I would go to 1 Cor. 8-10 on this with the whole "meat sacrificed to idols" deal. If a sodomite couple comes to me and doesn't shove it in my face and buys a bouquet of flowers they get the flowers. If they shove it in my face and say that they want to have a "wedding" for their "marriage" - and yes, those things are being re-defined right now - then I don't really want to take part in it. Not because it really, really defiles me, but because I believe it is wrong and against nature (Romans 1) and don't believe that it's a positive thing for our society.

Yes, I do see the difference between guns, print, and flowers, but print and arms are protected by the bill of rights (1st and 2nd amendment) - not flowers so much, so if anyone wants to claim Constitutional rights as the basis for a lawsuit forcing a sale, I'd say the print and arms were higher on the list.

[treemom]

Print and arms are protected from infringement from the government.

[whoviana]

Pffffft, as to the comparison of printing out totalitarian shit vs. making a bouquet of flowers: beyond ridiculous! Printed material that contains dangerous and totalitarian bullshit can in no way compared to freaking bunch of flowers unless the florist is asked to make a wreath look like a circle with a swastika in it or a hammer and sickle, which are totalitarian symbols and outbanned by the law so the florists is obliged to refuse such requests.

[CloakNDagger]

CnD sweetheart, back in the late thirties and beyond in the past century, grocery stores, restaurants and other businesses had a label on their doors saying that DOGS AND JEWS ARE NOT WELCOME. Now the florist that you are trying to cover for, did something very fucking similar. Do you know what is it to see a label like that? I've seen pictures of entire rows of businesses prohbiting Jews from going in, just like dogs. And I have seen the actual freaking labels since some of them have been saved as mementos and kept for the public to see in Holocaust memorial places. Do you know what it feels like to see a label like that for someone with Jewish roots and for a Jewish family? No dogs and Jews allowed? Your beloved florist might be a better person, he might allow dogs in the store, just not homosexuals. That's up a notch, right? :roll: Tell me what is the difference between putting a label on the store that says No jews allowed and refusing to service gay people. Maybe the only difference is that the one with the label are more up front about it and won't allow their hated group to enter the store and face shunning, refusal and senseless humiliation.

Jews not welcome is offensive and racist and that's clearly wrong. And I don't advocate not letting the homosexual in the door, just the freedom to say no if someone is shoving something into your face that you don't like or approve of. I feel that's pretty close to rape. Some guy wants gratification. he asks for it, if a woman gives it to him, it's fine. If she says no, then that person is violating the other persons preferences, beliefs, whatever to force a non-consensual act on them.

[treemom]

You are such an asshole with the sodomite couple business. You do realize not everyone agrees that that's what the sin of Sodom right? I also don't believe our laws should be based on your interpret of four words from a Bible that I don't believe is relevant. So, you can have your religious problems with it, but your religious problems with it don't mean you have a right to deny service to people. Trust me, I can come up with some biblical justifications for refusing to serve any race or gender. It isn't that hard.

[whoviana]

Jews not welcome is offensive and racist and that's clearly wrong.

Right. Gays not welcome is offensive and homophobic and horribly wrong. The end.