Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[formergothardite]

CnD. You are digging yourself deeper. I would stop if I were you.

Defending beliefs like his is pretty impossible. When I discovered that you can't defend believing this way I started changing my beliefs, but many times the people just run and stick their heads in the sand. It is easier to not think deeply about ones beliefs, than to accept that what you have been raised to believe and what you have been raised to see as good is actually horrible.

[formergothardite]

She shouldn't have. I'm FOR black people having equal rights.

Even if those equal rights put white people in a position where they will be aiding active sin against their Creator? There were plenty, and I mean plenty, of white people who believe in segregation because of their religion.

[KittenMitten]

She shouldn't have. I'm FOR black people having equal rights.

She DIDN'T move to the back of the bus. That was why she was arrested.

[CloakNDagger]

Even if those equal rights put white people in a position where they will be aiding active sin against their Creator? There were plenty, and I mean plenty, of white people who believe in segregation because of their religion.

They are wrong. The Bible doesn't teach racial inequality. Last I read it still says all people are of one blood.

[formergothardite]

CND doesn't seem to realize that back when black people were fighting for equality, the people against it reacted exactly like he is reacting to gay people wanting equality. The arguments he is using are the exact same ones they used. He is far enough from that point in time that it seems ridiculous that people would try and put black people in the back of the bus. But decades from now it will seem ridiculous that people wouldn't fix flowers for a gay couple.

[KittenMitten]

They are wrong. The Bible doesn't teach racial inequality. Last I read it still says all people are of one blood.

Then gay people should be able to get married and services that a part of the joyous wedding celebration.

[formergothardite]

They are wrong. The Bible doesn't teach racial inequality. Last I read it still says all people are of one blood.

Your beliefs on the subject are completely irrelevant. It is still their strongly held religious beliefs. So why are you for equal rights that put would put people in a position where they will be aiding in active sin against their Creator?

[treemom]

They are wrong. The Bible doesn't teach racial inequality. Last I read it still says all people are of one blood.

If it works that way, then let me say you are wrong. Unless it doesn't work that way which means why is it ok to refuse service to gay people but wrong to refuse service based in race. It can't just be "because I said that's like rape"

[formergothardite]

There are tons of Christians who disagree with CND about his interpretation of the Bible and homosexuality, so to follow his train of thought it should work for those people to say that CND is wrong and that the Bible doesn't say being gay is a sin.

[treemom]

And I'm not so sure that I guess I was a little over the top is the correct apology or response when you compare being required to serve gay people at a public establishment to Hitler and rape.

[whoviana]

The same aces in the hole... (or up the hole...) violent sexual assaults against people or mass murders and genocides when they have to defend their homophobic or anti-woman views. It is not only not accurate but adds an atrocious insult to a horrible injury.

Also! I've been touring holocaust memorial places and exhbitions in the past 2 weeks with family members and by late last week, I ended up curled up in a fetal position watching disney and drinking to not get some sort of a seizure from the things I've seen in those images. I so would like to elegantly place my shoes between your jaws. Put a sock in it. Also, leave rape out of it as well. Kindly fornicate yourself with mutual consent.

[formergothardite]

CND must have a mountain of hate for people who are gay(might explain why no gay people appear happy around him) and/or he is one of those people who thinks rape isn't "that bad". I can't think of any other reason it would ever occur to him that arranging flowers for a gay couple is almost exactly like being raped.

[ShesCrafty]

Ok, so my analogies were over the top a bit.

You smug, self-centered little bastard. Comparing selling flowers to rape is not "over the top a bit." What you said is AWFUL, you should be apologizing, not trying to downplay it, that's not going to fly here. It's so completely inappropriate there really are no words to describe it. As a rape survivor and human being, I find both you and your analogy disgusting.

I hope there is a Heaven and I hope you get there. And I hope Jesus Christ himself gives you the smack down you so richly deserve, because your head is so far up your ass, I don't think there's hope you're going to reach any type of self-awareness in this lifetime.

[CloakNDagger]

That wasn't an apology.

[treemom]

That wasn't an apology.

Well it was also a shitty response. But I guess you don't owe people who have been raped an apology do you? Because Jesus clearly didn't think it was important to be a peacemaker.

[ShesCrafty]

That wasn't an apology.

Yes, I am aware of that, that's why I said you should be apologizing and called you disgusting because you didn't even have the balls to apologize for your offensive analogy. Maybe Jesus can smack some reading comprehension into you too.

[church_of_dog]

Ok, so my analogies were over the top a bit. Still don't think that forcing a person who thinks differently to do something they don't want to do, and then bringing a lawsuit down on them that financially ruins them is any sort of win. It will only entrench them in their beliefs. I think that's a fail on the part of the plaintiffs. Best to take the high road and take your business elsewhere.

No one is forcing anyone. If you don't want to do [insert product or service here] for homosexual humans, then don't open a public business offering [insert product or service here]. If you have such a business, you are not legally permitted to decline to offer [insert product or service here] to some humans but not others, if the reasoning is based on whether or not they are members of a protected class. You can do [insert product or service here] for friends unofficially and include/exclude whoever you want for any reason. But not if it's a business offering [insert product or service here] to the public.

She shouldn't have. I'm FOR black people having equal rights.

What you are for or against is [thankfully] not the arbiter of whether something is right or wrong.

They are wrong. The Bible doesn't teach racial inequality. Last I read it still says all people are of one blood.

I assume you understand that the Bible is not the basis for law in the USA. I know that isn't what anyone is arguing here, I just can't help but be flabbergasted when people argue for or against something based on what it says in the bible instead of whether it's, you know, ethically right or wrong...

[CloakNDagger]

I assume you understand that the Bible is not the basis for law in the USA. I know that isn't what anyone is arguing here, I just can't help but be flabbergasted when people argue for or against something based on what it says in the bible instead of whether it's, you know, ethically right or wrong...

Who's standard of ethics? The general consensus of the biggest portion of the populous?

[church_of_dog]

Who's standard of ethics? The general consensus of the biggest portion of the populous?

Well now, that's actually a good question. A bigger question than we can probably delve into here. My best guess is that the ideal standard of ethics would arise from some combination of some inherent attributes of "humanity" or "humanness" together with some component of the mores of the culture doing the defining (which do vary from culture to culture, and, yes, they also change over time, as has been mentioned here).

Obviously we can each only speak from our own filters of values, experiences, etc. I just had to articulate my opinion that it's better to think for ourselves than to simply parrot the book that one has been taught contains all the answers.

[formergothardite]

That wasn't an apology.

There is a lot to be said for kindness, compassion, and empathy. It is even included in the Bible. Too bad you have seemed to skip over those parts. If you had not you would perhaps understand how horrific it is that you compared arranging flowers for a person who doesn't share one's beliefs to being violently sexually assaulted.

You are at the point where it is clear you cannot defend your beliefs. At this point you can stop and think long and hard about why you want to believe things that are indefensible, or you can act like a petulant child. You have appeared to have gone the petulant child route.

[formergothardite]

Who's standard of ethics? The general consensus of the biggest portion of the populous?

Your standard of ethics harms an entire group of people by denying them equality and turned you into the sort of a person who downplays rape and the Holocaust. So I'm pretty sure we should not go with that one.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Ok, so my analogies were over the top a bit. Still don't think that forcing a person who thinks differently to do something they don't want to do, and then bringing a lawsuit down on them that financially ruins them is any sort of win. It will only entrench them in their beliefs. I think that's a fail on the part of the plaintiffs. Best to take the high road and take your business elsewhere.

Forcing someone to do something they don't want to? Sure, it would be wrong to force someone to do something illegal or dangerous, but part of life is having to put that aside and do things you don't want to because it works out better in the long run, or because it is the right thing to do. If everyone only did the things they want to do, with no regard for others, the world would be full of spoiled, selfish assholes.

Not wanting to do something that you don't want to and feeling outraged if you are made to do something you don't want to is childish behaviour. Kids don't understand why they have to eat their vegetables, go to bed early, or go to school, and wish they were an adult because their parents cant make them go to bed at 7pm, or tell them they cant have candy for breakfast...but as we grow up, we realise that these things are important, because sometimes we have to do things we don't want to, not because we like doing them, but because it is part of life and good things happen from doing it.

Most people don't want to get up really early each morning. But they have to-most jobs start pretty early in the morning, and it is important to get up early if you want to keep your job. Or because your kid goes to school in the morning, and you need to make sure they have everything they need and have had a good breakfast, and you need to make sure they are ready to go so they aren't late, because it is important that they get a good education.

I want to stay up late-but my kids school starts at 8:45 so I need to get up at half 7 every morning to get them there in time, and if I stayed up until I wanted to go to bed, I would be tired all day.

Most people would prefer it if they could eat junk food every day, but we don't. Why? Because even though we want to eat that extra slice of cake, or have pizza again, we moderate how much we eat these things because we know that if we eat unhealthy food every day and always give in to what we want, we will be unhealthy and we don't want to make ourselves have health problems in the future. I don't like most vegetables, but I eat them anyway because they are healthy and good for our bodies, and I want to set a good example for my kids.

When you work, you need to follow instructions and listen to your boss, and also deal with your co workers and members of the public, and this requires you to act professional and don't let your own feelings get in the way of being a mature and professional adult. This means that not liking someone shouldn't affect how you work with them. Sure, maybe Bob at the office is a smug jerk who kisses up to the boss...but you cant tell him that and must work with Bob as if you didn't think he was a total dick. There are some jobs, like retail, customer service or tech support, you have to work with members of the public. Some of these people are complete and utter douchebags, or are rude, or are possibly the dumbest human beings you have ever encountered in your life. But you must keep your cool and remain professional, and you do have to work with these people and serve them without bias, because that is your job. Sure, you can refuse service to people who are being really rude, or are destroying store property, but you cant refuse service to someone just because of minor little things that make you not really like them.

If you worked at McDonalds and refused to serve someone because they were fat, and you think their choice to eat unhealthy foods at their weight was disgusting, you would probably be fired because it is your job to sell food, you just cost the company money by turning away a customer because of your personal bias, and because you were being a dick and its none of your business what people eat.

If you have beliefs that would affect your ability to do certain things that would be required of a job, you have two choices: 1. Don't take the job, instead go for a job that would not put you in that position. 2. Get the job and do the thing you don't want to do because being employed and being a good employee is more important. If your pro life beliefs prevent you from discussing abortion and birth control, you should probably not get a job at a sexual health clinic. If you are a vegetarian and absolutely disgusted by the idea of meat eating, you probably should not get a job as a waiter at a restaurant that exclusively serves steak. Absolutely hate children? A career in teaching is not for you. And if you want to do a service that deals with weddings, but are not willing to put your feelings aside and get the fuck over it if the guy coming in to look at flowers brings his future husband, or if you are a baker and you ask the bride about the groom and she tells you that she doesn't have one, she is marrying a woman, maybe you shouldn't take that job. Or, if you work at a bridal shop, and a couple come in to look at clothes for their wedding party, including a bridesmaid dress for their daughter, who was born out of wedlock, or run a popular wedding venue and a white woman comes in with her fiancé, who is black. If you cant accept that, maybe weddings aren't for you. Or you could affiliate yourself with Vision Forum (oh waiiit, they don't exist anymore :lol: ) and brand yourself exclusively to Quiverfull people by filling it full of God and courtship stuff to the point where regular people would be totally put off...but even then, some people might not be put off by that and look past all the submission shit when looking for a wedding photographer, or florist, or baker, and still want to hire you. And you would have to do it.

[CloakNDagger]

There is a lot to be said for kindness, compassion, and empathy. It is even included in the Bible. Too bad you have seemed to skip over those parts. If you had not you would perhaps understand how horrific it is that you compared arranging flowers for a person who doesn't share one's beliefs to being violently sexually assaulted.

Way to assume things. And I think today's judicial system is a bit violent, especially when a choice to not sell flowers, to not voluntarily exchange goods for cash would end up like this.

You are at the point where it is clear you cannot defend your beliefs. At this point you can stop and think long and hard about why you want to believe things that are indefensible, or you can act like a petulant child. You have appeared to have gone the petulant child route.

I don't think I even care to defend them here anymore. You guys would clearly be happy to use force to make me believe differently than I do.

[treemom]

Way to assume things. And I think today's judicial system is a bit violent, especially when a choice to not sell flowers, to not voluntarily exchange goods for cash would end up like this.

I don't think I even care to defend them here anymore. You guys would clearly be happy to use force to make me believe differently than I do.

No, no one is suggesting force be used to make you believe differently. You have a flair for hyperbole.

[formergothardite]

Way to assume things. And I think today's judicial system is a bit violent, especially when a choice to not sell flowers, to not voluntarily exchange goods for cash would end up like this.

I don't think I even care to defend them here anymore. You guys would clearly be happy to use force to make me believe differently than I do.

I assumed that you have skipped them because you lack all of those character qualities as demonstrated in this thread. I want you to think deeply about your beliefs. And think about if you can defend them(I assure you, on this subject you cant. I've been on both sides of this debate. Your stance is indefensible. Feel free to continue trying, it will do you some good to find this for yourself) and if you want to continue believing things that turn you into a person who wants to deny equality to an entire group of people.