Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[DGayle]

Because I think it's a stupid way to refer to them. It's a deliberate takeover of a word meaning happy and the "gay" people I know are definitively not that so much.

Words evolve over time. That's why we no longer speak in the same way as the Jing James version of the bible. Er, wait. That should be, Thou shalt not speaketh...fuck it. We're speaking 2015-English. Catch up with the times.

[Rachel333]

So what would a job be where you are allowed to choose who you serve? Does a wedding photographer have to work with someone even if they don't feel like it would be a good fit?

Growing up I heard a lot about how we're not supposed to aid sinners in their sin, and how you should only go into business with other believers (though they're talking about a business partnership, not just doing business with people). I in no way believe homosexuality is wrong, and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but apparently there's still something in me that emphasizes with both parties in cases like this, even though I really disagree with the florist.

I'm not at all trying to defend homophobia (I'm gay myself, if it matters), but I feel conflicted about situations like this. The awful thing is, when it comes to other examples like people refusing to serve people because of their race, religion, etc., I completely agree that shouldn't be allowed, but when it comes to issues like homosexuality I have a different reaction. It's really disturbing to realize there's probably still some homophobia ingrained in me.

[DGayle]

If VF were still in business and some VF dude figured out who you were and made a point to come to your store and buy something loudly proclaiming that it was going to be used at VF for "God's work" I believe you should have the right to deny him that service if it bothers you.

If someone wants to buy something I sell, and they imply they're going to go commit a crime with it, I'd have a duty to report that person to the cops.

And owning a business isn't a protected right? Maybe not, but the ability to earn a livelihood should be, and if no one will hire you, it should not be in the power of government to force you to starve if you cannot be hired or if you desire to work for yourself...

Are you intentionally dense? If no one hires you based on religion, that's a violation of your rights. Likewise, you can't turn around and deny people service based on protected classes. It goes both ways.

[KittenMitten]

Who's standard of ethics? The general consensus of the biggest portion of the populous?

Well, I don't use the bible for my ethics. I use a belief that seems to cross all religions. The Golden Rule and the Silver Rule. A very good guide to living.

[DGayle]

So you guys think it would be OK to force a printer to sell pamphlets promoting this stuff to Doug and Beall if they managed a revival of VF? Come on.

Yes.

[DGayle]

And people who discriminate is everyone... You obviously would discriminate against what I believe is my religious necessity to choose to avoid that which I think is aiding active sin against my Creator.

"Waaaaaah, people are discriminating against my right to discriminate!"

If you want to "to avoid that which I think is aiding active sin against my Creator," then down own a business that serves the public. Don't work for a shop servicing the public either since you might have to serve gay people.

[ShesCrafty]

I don't think I even care to defend them here anymore.

You mean you don't know how to defend them anymore. It's quite apparant you have no idea how to get out of the hole you have dug for yourself and are grasping at straws.

[DGayle]

Jews not welcome is offensive and racist and that's clearly wrong. And I don't advocate not letting the homosexual in the door, just the freedom to say no if someone is shoving something into your face that you don't like or approve of. I feel that's pretty close to rape. Some guy wants gratification. he asks for it, if a woman gives it to him, it's fine. If she says no, then that person is violating the other persons preferences, beliefs, whatever to force a non-consensual act on them.

Did you seriously just say that forcing a shop to abide by the law and provide equal service is like rape? FUCK YOU!!! As a rape survivor, GO FUCK YOUR HATEFUL NASTY SELF WITH A RED HOT POKER, you stupid, STUPID bitch!!

[DGayle]

Wow, you guys so misunderstand and hate. I'm saying I don't believe in non-consent, which is where this judicial decision is going. If I have a belief, any belief, I shouldn't force it on another against their will.

I'm not saying I can't live with them, I'm not saying they can't live next door, I'm not saying I won't eat with them, I'm not calling for their execution, I even said I'd sell to them provided they weren't trying to shove it in my face. I'm saying I don't believe that anyone should force another to participate in something that they fundamentally disagree with for whatever reason.

You aren't participating in someone else's marriage by making the goddamned flowers. And how is it shoving it in someone's face if that person knows you're gay and you're just ordering some wedding flowers? Seems to me your fucked-up idea of what it means to not shove things in your face is for someone to be so deep in the closet that you don't know they're gay. You're a horrible person for advocating discrimination.

If my religion said it's a sin to walk by people like you without punching you in the face, are you going to accept me punching you? Because it would violate my religion not to?

[church_of_dog]

No, no one is suggesting force be used to make you believe differently. You have a flair for hyperbole.

CnD, no one is trying to force you to do anything. Not even to read here and respond and engage in discussion or (Dog forbid) debate.

We encourage it (generally speaking) but there is no force involved or implied or desired.

[DGayle]

Ok, so my analogies were over the top a bit. Still don't think that forcing a person who thinks differently to do something they don't want to do, and then bringing a lawsuit down on them that financially ruins them is any sort of win. It will only entrench them in their beliefs. I think that's a fail on the part of the plaintiffs. Best to take the high road and take your business elsewhere.

Aside from you being a pure evil piece of rotten shit, you also think the fine was going to break that business. $2,000. The owner of the shop has chosen to spend more than that fighting it. If anyone ruins her financially, it's herself.

[DGayle]

She shouldn't have. I'm FOR black people having equal rights.

Why them, but not gays? If a store's owner feels serving black people is wrong, are you for or against "raping" that store owner by forcing equal treatment as white, or are you for allowing that store owner to post a "no negros" sign? If it's the 1st, how is that different than forcing a store owner to serve gays with equal treatment? If it's the 2nd, you're not believing in any equal rights for blacks.

[thoughtful]

And I'm not so sure that I guess I was a little over the top is the correct apology or response when you compare being required to serve gay people at a public establishment to Hitler and rape.

I suppose "I guess I was a little over the top with the rape and Hitler stuff" is too long for a post count title. Darn.

CnD is not just showing his true colors now -- his nastiness about gay people goes back to some of his earliest posts here. The scare quotes start with his very first post:

viewtopic.php?f=164&t=20466&p=675651#p675651

More:

viewtopic.php?f=164&t=20466&p=696029#p696029

viewtopic.php?f=164&t=20466&start=120#p695586

viewtopic.php?f=164&t=20466&start=140#p695904

[formergothardite]

You mean you don't know how to defend them anymore. It's quite apparant you have no idea how to get out of the hole you have dug for yourself and are grasping at straws.

Exactly. And I suspect it makes him very, very angry that he can't defend his beliefs, so he will just tell himself that he just chooses to not defend them. When you have been raised to think that you are morally superior to everyone else and your beliefs are the good and right ones, it is hard to deal with discovering that your morals are fairly atrocious and the only way to defend your beliefs is to use the same arguments racists use to defend segregation. I've had to do it and it suck but holding on to harmful beliefs sucks even more.

I truly hope that one day CND looks back on this and cringes at what he said. I hope he does grow and become a better human. One who believes in equality for all and who would never think of saying that selling flowers to people you don't agree with is practically the same as rape.

[ShesCrafty]

I suppose "I guess I was a little over the top with the rape and Hitler stuff" is too long for a post count title. Darn.

How about "Selling bouquets to "gays"=rape" ? At least it rhymes :D

[ShesCrafty]

Exactly. And I suspect it makes him very, very angry that he can't defend his beliefs, so he will just tell himself that he just chooses to not defend them. When you have been raised to think that you are morally superior to everyone else and your beliefs are the good and right ones, it is hard to deal with discovering that your morals are fairly atrocious and the only way to defend your beliefs is to use the same arguments racists use to defend segregation. I've had to do it and it sucks.

I would imagine it does and I do have some compassion for him (which obviously isn't reciprocated) and anyone else having to go through that self-discovery. It must be very difficult. I do hope he comes out of it on the right moral side.

[Cleopatra7]

Coming to this party rather late, although I didn't expect this thread to blow it like it did. I'm going to assume that CnD, like many fundies, probably doesn't know that much about the fight for civil rights for blacks or that if he did, he probably got a version that was like the kind found in A Beka Books. I don't know if CnD will be back, but if he's at least lurking I want to recommend to him to educate himself a bit more about the Civil Rights Movement and the role of Christianity in opposing said rights. I would recommend "Mississippi Praying: Southern White Evangelicals and the Civil Rights Movement, 1945-1975" by Carolyn Renee Dupont, a relatively new book that illustrates how fundamentalist Christianity in the white community was used to justify the extremely repressive racial environment in 20th century Mississippi. If you don't want to spend the money on this, which admittedly is a bit pricey and probably not availible in the average bookstore, then read this article on how "religious liberty" arguments were used to bypass laws against racial discrimination:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/0 ... -anti-gay/

(link not broken because it's a secular site)

Also see this 1956 article from Ebony magazine that showcases a visit to an "average" Mississippi Baptist church that preaches separate heavens for blacks and whites:

http://www.emmetttillmurder.com/Ebony%201956.htm

(link not broken because it's an educational site on the Emmett Till murder)

The problem as it see it is that CnD takes for granted the changes that have occurred in racial attitudes over the past 50-60 years. Had he been born in the early 20th century, then he most likely would have bought into the "Curse of Ham" theory from the book of Genesis that stated that Africans were cursed to be subject to whites because of Ham making fun of Noah's drunkenness after the flood. No one in the mainstream conservative movement of the Cold War era was in favor of civil rights for blacks. Not William F. Buckley, the so-called Father of Modern Conservatism, not Ronald Reagan, not Barry Goldwater. To them, the Civil Rights Movement was a fifth column for Moscow, and desegregated schools were just a slippery slope to the gulags. Jerry Falwell began his career as a segregationist and the roots of Liberty University were as a "segregation academy." Falwell preached a famous sermon called "Ministers and Marchers" (which does not appear to be online) in which he ironically denounced ministers like Martin Luther King who were involved in politics, and accused the leaders of the Civil Rights Movement of being communists.

If it seems "obvious" that racial prejudice is wrong today, it's because a massive movement (one that white conservatives and white Christians were largely not a part of) took place to change attitudes and the legal system and that included eliminating "religious liberty" loopholes. If many posters on FJ object to "religious liberty" opt outs, it's because they too know that this phrase has a rotten history that predates the rise the LGBT rights movement. We've seen what happens when bigots try to use religion as a justification for discrimination, and there's a reason why that loophole was sewn up, so to speak. The fact that this "Zombie Jim Crow" is coming back, once again under the guise of religion, illustrates the importance of anti-discrimination laws, because clearly a lot of people are jonesing to do some discriminating. It was decided more than fifty years ago that a "sincerely held belief" in the Curse of Ham was not a sufficient reason to deny black people service, and at some point "a sincerely held belief" won't be a good enough reason to deny LGBT people service.

[CloakNDagger]

There's a lot of difference in my opinion between what the Bible says in Romans 1 and other places about what we now call sexual orientation and blacks or other peoples. I'm fairly educated about the civil rights movement.

[treemom]

There's a lot of difference in my opinion between what the Bible says in Romans 1 and other places about what we now call sexual orientation and blacks or other peoples. I'm fairly educated about the civil rights movement.

Not educated enough to know why invoking hitler and rape might be a problem

[formergothardite]

There's a lot of difference in my opinion between what the Bible says in Romans 1 and other places about what we now call sexual orientation and blacks or other peoples. I'm fairly educated about the civil rights movement.

You are missing the whole point. It doesn't matter how you feel on the subject because if it is wrong to force people to serve gay couples because it violates their religion then it is wrong to force people to serve black people because of their religion. Why do you get to use your religious views to discriminate while others cannot? My parents were there during that time. They know people who felt like their deeply held religious beliefs were being violated when they were told they could no longer discriminate against black people. They felt just as deeply about the subject as you do about gay people, right down to them saying stuff like "Why do blacks have to be all up in my face?"

And seriously, do you not realize how awful it is that you compared arranging flowers to rape? I am still stunned that anyone with an ounce of empathy and compassion could write something like that and then refuse to even apologize. You have a religion of cold hearted pride if that is what your religion has taught you to do.

[DGayle]

Way to assume things. And I think today's judicial system is a bit violent, especially when a choice to not sell flowers, to not voluntarily exchange goods for cash would end up like this.

Were you repeatedly hit on the head as a baby? Seriously. You see a $2,000-fine for a willful violation of a consumer protection law as violent? How?

Maybe if you weren't a homophobic asshole who actually advocates taking away rights from a whole group of people! It'd be 1 thing if you said you think homosexuality is gross, but weren't going to try taking away rights. But you want to actually demote a group of people to non-humans where service is a privilege for them and a right for the rest of us.

Do you really think Jesus would be proud to come to a country where stores had signs saying who can't go in there? No Jews and blacks in this store, no gays or women in that. Is that what you think would make him proud? A country of exclusion? Christians like you make all Christians look bad.

[whoviana]

Just for you, I hope this will hold a mirror in your delightful face CnD!

German for "Jews are unwelcome"

In Dutch

German and Polish for Jews are prohibited from entering the park

Feelin' silly yet? Or all you think about is "those were the days!"

[SoybeanQueen]

The Bible also says all authority comes from God. That means even if your local and state government/authority is full of crazy hippies who believe in things like protected classes and equal rights, God still put that authority over you. Therefore, by breaking the laws that God Himself put in place, you'd actually be sinning by denying service to the gay couple.

Let's call it what it was, really. The flower shop owner wanted to make a big, fat point about beliefs and show off a supreme level of "Godliness." Wasn't there also something in the Bible about making a spectacle of one's self? And about being kind? Those instructions are far more clear than the sins of the Sodomites.

Oh, and I vote for "gay scare quotes" as the post count title.

[RosyDaisy]

CnD just needs to crawl back under whatever rock he came from. Reasoning and arguing with fundies like him is pointless.

[whoviana]

I'm really glad tho, that she or he showed their face. Their teeth and true colors, actually. It is good to be waking up to reality every once in a while, since our job is not done yet. We must know that there are people like these out there, enabling racism, homophobia and rape-apology. And also, shows how a community can quickly form a close-knit anti-homophobe shield when discrimination against human beings rears up it's ugly head. This makes me feel strong, empowered and fuels me up so when I have to face and confront this kind of shit in real life and there isn't an entire board of people behind me, I still have confidence to be vocal about my concerns.