Josie had seizure for 15 mins before EMT arrive- People Mag

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Count me in the camp of those wondering why Jana continued to let Josie's head hang over the sink.

"Hang over the sink" makes it sound like she was unsupported. And it was likely because with young children who aren't at a risk of spine injuries, you're supposed to move them to a flat surface, preferably one you can stand at (hence the kitchen counter), when preparing for CPR (which Josie may have needed if the airway was blocked or she took a turn for the worse) (obviously you wouldn't leave them unattended, for those who were afraid of Josie getting injured despite being held the entire time); and the sink offered a place for her to discharge saliva and vomit when she came around.

Jana held her head and neck the entire time to keep her airway clear, so I don't see why it's an issue that she was over the sink. It's not like and just put her on her back and let her head dangle or whatever.

[myfeetarecute]

"Hang over the sink" makes it sound like she was unsupported. And it was likely because with young children who aren't at a risk of spine injuries, you're supposed to move them to a flat surface, preferably one you can stand at (hence the kitchen counter), when preparing for CPR (which Josie may have needed if the airway was blocked or she took a turn for the worse) (obviously you wouldn't leave them unattended, for those who were afraid of Josie getting injured despite being held the entire time); and the sink offered a place for her to discharge saliva and vomit when she came around.

Jana held her head and neck the entire time to keep her airway clear, so I don't see why it's an issue that she was over the sink. It's not like and just put her on her back and let her head dangle or whatever.

I get that. Good points. I didn't see her being supported the entire time, which is why it bothered me. But hey, if you saw it, I stand corrected. :think:

[SassyPants]

I think Jana originally brought her to the sink because she was vomiting.

[MalteseBaby]

First Responder classes in the USA usually teach that the first step is to gently turn the person onto their side in the absence of known or suspected fresh spinal cord injury ( there''s almost always an exception, hence why I use " usually" or "most" in most of my posts). If thick material ( vomitus, just- chewed food, etc) is present in the mouth, it should not be removed with fingers or anything else placed into the person's mouth. Jaws,teeth and tongue can be injured, the secretions can be forced into the trachea and lungs, and the person with the fingers inserted can be bitten severely as well. Nothing goes into the mouth during a clonic seizure when the jaws are clenched.

Turning the person having the seizure onto their side automatically gives vomit and excessive saliva a way to get out of the stomach or mouth. It drains out the side by gravity, and the person does not choke. The main exception to this in the home setting would be, of course, a person of any age who has a seizure and ALSO has choked on food or a foreign object and does not have an open airway and is unconscious or cannot speak due to blocked airway. Treatment is to dislodge the swallowed object by gentle back blows for children under the age of one year and the Heimlich maneuver for children over one year and adults.

I noticed that Josie was maintained and held by several people in the supine position. Optimally, she should have been turned onto her side first thing. Also, placing her on an extremely hard surface like the sink countertop if she was having a grand mal seizure can lead to broken or dislocated joints and bones in a small child ( I could not tell in the portion of the video I happened to view if it was a grand mal or petit mal seizure, petit mal seizures being less common in febrile seizure occurrences).

The best place to put her would be on a carpeted floor or a floor with a rug. Padded but not soft enough that her airway would be compromised. NO pillow or other items underneath the head as this can be a suffocation hazard. If she was outdoors, a grassy area vs. a big rock or car trunk or such.

The main goals are to protect airway and musculoskeletal systems as they are the ones under stress in a seizure, the musculoskeletal system being especially fragile in a pediatric seizure with a child as tiny as Josie or smaller.

It is usually a common misconception that a child or adult stops breathing during a seizure and needs O2 and CPR. The seizure makes it hard to see respirations, and often, there is tongue displacement and change in facial color, which lead to the belief that the person is not breathing, when they likely are.

In 35 years of practice, and emergency care for many people with a seizure arising from many different conditions, I've only seen one instance of respiratory arrest and it was in a COPD patient ( whole other set of circumstances going on with an end stage COPD patient).

I've seen pediatric patients with episodes of status epilepticus, which means one seizure after another not responsive to IV anti- seizure drugs, and never a resp. arrest. They are pale, or blue, or purple, but they are breathing. in my experience.

The reason we do not ordinarily give O2 to a person having a seizure EVEN when we cannot SEE respiratory effort but the person has a pulse between 60-140 ( seizures can elevate pulse rate temporarily) is because once a person becomes unconscious, in the absence of brain stem injury, the CO2 drive is the brain's trigger to initiate and continue respiration. Giving supplemental O2 decreases the amount of CO2, thus decreases the CO2 drive in the brain. In the home or with basic life support, there is no monitoring of the O2 saturation so you may be Supplemental O2 is usually only used when the person having a seizure is otherwise compromised by disease, extreme age, or otherwise medically fragile. ( except COPD or some other chronic respiratory diseases which requires more complex monitoring than can be explained here).

I can probably explain this better in reverse. When some children are learning about how to get attention, they learn that they can usually " scare mommy" by holding their breath until they temporarily lose consciousness. The short loss of consciousness is due to the low CO2 level.( Hyperventilation syndrome or hypocapnia is the medical term.) Some adults accidentally hyperventilate during anxiety attacks of a severe nature, and can accidentally briefly lose consciousness).

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

First Responder classes in the USA usually teach that the first step is to gently turn the person onto their side in the absence of known or suspected fresh spinal cord injury ( there''s almost always an exception, hence why I use " usually" or "most" in most of my posts). If thick material ( vomitus, just- chewed food, etc) is present in the mouth, it should not be removed with fingers or anything else placed into the person's mouth. Jaws,teeth and tongue can be injured, the secretions can be forced into the trachea and lungs, and the person with the fingers inserted can be bitten severely as well. Nothing goes into the mouth during a clonic seizure when the jaws are clenched.

Turning the person having the seizure onto their side automatically gives vomit and excessive saliva a way to get out of the stomach or mouth. It drains out the side by gravity, and the person does not choke. The main exception to this in the home setting would be, of course, a person of any age who has a seizure and ALSO has choked on food or a foreign object and does not have an open airway and is unconscious or cannot speak due to blocked airway. Treatment is to dislodge the swallowed object by gentle back blows for children under the age of one year and the Heimlich maneuver for children over one year and adults.

I noticed that Josie was maintained and held by several people in the supine position. Optimally, she should have been turned onto her side first thing. Also, placing her on an extremely hard surface like the sink countertop if she was having a grand mal seizure can lead to broken or dislocated joints and bones in a small child ( I could not tell in the portion of the video I happened to view if it was a grand mal or petit mal seizure, petit mal seizures being less common in febrile seizure occurrences).

The best place to put her would be on a carpeted floor or a floor with a rug. Padded but not soft enough that her airway would be compromised. NO pillow or other items underneath the head as this can be a suffocation hazard. If she was outdoors, a grassy area vs. a big rock or car trunk or such.

The main goals are to protect airway and musculoskeletal systems as they are the ones under stress in a seizure, the musculoskeletal system being especially fragile in a pediatric seizure with a child as tiny as Josie or smaller.

It is usually a common misconception that a child or adult stops breathing during a seizure and needs O2 and CPR. The seizure makes it hard to see respirations, and often, there is tongue displacement and change in facial color, which lead to the belief that the person is not breathing, when they likely are.

In 35 years of practice, and emergency care for many people with a seizure arising from many different conditions, I've only seen one instance of respiratory arrest and it was in a COPD patient ( whole other set of circumstances going on with an end stage COPD patient).

I've seen pediatric patients with episodes of status epilepticus, which means one seizure after another not responsive to IV anti- seizure drugs, and never a resp. arrest. They are pale, or blue, or purple, but they are breathing. in my experience.

The reason we do not ordinarily give O2 to a person having a seizure EVEN when we cannot SEE respiratory effort but the person has a pulse between 60-140 ( seizures can elevate pulse rate temporarily) is because once a person becomes unconscious, in the absence of brain stem injury, the CO2 drive is the brain's trigger to initiate and continue respiration. Giving supplemental O2 decreases the amount of CO2, thus decreases the CO2 drive in the brain. In the home or with basic life support, there is no monitoring of the O2 saturation so you may be Supplemental O2 is usually only used when the person having a seizure is otherwise compromised by disease, extreme age, or otherwise medically fragile. ( except COPD or some other chronic respiratory diseases which requires more complex monitoring than can be explained here).

I can probably explain this better in reverse. When some children are learning about how to get attention, they learn that they can usually " scare mommy" by holding their breath until they temporarily lose consciousness. The short loss of consciousness is due to the low CO2 level.( Hyperventilation syndrome or hypocapnia is the medical term.) Some adults accidentally hyperventilate during anxiety attacks of a severe nature, and can accidentally briefly lose consciousness).

My CPR class and the EMT class my friend took both talked about making sure the airway was clear, regardless of the position the person is in, and to roll them on their side after the seizure is over because that's usually when vomiting occurs. Up thread someone said the same thing, so I don't believe there's a universal lesson if they're teaching some people that side is at the end and other people that side is ASAP.

[curlykate]

"Hang over the sink" makes it sound like she was unsupported. And it was likely because with young children who aren't at a risk of spine injuries, you're supposed to move them to a flat surface, preferably one you can stand at (hence the kitchen counter), when preparing for CPR (which Josie may have needed if the airway was blocked or she took a turn for the worse) (obviously you wouldn't leave them unattended, for those who were afraid of Josie getting injured despite being held the entire time); and the sink offered a place for her to discharge saliva and vomit when she came around.

Jana held her head and neck the entire time to keep her airway clear, so I don't see why it's an issue that she was over the sink. It's not like and just put her on her back and let her head dangle or whatever.

My post is farther up thread asking about Jana holding Josie's head over the sink, however I never considered it an issue. I was honestly asking why she would do that, as it seemed like an awkward way to hold her, to me. It just seems to me that if vomiting had been an issue, that she should have been on her side. Laying on her back with her head over the sink would just make it awkward to turn her to let her mouth drain, if it was necessary. But that's just my opinion. In an emergent situation like that, who cares if there's vomit to clean off the counter after? But we all react differently in stressful situations, and IMO, Jana did an excellent job of keeping Josie safe while waiting for help.

[BlackSheep]

Still cannot believe that Josie's parents did not immediately return to Arkansas upon receiving the news of Josie's illness.

Josie's health was not their TOP priority. Assholes.

Agreed. Go ahead and pray, but right after that: Get A Flight. Pack up your shit and Go Home.

And when you get home, be concerned about Josie and thankful toward Jana.

Boob and J'Chelle seem to have failed on all counts.

[SassyPants]

Agreed. Go ahead and pray, but right after that: Get A Flight. Pack up your shit and Go Home.

And when you get home, be concerned about Josie and thankful toward Jana.

Boob and J'Chelle seem to have failed on all counts.

I'd go one more...pack up your shit, get on the plane and THEN break out your pray books as you fly home; 2 birds, 1 stone.

JB and M act as if Josie is Jana's and GMMary's responsibility, instead of their miracle blessing.

[BrownieMomma]

I really have no respect for Michelle for leaving Josie: left the NICU to protest alcohol sales at a liquor store, left Josie and went out of the country, and left again for this Chicago trip, which makes me think there are probably a lot more leavings than we know about.

I understand Josie is functional and parents need a break but IMO a break is dinner out just Mom and Dad or overnight at a local B&B - time alone but close enough in event of emergency.

[BlackSheep]

I'd go one more...pack up your shit, get on the plane and THEN break out your pray books as you fly home; 2 birds, 1 stone.

JB and M act as if Josie is Jana's and GMMary's responsibility, instead of their miracle blessing.

Even better!

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

I really have no respect for Michelle for leaving Josie: left the NICU to protest alcohol sales at a liquor store, left Josie and went out of the country, and left again for this Chicago trip, which makes me think there are probably a lot more leavings than we know about.

I understand Josie is functional and parents need a break but IMO a break is dinner out just Mom and Dad or overnight at a local B&B - time alone but close enough in event of emergency.

I would really like to see how many days out of the year JB&M spend at home. I understand they don't have babies but the Lost girls and some of the Howlers are still quite young and need more hands-on care and stability. In their age group, it's really important to spend quality time with them individually, which is extremely hard to do if you are always out of town. I would say I'm concerned with their schooling but I highly doubt the Duggars gives two damns about education. It's like Michelle would do anything else BUT take care of her kids.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

According to be show, JB and Michelle did return the next day. I'm not sure how true to life that timeline is, but it is very possible that was the first flight back from wherever they were. Planes don't travel wherever the hell you want them to from wherever the hell you are at whatever time you want. And, since we haven't even figured out when this happened, it's hard to determine if they had JD and the plane at their disposal.

Also, I don't know why everyone thinks they didn't show any emotion towards Josie when they got home. They were hugging and cuddling her and Jana and some of the other kids. And, there's no telling how many retakes they did of the scene. The take they used may have been the last of 4+, at which point they had already properly greeted Josie, Jana, and GM, as well as talked about the hospital trip. Hell, they may have come home in the middle of the night, after Josie was already home and the crew had left; but the producers decided to film the "greeting" and use available daylight.

[SassyPants]

According to be show, JB and Michelle did return the next day. I'm not sure how true to life that timeline is, but it is very possible that was the first flight back from wherever they were. Planes don't travel wherever the hell you want them to from wherever the hell you are at whatever time you want. And, since we haven't even figured out when this happened, it's hard to determine if they had JD and the plane at their disposal.

Also, I don't know why everyone thinks they didn't show any emotion towards Josie when they got home. They were hugging and cuddling her and Jana and some of the other kids. And, there's no telling how many retakes they did of the scene. The take they used may have been the last of 4+, at which point they had already properly greeted Josie, Jana, and GM, as well as talked about the hospital trip. Hell, they may have come home in the middle of the night, after Josie was already home and the crew had left; but the producers decided to film the "greeting" and use available daylight.

When my daughter was hospitalized in So America last year after she had a baby, and I was traveling with my husband on the other side of the US, I was able to secure flights (multiple) and get to another continent within 20 hours time.

JOY- the Duggar parents could really work on the yourself last part of that concept.

[SassyPants]

The distance between Chicago and Springdale, AR = 647 miles. An easy 10 hour drive. They could have rented a car, hired a driver or taken the Gray dog and been home before the next day.

[griffin]

does anyone know why their son the pilot didn't fly them in their own family plane?

[RosyDaisy]

And at the time of the seizure in 2011 it was my impression the girls had had at least some first responder training.

Speaking of the 2011 event. JD was home and was paged to respond. WTH didn't somebody in the house just wake him up? That made no sense to me. When my husband watched that episode, it didn't make sense to him either. He said he doubts any of them know how to put on a band-aid let alone have any EMS/EMT training.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

When my daughter was hospitalized in So America last year after she had a baby, and I was traveling with my husband on the other side of the US, I was able to secure flights (multiple) and get to another continent within 20 hours time.

JOY- the Duggar parents could really work on the yourself last part of that concept.

Okay, again, the shows timeline says THE NEXT DAY. 20 hours is the next day. So I'm not sure why you're so "oh my god I'm so much better than them!"

Second, you completely ignored my statement about how it's very possible the timeline was altered just for continuity of the shots and the producers wanting a shot of JB/Michelle coming home.

[SassyPants]

Okay, again, the shows timeline says THE NEXT DAY. 20 hours is the next day. So I'm not sure why you're so "oh my god I'm so much better than them!"

Second, you completely ignored my statement about how it's very possible the timeline was altered just for continuity of the shots and the producers wanting a shot of JB/Michelle coming home.

From the reality that THEY put forth Via THEIR TV SHOW, I do not have to ponder whether I or most are better parents than the Duggars- it so apparent even Stevie Wonder could see.

A ten hour drive- they own a plane- they have money. There is no excuse for not immediately hightailing it back home. And let's be perfectly honest, had they done so, it would have been filmed and aired. Oh the drama of rushing around, trying to secure transportation to get home to see the miracle blessing as she is whisked into the CAT scanner; sitting in the waiting room awaiting the neurological report from the MD on call.

[RosyDaisy]

does anyone know why their son the pilot didn't fly them in their own family plane?

I'd like to know why also.

[halcionne]

I'd like to know why also.

We don't know enough about the timing to answer this question.

JD did fly to the Chicago area on September 11 and returned on September 12. It's not unreasonable to suppose that's when Josie seized, based on what we know of the weather, shooting schedule, etc. The FJ post below doesn't document what time of day they flew to Romeoville, but it indicates that they stayed overnight and were in the air the next day after 1 pm, if I'm adjusting time zones correctly.

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=23078&p=791538&hilit=romeoville#p791538

If Josie seized in the late afternoon of September 11 and JB&M were already gone, I wouldn't be surprised if Jim Bob and Michelle felt like Jana, Grandma, Deanna, and Scott could hold down the fort until they finished their Chicago appointment. Because, not gonna lie, I don't like them and I think their priorities are fucked up.

edited for clarity

[SassyPants]

I'd like to know why also.

And wouldn't this be one of the main reasons to have your OWN plane? So you can go any where you please without having to deal with the hassles of commercial travel, including securing seats, paying for seats and dealing with all the waiting around?

If one owned a plane and could not secure access to that plane in an emergency situation, which I think this qualifies as such, what's really the point of having the plane? I would think an emergency would trump other uses...and really how far away could JD and his accountability buddy have been at the time? 2 people, one would have been legally able to fly.

[antwan]

I'm pretty amazed everyone is upset at M referring to Josies seizure as a 'glitch', seeing as when *I* had a seizure at the age of 24 that's exactly how the doctors referred to it to me. As a brain glitch.

This ^^^^^

I didn't find it insensitive or troubling at all that Michelle referred to Josie's tendency toward seizures as a "glitch." I didn't get any sense of disconnect, insensitivity, or callousness in her use of the word. It's a word (just a word), and Michelle did strike me as concerned for her daughter.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

When JB and Michelle go to "appointments" in various parts of the country, do they ever fly commercial? Does JD usually fly them? I mean, I know if I bought my son a plane, I would be requesting him take me a place or two here and there.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

This ^^^^^

I didn't find it insensitive or troubling at all that Michelle referred to Josie's tendency toward seizures as a "glitch." I didn't get any sense of disconnect, insensitivity, or callousness in her use of the word. It's a word (just a word), and Michelle did strike me as concerned for her daughter.

As I sad up thread, my issue wasn't with calling seizures a glitch, my problem was with Michelle saying that seizures were "one of Josie's glitches," which implies that anything "different" about Josie is seen as a "glitch," and that's not a healthy view.

[RosyDaisy]

If they show any more trips to or charity events for Children's Hospital, I'm calling it as something is wrong with Josie.

That poor girl will grow up knowing every dirty diaper, accident, and illness will exist for eternity. Fuck you Duggars, TLC, etc.!