Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[nelliebelle1197]

I kind of think having a child and publicly keeping it in that culture is something of a sign you have at least let go of some of it in a truly major way. Is Susannah Keller even public enough to glean that info? Serious question.

[LittleOleMe]

I would say Suze is public enough - or was at the time - because she was keeping a very public Facebook and her two boyfriends supposedly came here to clear up rumors. So she's at least public enough for FJ.

I think living away from her family, working outside the home to support herself and her child because she's a single mother, and yes, wearing pants/sleeveless tops and cutting her hair, is a huge sign that she has left behind the ways of her upbringing. She can believe abortion and marriage equality are wrong all she wants. She didn't say "I'm keeping my baby because jesus says abortions are wrong" and make a huge show of it. As others have said, she doesn't need to change absolutely everything about her beliefs to leave behind fundamentalism. It's not simply a choice between wearing frumpers and pledging the security and purity of your hymen to your father until he transfer authority to your husband OR marching in gay pride parades during your break from working at the local planned parenthood.

[nelliebelle1197]

Must go look that up! I have never had much Keller- interest but that sounds juuuuicy!

[RosyDaisy]

How many times does it need to be said that ditching the skirts does not mean breaking away from the cult or taking baby steps. A lot of fundies are ditching the frumpers and skirts to create a more appealing image to lure in new members. For fucks sake Alyssa is married to the son of a U.S. Congressman who is deeply entrenched in IBLP. He has an image to maintain, and Alyssa is now toeing her husband's family line not her parents'.

[nelliebelle1197]

How many times does it need to be said that ditching the skirts does not mean breaking away from the cult or taking baby steps. A lot of fundies are ditching the frumpers and skirts to create a more appealing image to lure in new members. For fucks sake Alyssa is married to the son of a U.S. Congressman who is deeply entrenched in IBLP. He has an image to maintain, and Alyssa is now toeing her husband's family line not her parents'.

At least once a page.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

How many times does it need to be said that ditching the skirts does not mean breaking away from the cult or taking baby steps. A lot of fundies are ditching the frumpers and skirts to create a more appealing image to lure in new members. For fucks sake Alyssa is married to the son of a U.S. Congressman who is deeply entrenched in IBLP. He has an image to maintain, and Alyssa is now toeing her husband's family line not her parents'.

Whether its commonplace in the culture she was raised in or not, Alyssa is still going against the teachings that were pounded into her head by her parents. It might not be questioning the whole culture, but she's questioning her conditioning. And, she could toe her in-law's family line without ditching the skirts. There's nothing in their "family line" that says women cant wear skirts.

[singsingsing]

This argument is just going to go around and around in circles forever, an infinity loop of pants. Alyssa wearing jeans means something. No, it means nothing. No, something. No, nothing. Something. Nothing. Something. Nothing. Something. "Stop being such a leg humper omg!" "I'm not a leg humper!" "Shut your humper mouth!"

Anyway, I'm done. I think every point possible has been made in every conceivable way multiple times, and I'm not sure RosyDaisy can keep finding new ways to express her outrage and disgust. I respectfully bow out. :P

[PracticeMakesProgress]

Whether its commonplace in the culture she was raised in or not, Alyssa is still going against the teachings that were pounded into her head by her parents. It might not be questioning the whole culture, but she's questioning her conditioning. And, she could toe her in-law's family line without ditching the skirts. There's nothing in their "family line" that says women cant wear skirts.

Yes, we all can (mostly) agree it's a positive, but perhaps not definitive sign of progress. However, since I"m trying to be a raging optimist, maybe the fact that the fundie mothership is possibly changing its tune on dress is actually indicative of movement in a more progressive direction? Yes, we know Gil, and Paine Sr., etc. sit on the board of the evil empire, but with all of the scandal and Gothard aging, retracting, and generally pussing out of the picture, isn't there room for growth?

Do I believe that they will radically change? Absolutely not. But whether you are open to the idea or not, many of these people caught up in the cult are probably good, well-meaning people who just don't have the luxury of deep introspection and abstract thought regarding morality and religion, like ALL of us here on FJ :D

Maybe they will become so desperate to "convert" people that they will actually force themselves to look at the endless list of purposeless rules. Pretty much all Christians, whatever degree of fundie-ism, agree that "winning souls" is the top priority. Today, they allow lady pants. Tomorrow, maybe having A glass of wine isn't bad, since Jesus was doing it all throughout the NT.

Eventually, radical evangelical politics will get choked out of prominence. Don't worry, we're headed in that direction, hence the kneejerk bus tours and rallies. The fundies will have to regroup and review. And I will be here to welcome them, if they figure out how to access the internet without a parent password.

[amster]

Sorry, am I missing something? When has Alyssa ever publicly stated what her beliefs are? Has she ever come out in opposition to abortion, or gay marriage?

I've never seen Alyssa publicly support any kind of beliefs, religious or otherwise, outside of campaigning for family members like Zach and her FIL. Just because her parents have hateful, bigoted beliefs does not necessarily mean she does.

If my FIL was running for public office, I would support him. Doesn't mean we see eye to eye on all political or social issues. I don't have any siblings, but same goes in that situation. My father and I disagree on plenty of social issues, but I would be his most vocal campaigner if he ever stood for public office. I think he is a good man with a desire to do the right thing, but sometimes what I think is the right thing is not what he thinks is the right thing.

I don't see why Alyssa should be tarred with the same brush as her relatives. I love my husband, but didn't marry him because of who his family is. And I certainly didn't pick my family.

[jerkit]

Round and round in circles we go. Where this thread stops, nobody knows.

[actuallyjessica]

Sorry, am I missing something? When has Alyssa ever publicly stated what her beliefs are? Has she ever come out in opposition to abortion, or gay marriage?

I've never seen Alyssa publicly support any kind of beliefs, religious or otherwise, outside of campaigning for family members like Zach and her FIL. Just because her parents have hateful, bigoted beliefs does not necessarily mean she does.

If my FIL was running for public office, I would support him. Doesn't mean we see eye to eye on all political or social issues. I don't have any siblings, but same goes in that situation. My father and I disagree on plenty of social issues, but I would be his most vocal campaigner if he ever stood for public office. I think he is a good man with a desire to do the right thing, but sometimes what I think is the right thing is not what he thinks is the right thing.

I don't see why Alyssa should be tarred with the same brush as her relatives. I love my husband, but didn't marry him because of who his family is. And I certainly didn't pick my family.

exactly what i've been saying.

[ariel9]

She looks beautiful and stylish in the photo. Also count me in the wearing pants going against their beliefs. I mean these people go out of the way to be "modest". They avoid beaches with people, public water parks, pools, they swim in full clothes, run races in jeans, and ruin beautiful wedding dresses with tshirt. They think being modest protects them the same way we all would wear a seatbelt in a car. I mean that's the outfit both of their parents said was Nike.Yes she's may still have messed up beliefs but a lot of people do at the end of the day.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

I haven't commented on this because it has been fun to read all the comments.

All of this because ONE fundie took some picture wearing pants. Geez..yeah for her; she doesn't have to wear frumpers anymore and may actually get to shop at a regular store.

Yes I know the Bateseses are mean horrible people with evil thoughts.

I didn't even grow up fundie light. My parents sent me to church on Sunday's while they stayed home. I can't even tell you what my dad thought of homosexuals because it never came up. I stayed in church as an adult because it is the only thing I have ever known.

I was forty when I realized that it was okay to question the preacher and disagree with what he said. I am still on a journey and I know I am not there yet. Ya'll probably think I am fundie light while I think I am more moderate.

It is all about baby steps. Can we be okay with baby steps? Anything away from her parents is a step in the right direction.

Yes I know the Bateseses are evil mean people with horrible thoughts that want to take away all of our rights.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not commenting because I have some burning need for everyone to know how much I approve or disapprove of Alyssa or anyone else. I would hope that this board can be more than people going "yay, cute!" or "grrr, evil!" every time somebody posts a picture. I'm actually interested in reading about how different groups reconcile their beliefs and practices with the wider world.

[Grimalkin]

I just think she looks cute in pants. Since I have never seen a Bates women in pants it's worth mentioning. I don't know if it means anything.

[actuallyjessica]

people always mention whitney wearing pants (before courting zach) but i've never seen a picture. anyone?

[nolongerIFBx]

That may very well be true in your part of the world but be assured, it is not true here. It is a very big deal to dress to set apart from the world. The Duggars and Bates can cry modest all they want as the reason but I know enough and have been close enough to ATI folk to recognize they also value looking set apart.

If one of the young couples at my church posed for a pic like that, it would definitely be a great big FU to the church and everyone in it.

I second BrownieMomma in it being a very big deal to dress differently from "the world". Many people bragged gave testimony how someone would stop them in public and say, "You must be a Christian. I could tell by the way you were dressed." Of course, Jesus said that Christians would be known by their love for each other (John 13:35) not how they were dressed. . . :angry-banghead:

[browncoatslytherin]

I second BrownieMomma in it being a very big deal to dress differently from "the world". Many people bragged gave testimony how someone would stop them in public and say, "You must be a Christian. I could tell by the way you were dressed." Of course, Jesus said that Christians would be known by their love for each other (John 13:35) not how they were dressed. . . :angry-banghead:

even though there are sects of ati that allow women to wear pants, as previously said multiple times, the sects that are skirts-only are very adamant about being separate from the world. i wouldn't be a bit surprised if they looked at the pants-wearing women side-eyed for it. :shifty-kitty:

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Whether its commonplace in the culture she was raised in or not, Alyssa is still going against the teachings that were pounded into her head by her parents. It might not be questioning the whole culture, but she's questioning her conditioning. And, she could toe her in-law's family line without ditching the skirts. There's nothing in their "family line" that says women cant wear skirts.

Actually, if the father says the girls may wear pants, they may. NOT at ATI/IBLP events--they have a strict dress code. But at home it is up to Daddy. I knew an ATI family that went to our homeschool swim class--the teenage daughter wore a NORMAL tank-kini albeit in a larger size for nearly full coverage. The Duggars are pushing the "they CHOOSE to wear skirts" line. If the girls had, for example, actually SERVED as volunteer firefighters in a real fire fighting capacity and not a support role, then they would have had to wear pants for safety. If Dad approved that's ok. Even at Crown College the girls wear NORMAL basketball uniforms, but with layers and longer, baggier shorts.

Congressman Webster must appeal to ALL the GOP-not just the freak fringe. In Florida Mrs. Keller went to the beach in a normal, if dated, swimsuit and cover-up--not "Wholesomewhere" like the Duggars choose. Webster's family needs to be modest, of course, but they can't alienate voters either!

[lexiloumarie]

people always mention whitney wearing pants (before courting zach) but i've never seen a picture. anyone?

I believe it was from comments on the blog where Kelly mentioned that Whitey had begun to wear skirts after being convicted or something like that in Christianese.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I second BrownieMomma in it being a very big deal to dress differently from "the world". Many people bragged gave testimony how someone would stop them in public and say, "You must be a Christian. I could tell by the way you were dressed." Of course, Jesus said that Christians would be known by their love for each other (John 13:35) not how they were dressed. . . :angry-banghead:

I often say that if the most vocal of christians appeared in front of Jesus, he would treat them the way he treated pharisees

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Actually, if the father says the girls may wear pants, they may. NOT at ATI/IBLP events--they have a strict dress code. But at home it is up to Daddy. I knew an ATI family that went to our homeschool swim class--the teenage daughter wore a NORMAL tank-kini albeit in a larger size for nearly full coverage. The Duggars are pushing the "they CHOOSE to wear skirts" line. If the girls had, for example, actually SERVED as volunteer firefighters in a real fire fighting capacity and not a support role, then they would have had to wear pants for safety. If Dad approved that's ok. Even at Crown College the girls wear NORMAL basketball uniforms, but with layers and longer, baggier shorts.

Congressman Webster must appeal to ALL the GOP-not just the freak fringe. In Florida Mrs. Keller went to the beach in a normal, if dated, swimsuit and cover-up--not "Wholesomewhere" like the Duggars choose. Webster's family needs to be modest, of course, but they can't alienate voters either!

That doesn't change what I said. Alyssa was raised with the belief that pants = evil. It doesn't matter if her husband/his family say pants are okay. She still has to reconcile her decision to wear pants with her upbringing. And that means that there's questioning going on.

I really doubt that her husband looked at her and said "Alyssa, we've been married for a few months now, go put on some pants!" as if it was an order. So, this came of her own choice.

[Jessica]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Girl's only been "free" (and by that I mean married and not under her parents' watch) since May. She's not going to go from frumpers to gay pride rallies overnight!

[bluehydrangea]

I believe it was from comments on the blog where Kelly mentioned that Whitey had begun to wear skirts after being convicted or something like that in Christianese.

:lol: :lol: Christianese.

Put me in the "super excited to see Alyssa wearing pants" pile. How can we sit here and bitch about this? Switching from all-skirts to jeans and a tank top is a big deal, emotionally, when you're raised the way she was.

[Minnesota]

I find it interesting that some of her maternity photos are of her wearing pants. She's not hiding it from ma & pa.

[Janes Heir]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm going throw in my two cents on the "Is wearing pants progress?" question. Beginning to see the ridiculous arbitrariness of modesty rules was part of my journey away from fundamentalism. So Alysssa could go from an experience of going from realizing that pants are not sinful to starting to question her family's interpretation of scripture Gothard, and from there to questioning if an ancient text trumps the rights of women, slaves and lgbt people.

However, as has been pointed out, many fundies wear jeans. I used to be a self-righteous little 13 year old judging the older (home-schooled) teenagers at my church for their tight jeans and "frivolity". These people, however, would still be socially conservative in ways I've abandoned, because I was insatiably curious and had been taught the value of reading. In my opinion, there's less hope for Alyssa to move toward the more tolerant, good-citizen we want to see if the Bates and Websters are as anti-intellectual as the Duggars.

I think being married and having a baby could distract her from the kind of spiritual/philosophic crisis that she could have if she really explored the basis of the arbitrary rules she's been brought up with. Perhaps I'm judging others by my own personality, but it seems like "settling down" that young may lead to mental and spiritual complacency. "The thoughts of youth are long, long thoughts" and being plunged into an older role may make her miss out on that positive restless stage. On the other hand, maybe she'll want to do her best for her child and explore her own a priori positions in the process.