Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

And what about the poster (right above the two long posts on pants) that said they have quit watching the Bates' show because the skirts are TOO short and the shirts TOO tight? I nearly wet my pants!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lol does (s)he want the girls to dress like nuns?

[calimojo]

Lol does (s)he want the girls to dress like nuns?

That poster was a little bit nuts in my opinion. Kelly handled her response to them graciously.

People like that poster are just so dumb that it hurts to read what they write. To think that God cares a whit if someone is in a skirt or in a pair of jeans is ridiculous. In Biblical times, I doubt they had underwear or bras, and men wore long hair, and both wore gowns and robes. To think that the bible is telling people how to dress now, is about as dumb as it is to think we are to also follow the bible's rules about not wearing blended fabrics. Do these Fundies make sure they don't buy a cotton/poly blend? Not everything, in fact most things, in the bible translate to current life. Themes perhaps, such as forgiveness, love, not judging others, etc. But Not specific rules about how to live, because those rules were put in place for the times they were written. Not for thousands of years later.

I mean, to truly live biblically would be quite a challenge.

[JenniferJuniper]

My guess is the "snugger shirts and shorter skirts" poster is a troll having a bit of fun at Kelly's expense.

[16strong]

The fact that her responses were SO long is very telling for me. She's absolutely miffed and on the defensive end. She can wax poetic all she wants, but she is NOT HAPPY.

Kelly comes across as sweet and nice (which may be accurate), but I get the impression that lurking underneath is a very intelligent and calculating woman. I wouldn't want to step on her toes or cross paths with her when she's mad.

[calimojo]

Well, I wouldn't want to cross paths with a lot of people when they are mad, myself included. And I agree that Kelly does come across like a fairly intelligent woman, despite the wacky belief system. But I disagree that she is angry about the jeans and T shirts. I think if anything, she may have been angry that people are idiotic enough to actually ask her about it. I personally think it was a non-issue, but now that it has been brought up on their public page, it is likely to continue to be brought up. It is the downside to fame, I guess.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Well, I wouldn't want to cross paths with a lot of people when they are mad, myself included. And I agree that Kelly does come across like a fairly intelligent woman, despite the wacky belief system. But I disagree that she is angry about the jeans and T shirts. I think if anything, she may have been angry that people are idiotic enough to actually ask her about it. I personally think it was a non-issue, but now that it has been brought up on their public page, it is likely to continue to be brought up. It is the downside to fame, I guess.

I agree with this. I didn't pick up on a hostile tone in regards to the pants or sleeveless clothing. I saw someone who felt she had to defend herself and her family from people who expected them all to be the same. I saw someone who is accepting her child's decisions, even if they're not the decisions she wants her child to make. I see a woman who is trying to express that her family's dress code isn't a fixed state of right and wrong.

I think people are reading what they want to hear and not what is actually being said.

[calimojo]

that was my take on it as well. I thought she handled it very well

[Rachel333]

I didn't catch a hostile tone either, but those were some long replies!

Kelly wrote

Now as for what I would do if one of my married girls came to my house in pants, I would treat them like I treat anyone else who comes to visit…with love and with respect.

That's great to hear that she will respect her children's choices (I would really like to hear how Jim Bob and Michelle would honestly answer that question), but it's telling that she just says married girls. In their culture for girls to be considered real adults they have to be married. I wonder how she would feel if a single daughter started making her own choices like that.

[calimojo]

I didn't catch a hostile tone either, but those were some long replies!

Kelly wrote

That's great to hear that she will respect her children's choices (I would really like to hear how Jim Bob and Michelle would honestly answer that question), but it's telling that she just says married girls. In their culture for girls to be considered real adults they have to be married. I wonder how she would feel if a single daughter started making her own choices like that.

Yep, that is where the crazy crept in. Up until then she sounded like a nice, albeit conservative mom being open to her kids choices, and then the Gothardism sweeps in, and that qualifier or "married" daughter comes in.

While I don't think Kelly loses any sleep of sleeveless tops or Jeans, I do think it is clear that if Tori, for example, Decided she wanted to move out and live in an apartment, that would not be allowed. Or if allowed, it would be viewed as very rebellious and lots of praying would be going on.

The problem these fundie types have when they have a span of children over 20+ years, is that eventually one of the older kids will do something that the parents don't condone, and then they are faced with "Do we still allow the sinner in the house where they could influence the younger kids", Do we ask the Sinner to present themselves differently in front of the little kids, or do we avoid the sinner while we are still in charge of training up the other children? It might be very easy to explain that Alyssa and her husband are making some different choices about how they dress, but it would be very hard to explain why Tori, or Carlin or whoever, has rejected the idea of living under a headship (Father to husband). That would no doubt put ideas into the younger girl's heads.

Now maybe the Kelly and Gil would be fine if 2 of the girls moved out to an apt, if they still had parental control, such as the lease was in their name, and the rent was paid through them. The girls would pay Gil who would then pay the landlord. Then Gil would still be their headship. But I don't think that either Kelly or Gil really would encourage, let alone support one of their girls moving out until they were married.

[calimojo]

It looks to me, like the picture of Alyssa in the Blue sleeveless top has been taken off of her IG account. There is one with he husband at a restaurant but the baby bump picture is gone. I wonder if they got a lot of flack over that.

If so, Ugh, that would really make me angry. While Alyssa is still very young, she is an adult woman, married and expecting a baby. No one has the right to tell her how to dress.

[Mama Mia]

Amazing all the very different takes and opinions on what was meant on that one post by Kelly about her daughter wearing pants.

If we all can't agree on what she meant on that one tiny topic, read by us in real time in a common language..... How on earth can people be Biblical literalists????

[rosaline]

It looks to me, like the picture of Alyssa in the Blue sleeveless top has been taken off of her IG account. There is one with he husband at a restaurant but the baby bump picture is gone. I wonder if they got a lot of flack over that.

If so, Ugh, that would really make me angry. While Alyssa is still very young, she is an adult woman, married and expecting a baby. No one has the right to tell her how to dress.

This could just be my memory, but I thought she only ever had the restaurant pic in the blue sleeveless top. The two pics of her that clearly show her jeans from the maternity shoot were both from Macy Heim Photography's instagram (@maceyheimphotography), where they are still up.

[calimojo]

This could just be my memory, but I thought she only ever had the restaurant pic in the blue sleeveless top. The two pics of her that clearly show her jeans from the maternity shoot were both from Macy Heim Photography's instagram (@maceyheimphotography), where they are still up.

Oh, good, I hope you are right.

[calimojo]

Amazing all the very different takes and opinions on what was meant on that one post by Kelly about her daughter wearing pants.

If we all can't agree on what she meant on that one tiny topic, read by us in real time in a common language..... How on earth can people be Biblical literalists????

And I would like to think we are smarter than the average Fundie, or at least more well read and experienced in critical thinking. So yes, It is always interesting to me when people read or hear the same thing, but end up with different takes on it.

Have you ever been on a Jury? I was, a homicide case, a few years ago, and I was so sure that everyone would see things the same way I did and it was really surprising how many members of the jury heard the same testimony, but understood it differently than I did. I was so certain that I was right about what I had heard, and so were they. We did finally come to an agreement but it was really an eye opener for me.

[RosyDaisy]

I'm living with a man I'm not married to (yet...2 months until the wedding). That was a major no-no for my family. But, my dad liked my fiancée, knew at the time I needed help, saw that he genuinely loved and cared about me. Now he treats him like a son. My dad is not only walking me down the aisle, but insists on paying for the reception.

My parents believed in unconditional love, and they knew that my sister and would probably make decisions they didn't agree with, but they would never disown us or stop loving us

[nelliebelle1197]

I agree with this. I didn't pick up on a hostile tone in regards to the pants or sleeveless clothing. I saw someone who felt she had to defend herself and her family from people who expected them all to be the same. I saw someone who is accepting her child's decisions, even if they're not the decisions she wants her child to make. I see a woman who is trying to express that her family's dress code isn't a fixed state of right and wrong.

I think people are reading what they want to hear and not what is actually being said.

I see a woman who is rationalizing something she does not agree with at all and something she does believe is fixed. I think you are missing the whole point. She does think the dress code is important, it is enforced when adult children are in her house but she is resigned to the fact that she can't control what her adult children choose to do with their headships. She is not going to disown Alyssa over wearing jeans, but she does not approve. I think you are reading what you want to hear and not what is actually being said.

[Mama Mia]

I see a woman who is rationalizing something she does not agree with at all and something she does believe is fixed. I think you are missing the whole point. She does think the dress code is important, it is enforced when adult children are in her house but she is resigned to the fact that she can't control what her adult children choose to do with their headships. She is not going to disown Alyssa over wearing jeans, but she does not approve. I think you are reading what you want to hear and not what is actually being said.

I think she was very clear about the kids ( whatever their age ) having to follow her rules. And obviously she doesn't approve of pants. But I think it's a big stretch to go from not agreeing with something your children who live away from home do -- and being upset or angry that they do it.

My grown children don't always do things the way I would like -- but they are adults. The closest examples I can think of ( because we were as far from the Bates as I think it is possible to be) -- some of my kids really like some really violent rap. And would want to blare it, complete with N word, in the house. I did not want the n word blaring in the house so would tell them they couldn't play it where other people could hear it. Even when they were young adults living at home. Now that they have their own houses they cAn blare whatever they want. Not my house, not my business. I don't think any less of them for listening to whatever music they want. It doesn't impact my relationship with them.

I don't always approve of their political or child rearing beliefs either. But I try ( okay, I'm not perfect on this :embarrassed: ) to discuss things with them like I would any other adult. It doesn't mean I love them any less if I don't like all their choices. I think most people with grown children will have that come up.

[nelliebelle1197]

Where did I say she was upset or angry? I said she was resigned and rationalizing. I am disagreeing with the point that Kelly thinks the dress code is not a fixed state of right or wrong. It is fixed for her. Otherwise, it would not be required when the adult child is in her home. If she was accepting, as the previous poster stated, she would actually accept Alyssa the adult's preferred dress code since that is what acceptance means. Blaring music, which can actually disturb others in the house and even the neighbors, is not the same thing. That's teaching respect and manners when you ask your kids not to bother the whole house with Pantera.

[Mama Mia]

Where did I say she was upset or angry? I said she was resigned and rationalizing. I am disagreeing with the point that Kelly thinks the dress code is not a fixed state of right or wrong. It is fixed for her. Otherwise, it would not be required when the adult child is in her home. If she was accepting, as the previous poster stated, she would actually accept Alyssa the adult's preferred dress code since that is what acceptance means. Blaring music, which can actually disturb others in the house and even the neighbors, is not the same thing. That's teaching respect and manners when you ask your kids not to bother the whole house with Pantera.

But she doesn't say in her comments that she requires Alyssa to wear skirts when she comes to visit.

[Minnesota]

I wonder if Kelly is going to make it a rule that granddaughters have to wear skirts when visiting her. If it's a rule for her children I could see it becoming a rule for grandchildren.

[nelliebelle1197]

I wonder if Kelly is going to make it a rule that granddaughters have to wear skirts when visiting her. If it's a rule for her children I could see it becoming a rule for grandchildren.

Hmmm..... I may have misread- I took this

" We might be firm about certain rules with our children while they are in our home, because it is our home…but when they are out of our home, we should be just as respectful of them as they were of us."

to mean they have to follow Bates standards even when visiting.

[jerkit]

Hmmm..... I may have misread- I took this

" We might be firm about certain rules with our children while they are in our home, because it is our home…but when they are out of our home, we should be just as respectful of them as they were of us."

to mean they have to follow Bates standards even when visiting.

I think "while they are in our home" = "while they are living at home, before they are married"

[eh02]

My interpretation was that Kelly expected her children still living at home to follow all of her rules, and that once they were adults, they could do as they wanted in their own homes and lives, and that even though she'd welcome them into her house wearing pants, sleeveless shirts etc. that she expected/hoped that they would have enough respect for their parents to continue to follow the rules when they visit.

Which is pretty rational, honestly. I mean, I still don't like all of the rules they have when the kids ARE single and living at home, but at least she's not like some of the delusional other fundie parents that we follow who go apeshit and cut their children off when they start to wear pants and join a Methodist church...

[Mama Mia]

This is the part where she answers specifically about the married daughter's wearing pants to her house. It's at the end of the second pants comment. Where she says in several different ways that she hopes they follow her basic beliefs but okay with differences, not to judge, most of the people she loves don't follow their exact standards and so on ( and on and on)

"Now as for what I would do if one of my married girls came to my house in pants, I would treat them like I treat anyone else who comes to visit…with love and with respect. I think that because our children know our rules, they would try to be respectful while visiting, just out of love. They aren’t obligated to abide by any of our rules once married, but we are all very very close and I think that will cause each of us to treat each other with utmost kindness despite any little differences we might have in choices we make."

As a side note, I'm surprised that people think the poster who thought the Bates clothes weren't up to their standards was a Poe. If you look at how they dress now you really couldn't distinguish them from any other child/teen/twenty-something coming out of Target. It's a very, very different look than the loose frumpers and denim ankle length skirts and loose blouses that the hard core fundamentalists wear. I don't think it matters to some people if it's to increase their appeal or not -- those are still very modern, form fitting clothes.

[nausicaa]

As a side note, I'm surprised that people think the poster who thought the Bates clothes weren't up to their standards was a Poe. If you look at how they dress now you really couldn't distinguish them from any other child/teen/twenty-something coming out of Target. It's a very, very different look than the loose frumpers and denim ankle length skirts and loose blouses that the hard core fundamentalists wear. I don't think it matters to some people if it's to increase their appeal or not -- those are still very modern, form fitting clothes.

I agree about the clothes now looking fairly modern and not being hard core fundamentalist approved. But the person didn't just say the clothes weren't up to their standards, they said they would no longer watch the show. I just wonder why one would even own a television if Bringing Up Bates is considered too defrauding. Honestly, how much is there on TV that is less objectionable than BuB? Little House on the Prairie and Holy Rosary with Mother Angelica?