Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[rosaline]

Alyssa was wearing a sleeveless dress at her Southern Baptist (read: not IFB) church this morning.

Just saw the picture on her Instagram--it might even be a halter-top dress! Her hair is covering the top so I can't tell for sure.

[Mama Mia]

I bet they would start praying a hedge of thorns around any daughter who decided to be slightly independent without a husband. And yes, a hedge of thorns is really a thing in ATI. If one of your adult children starts living in a way that you don't approve you pray that horrible things happen to them until they start living the life you want them to live.

Gil and Kelly give an IBLP lecture about the dangers of sensual women. I bet they are annoyed that they now have a daughter who isn't just wearing pants(because that isn't that huge of a deal) but is wearing really tight pants with sleeveless shirts. I think they expected pants, just not that tight of pants. In the one maternity picture with black pants those look almost like leggings.

The way you describe it makes me think that these ATI people look at any kind of going against the parents beliefs in their teen/adult children the same way many people look at hard core addiction/ criminal activity in their kids.

Like how if your kid is running with gangs or shooting up and stealing from you -- some people will go all tough-love in the hopes the kid will have bad things happen and realize before they are dead that they need to straighten up. Or how ATI etc.. Seems to view homosexuality as something " treatable" that will cause their child to have a horrible life if it isn't fixed - is similar to a parent sending their kid to rehab.

I had some kids who made some really horrible choices as teens/young adults. I had others who were more easy going but would have been considered completely hell-bound by these people's standards. I can't even imagine the amount of anxiety and stress that would have been my day-to-day existence if I had to worry about things like clothes or dating! I would of literally died from how overwhelming it would be...and with more than twice as many kids :shock: how are they not a wreck 24/7?

[calimojo]

alyssa posted a nice reply to the people who were judging her for wearing a red dress without sleeves to church. She replied very maturely for someone so young.

Most of the replies on IG were pretty positive and supportive of her. A few were the usual "God has things to say about modesty" bs.

[carebaer]

'Year of Living Biblically' is awesome and most definitely worth full price. It's hilarious, informative and insightful. A.J. Jacobs is a great writer so check out his other books as well - he wrote one about reading the entire Encyclopedia Britannica (I think that was it) and one about trying to follow every bit of health advice.

You might also try "A Year of Biblical Womanhood" by Rachel Held Evans. It sounds similar, except she focuses on biblical expectations Christian groups place on women.

[Mandysue]

You might also try "A Year of Biblical Womanhood" by Rachel Held Evans. It sounds similar, except she focuses on biblical expectations Christian groups place on women.

This is one of my favorite books. I was able to meet Rachel a couple of years ago. She is wonderful.

I love what she did in the book.

[bal maiden]

alyssa posted a nice reply to the people who were judging her for wearing a red dress without sleeves to church. She replied very maturely for someone so young.

Most of the replies on IG were pretty positive and supportive of her. A few were the usual "God has things to say about modesty" bs.

Could you share what the reply said? I can't seem to find it on her Instagram.

[formergothardite]

The way you describe it makes me think that these ATI people look at any kind of going against the parents beliefs in their teen/adult children the same way many people look at hard core addiction/ criminal activity in their kids.

Like how if your kid is running with gangs or shooting up and stealing from you -- some people will go all tough-love in the hopes the kid will have bad things happen and realize before they are dead that they need to straighten up. Or how ATI etc.. Seems to view homosexuality as something " treatable" that will cause their child to have a horrible life if it isn't fixed - is similar to a parent sending their kid to rehab.

I had some kids who made some really horrible choices as teens/young adults. I had others who were more easy going but would have been considered completely hell-bound by these people's standards. I can't even imagine the amount of anxiety and stress that would have been my day-to-day existence if I had to worry about things like clothes or dating! I would of literally died from how overwhelming it would be...and with more than twice as many kids :shock: how are they not a wreck 24/7?

Well one of the draws to IBLP/ATI is that the kids are supposedly going to grow up to be mini-versions of their parents. So when a kid grows up and wants to do something crazy like move out of the house without being married or if it is a daughter, go to a real college and plan for a career instead of marriage, the parents often want to do something to make them live up to their expectations. Praying God curses them until they come back into the hedge of protection is the easiest way. And since poorly educated young adults with no job experience, no real life experience and often no support system will usually struggle trying to make it on their own, the parents can tell the other kids that God is cursing their sibling for being independent.

It is a really damaging way to live for everyone, but especially the kids who are raised like this.

[Rachel333]

The way you describe it makes me think that these ATI people look at any kind of going against the parents beliefs in their teen/adult children the same way many people look at hard core addiction/ criminal activity in their kids.

I think that's exactly how they view it. Even my parents, who are fundie lite at most, told me when they found out I had visited an LDS church that they would rather have me be addicted to hard drugs than get involved in any non-Christian religion. I got a similar reaction when I mentioned a Baha'i meeting, which I had no intention of going to.

Your child going to hell is the absolute worst thing they can imagine and one of the biggest measures of success is having your children grow up to be faithful Christians. To a lot of parents it really would be worse for their child to be a criminal than an atheist.

That's just Evangelicals, so when you're talking about fundies it's magnified much more and there is a much wider range of things a child can do that would constitute rebellion.

I feel worst for the kids in that situation, but I do have some sympathy for the parents as well. It's a horrible way for anyone to live.

[church_of_dog]

Could you share what the reply said? I can't seem to find it on her Instagram.

Me either -- I can scroll down through a dozen or so comments, but there are clearly more that I just can't see -- I guess you have to have an account to see them all?

[Howl]

Maybe she's not being a rebel because she's wearing pants. Maybe her headship says it's ok, and that makes it ok. Maybe he even demands it. That's how patriarchy works, right? People were speculating that Jessa and Jill would wear pants soon b/c it's probably ok with their headship. Maybe they Photoshop her pants out of the picture b/c they still aren't ok with pants, but they can't say anything became Gil transferred his authority to John. Gil it's a true believer. Jim Bob would be pissed at his lack of control, but Gil really believes in those Gothard arbitrary rules.

This was my thinking exactly. New headship calls the shots!

[rosaline]

Me either -- I can scroll down through a dozen or so comments, but there are clearly more that I just can't see -- I guess you have to have an account to see them all?

I found the comment she wrote:

"I know that some things I do may not please everyone and I am sorry. Me and my husband [sic] have decided rules for "our" family and it's what we feel is best. I hope the few of you who disagree with our decisions will respect the fact that they are "our" choices and not mandated for anyone else. I hope that I haven't offend [sic] any of you. A huge thank you to each one of you who rallied around me. You all are very kind! Sincerely, Alyssa Webster."

[eh02]

Alyssa looks cute and of course, in most people's terms, is still dressed fairly conservatively. Most of all, I'm glad she looks happy and confident and doesn't seem too afraid of these changes pissing anyone off.

I do have to say I am a little surprised she'd be wearing it at church. Most churches are more casual these days, but for someone with her background, it does seem pretty "out there" to be wearing a short, sleeveless dress at a Sunday service. These people take church so seriously and usually still look pretty conservative while they are at service, even if they dress "normally" at home.

I think Kelly is genuinely more open-minded about things like clothing choices than some other fundies, but I bet she is still PISSED that Alyssa is showing shoulders and knees in the Lord's House. :D

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Alyssa looks cute and of course, in most people's terms, is still dressed fairly conservatively. Most of all, I'm glad she looks happy and confident and doesn't seem too afraid of these changes pissing anyone off.

I do have to say I am a little surprised she'd be wearing it at church. Most churches are more casual these days, but for someone with her background, it does seem pretty "out there" to be wearing a short, sleeveless dress at a Sunday service. These people take church so seriously and usually still look pretty conservative while they are at service, even if they dress "normally" at home.

I think Kelly is genuinely more open-minded about things like clothing choices than some other fundies, but I bet she is still PISSED that Alyssa is showing shoulders and knees in the Lord's House. :D

Maybe it's just the areas I've lived in, but Alyssa wouldn't have stuck out in any of the churches I've attended. If she wore that getup on a big holiday like Easter, that would be one thing. But thats a lot classier than I see from a lot of church goers on a regular Sunday.

[LittleOleMe]

I found the comment she wrote:

"I know that some things I do may not please everyone and I am sorry. Me and my husband [sic] have decided rules for "our" family and it's what we feel is best. I hope the few of you who disagree with our decisions will respect the fact that they are "our" choices and not mandated for anyone else. I hope that I haven't offend [sic] any of you. A huge thank you to each one of you who rallied around me. You all are very kind! Sincerely, Alyssa Webster."

Why is "our" in quotes?? I can sort of understand why the first one is .. sort of .. but there's no need for the second one to be in quotes. That's just weird.

And good for her for standing up and saying that she's wearing pants and doesn't really care if other people don't like it.

[Escapefromfundiedom]

My impression on the "our" was that it was used to emphasize. As in "these our OUR choices" vs "YOUR choices."

I thought her reply was a daintily worded step off bitches and I loved it. ;-)

[nelliebelle1197]

They might be slightly annoyed, but I don't think it is a big deal to them because Alyssa, pants or not, is still doing the thing she was expected to do, have babies. So she is building up that ultra conservative child army. She is not working outside of the home, unless she is helping hubby with the office cleaning job. So I don't think she has stepped to far away from the lifestyle yet.

I think if they had a kid who openly rejected the no birth control and embraced family planning that would be more upsetting to them. If they had a daughter or DIL who worked outside the home and put the kids in daycare or public school, that would bother them far more than wearing jeans or sleeveless shirts.

It is all the same. Immodesty is a huge deal. You have never been fundy, have you?

Btw, Alyssa is working and several other bates girls work.

[calimojo]

They might be working, but they are not "career" women at this point. I think they are probably ok with the women who don't have babies yet, but if they were pursuing a career rather than a part time job here and there That would be different.

And as far as Alyssa, I think she is home during the day, but she might be working with her husband with that office cleaning service in the evenings. I think she worked at her Aunt's flower shop when she was still living at home.

[16strong]

Wearing sleeveless tops/dresses in a mainstream church is not a big deal, especially in Florida. Where she lives, the weather never gets very cold, and most people dress with that in mind.

[eh02]

Wearing sleeveless tops/dresses in a mainstream church is not a big deal, especially in Florida. Where she lives, the weather never gets very cold, and most people dress with that in mind.

I didn't mean it was weird to wear that dress to church at all. I mean it is unexpected for anyone so fresh out of the no-bare-shoulders fundie lifestyle to feel comfortable wearing her "new clothes" on a Sunday. Considering how religious Alyssa still appears to be, and how conservative her background is, I personally never would have expected her to wear something like that to church. I mean, I wasn't shocked to see her in pants overall, but church is another ballgame.

[nelliebelle1197]

Someone up thread mentioned Alyssa was not at an IFB church. As far as I know, you don't have to be IFB to be ATI/IBLP. You can go to any church or start your own church. It's supposedly a set of principals by which to live your life, not a denomination. FG can correct me if I am wrong, but as long as you are a particularly fundie Christian, you can be a gothardite. I don't think the Calvinists cross over much, but I am pretty sure super conservative SBC members have crossed over. I am pretty shocked at how conservative SBC has gotten in last 25 years. My high school mega church in Florida (my uncle was the pastor) has stuff on its website now that shocks me and seems much more IFB (my uncle is now doing actual mission work like building stuff for state SBC convention mission boards. He is in Kenya right now. I should have him hop over and visit Shrader).

[nelliebelle1197]

I didn't mean it was weird to wear that dress to church at all. I mean it is unexpected for anyone so fresh out of the no-bare-shoulders fundie lifestyle to feel comfortable wearing her "new clothes" on a Sunday. Considering how religious Alyssa still appears to be, and how conservative her background is, I personally never would have expected her to wear something like that to church. I mean, I wasn't shocked to see her in pants overall, but church is another ballgame.

You know, her Pinterest was always scattered with hooker shoes and her idea of fashion, so I am not surprised. She always seemed to like clothes. That is one big reason I don't think the dress code change is any sort of signal for Alyssa. I don't think she ever bought that portion of the ATI code, based on that tacky stuff she'd post on Pinterest before she was married.

She was also around people like the Websters and plenty of others at ATI functions and events who did not follow the gothard dress standard and we're still good little soldiers for billy boy got hard.

[LittleOleMe]

My impression on the "our" was that it was used to emphasize. As in "these our OUR choices" vs "YOUR choices."

I thought her reply was a daintily worded step off bitches and I loved it. ;-)

I got that it was to emphasize and that why I said I can sort us see it for the first one. But there's no need to emphasize the second. That's why I find it odd.

But I do agree. It's a very carefully worded reply that is essentially telling everyone to fuck off. :D

[jinseng]

I was waiting for this to happen. Even in the 'courtship' pics of her and John Webster, I thought her top was extremely tight... She obviously made an appeal to her father that she be allowed to wear tighter clothes and high heels instead of flats all the time and so I think he must have made a compromise with her so that she would not wear pants. I think she started to express herself a lot in her footwear, because her shoes became more and more outrageous. I always think the first sign of 'rebelion' in girls from these families is in their earrings. They get bigger, more colourful, more expressive, and more dangly.

I am sure she will continue to push the boundaries with her clothes, given that she's never had any freedom before to dress how she likes. Susannah Keller dressed very slutty for a while there, until she eventually settled down into a more normal level. She used to post pics of herself on facebook wearing teeny tiny dresses that were so short and tight most 'normal' people on the street would have been a bit shocked by her slutty attire.

I recall Kelly mentioning in a blog comment to someone that in the lead up to the wedding she was just feeling pretty grumpy and 'moping around the house' all the time, because she just wanted to the wedding to be over because she missed John so much and wanted to be with him all the time. I thought that was quite a strange situation, given how much they like to reiterate the close-knit family bonds. It seems like she was getting pretty sick of playing by the family rules and was more than ready to exit.

I think her lack of control in that environment also lead her to develop an eating disorder. Her natural frame is quite similar to the other bates girls (who carry a healthy, ripe appearance). but in the lead up to the wedding, she was very underweight. She still is quite skinny probably due to the stress of so much change happening at once. Hopefully her weight will stabalise as she settles into being a wife and mother in florida etc.

[nokidsmom]

I didn't mean it was weird to wear that dress to church at all. I mean it is unexpected for anyone so fresh out of the no-bare-shoulders fundie lifestyle to feel comfortable wearing her "new clothes" on a Sunday. Considering how religious Alyssa still appears to be, and how conservative her background is, I personally never would have expected her to wear something like that to church. I mean, I wasn't shocked to see her in pants overall, but church is another ballgame.

I agree that Alyssa wearing a sleeveless top/dress in church this quickly is something of note. Sure, it's typical for Florida but for her to embrace it so quickly after leaving her parent's home and their dress code, especially for church, say something.

I am thinking Alyssa is thrilled to leave her parent's home. I really do. Not to say she doesn't love them, of course she does, but she may have chafed under some of the strictures. Now I am beginning to see why she married at 19. I thought she was a bit young for it, but it was her dash for freedom hand in hand with her guy. She's totally lovin' it.

[JillyO]

I really wish we weren't calling anyone's clothing choices "slutty" or "hooker clothes."